Miley Cyrus VMA performance and modern views on sex and race

[Northern Dominus]

Let's see, there's this:


And this, specifically the highlighted section:

It seems to be that the color of the dancer's skin is more of an issue than the fetishizing of a particular part of her anatomy, which to me smacks of a bit of a disconnect here.

Because you're going to ignore everything else, including what the implication of what they're saying in order to do so? To essentially say, "You people noticing the racism, you're the racists for noticing?"

Is that really the tune you want to play?

Again, I'm being fairly direct despite your allegations;

I seriously don't think you understand my allegations any more than you seem to understand what everyone else is saying.

would changing the skin tone of the dancer in question have resulted in Miley Cyrus' performance being any less "insensitive"?

Why in the fuck do you keep asking this question when it's been answered? I don't understand this. I really don't. I also don't really know any other way of telling you that asking this question continues to miss the point. It would never be dancers of another race in this scenario, that's kind of the point. It's like asking if a depiction of an Asian woman as a Geisha or Dragon Lady would be okay if you used a white women, it's a non-sequitor.

And if so then you have to wonder who really has the problem, Miley or the people looking to stick her with that label?

It's with the people who refuse to take context into account.

Yeah... not exactly comparable. Got anything better than an association fallacy?

Except it really kind of is. That's been the point the entire time, that in as much as there is a history of associating blackness with chattle there is a history of exoticising parts of the culture and appropriating it as an expression of sexuality. So when Ms Cyrus uses cues from a black sub-culture in this manner it's not a case of "Oh my god Miley hates black people!", that's not what's being said. What instead is being said is that Ms. Cyrus' performance was part of a long tradition of how sub-culture and 'otherness' has been utilized by the predominant culture.

But this has been explained over and over again. So I'm guessing I can look forward to being asked once again about changing the race of the dancers as if that was the point, that simply her back up dancers were black. Good grief.

Except the clarion call is RACISM!1!eleven!!!11!!!!!one!!1! is being peddled with the same sort of stading (see: lack of) as the SLUT!!!1!!!one!!!!1!!eleven11!!
card. It's the same sort of association fallacy that ignores that cross-pollination of pop culture.

Nazis in space said it best, so read it again:

Wikipedia gets me a total of six black musicians with whom Miley Cyrus has cooperated.

For some reason, this makes me think less 'She's a filthy racist who disparages black culture', and more 'She likes the things she's come into contact with and decided to adopt them'.

All of this is, of course, assuming that 1. that entire shenanigans can be counted as 'Black Culture' in the first place (Highly questionable, given how the relevant genres have spread considerably beyond mere black musicians), and speaking of which, trying to simultaneously claim a certain kind of performance to be 'Black' and 'Bad' strikes me as all so slightly problematic.

Hm. Actually, since we have these cooperating musicians (And the background dancers), maybe we could ask them instead of outraged middle class whities about what they think about the performance?

So as NIS said, let's ask the dancers instead of the raging middle-class alabaster folks shall we?

[Nazis in Space]

Wikipedia gets me a total of six black musicians with whom Miley Cyrus has cooperated.

For some reason, this makes me think less 'She's a filthy racist who disparages black culture', and more 'She likes the things she's come into contact with and decided to adopt them'.

All of this is, of course, assuming that 1. that entire shenanigans can be counted as 'Black Culture' in the first place (Highly questionable, given how the relevant genres have spread considerably beyond mere black musicians), and speaking of which, trying to simultaneously claim a certain kind of performance to be 'Black' and 'Bad' strikes me as all so slightly problematic.

Hm. Actually, since we have these cooperating musicians (And the background dancers), maybe we could ask them instead of outraged middle class whities about what they think about the performance?

I don't think most of us think she did it intentionally to thumb her nose at black people and black culture. We are at this point assuming she did this through ignorance. Which makes pointing it out more important, someone who is knowingly racist can not simply be educated.

Hm. I admit that I didn't exactly follow the thread throughout all thirty pages, but the first five or so at least, gave a... Considerably different impression.

[Hexhamshire]

She's gone from being a children's child star entertainer for children to hitting 20 alongside all of her fans and is basically growing up on screen.

Billie Piper, who you may know as Rose Tyler out of Doctor Who went on to start in The Secret Diary Of A Call Girl to every Daily Mail reader's apparent shock, but before that she was married to Chris Evans in an attempt to show how grown up she was...

Here she is at 16 full of teen empowerment and cutesiness here she is again long before Doctor Who, back when the Spice Girls were big, singing about a teen crush on an ever so cool older guy.

Then there's Charlotte Church who went from Having the Voice Of An Angel^TM to making the devil's music before her previous audience died out.

It's happened so many times before and they've had to do it to hold onto some sort of relevance. Some, like Alanis Morrisette actualy had a bigger career after they cast off the kiddie friendly image which they had to.

Miley Cyrus' twerking really is no big deal, could help her career, will extend her career and I'd rather see her twerk on stage burn on gruesomely on drugs, child stars have done far worse.

[Terran Faction]

Disney sure likes whoring up their stars to adult age.
(I know she's not with Disney anymore, but almost every young star that was on Disney TV becomes too raunchy)

[Cannot think of a name]

Because you're going to ignore everything else, including what the implication of what they're saying in order to do so? To essentially say, "You people noticing the racism, you're the racists for noticing?"

Is that really the tune you want to play?

I seriously don't think you understand my allegations any more than you seem to understand what everyone else is saying.

Why in the fuck do you keep asking this question when it's been answered? I don't understand this. I really don't. I also don't really know any other way of telling you that asking this question continues to miss the point. It would never be dancers of another race in this scenario, that's kind of the point. It's like asking if a depiction of an Asian woman as a Geisha or Dragon Lady would be okay if you used a white women, it's a non-sequitor.

It's with the people who refuse to take context into account.

Except it really kind of is. That's been the point the entire time, that in as much as there is a history of associating blackness with chattle there is a history of exoticising parts of the culture and appropriating it as an expression of sexuality. So when Ms Cyrus uses cues from a black sub-culture in this manner it's not a case of "Oh my god Miley hates black people!", that's not what's being said. What instead is being said is that Ms. Cyrus' performance was part of a long tradition of how sub-culture and 'otherness' has been utilized by the predominant culture.

But this has been explained over and over again. So I'm guessing I can look forward to being asked once again about changing the race of the dancers as if that was the point, that simply her back up dancers were black. Good grief.

Except the clarion call is RACISM!1!eleven!!!11!!!!!one!!1! is being peddled with the same sort of stading (see: lack of) as the SLUT!!!1!!!one!!!!1!!eleven11!!
card. It's the same sort of association fallacy that ignores that cross-pollination of pop culture.

Nazis in space said it best, so read it again:

Wikipedia gets me a total of six black musicians with whom Miley Cyrus has cooperated.

For some reason, this makes me think less 'She's a filthy racist who disparages black culture', and more 'She likes the things she's come into contact with and decided to adopt them'.

All of this is, of course, assuming that 1. that entire shenanigans can be counted as 'Black Culture' in the first place (Highly questionable, given how the relevant genres have spread considerably beyond mere black musicians), and speaking of which, trying to simultaneously claim a certain kind of performance to be 'Black' and 'Bad' strikes me as all so slightly problematic.

Hm. Actually, since we have these cooperating musicians (And the background dancers), maybe we could ask them instead of outraged middle class whities about what they think about the performance?

So as NIS said, let's ask the dancers instead of the raging middle-class alabaster folks shall we?

Wait, did you just tell me it's okay because Ms. Cyrus has a black friend? Really?

[Seriong]

Except the clarion call is RACISM!1!eleven!!!11!!!!!one!!1! is being peddled with the same sort of stading (see: lack of) as the SLUT!!!1!!!one!!!!1!!eleven11!!
card. It's the same sort of association fallacy that ignores that cross-pollination of pop culture.

Nazis in space said it best, so read it again:


So as NIS said, let's ask the dancers instead of the raging middle-class alabaster folks shall we?

Wait, did you just tell me it's okay because Ms. Cyrus has a black friend? Really?

Yep, that is in no way ignoring what he said, nor are you intentionally misunderstanding.

[Cannot think of a name]

Wait, did you just tell me it's okay because Ms. Cyrus has a black friend? Really?

Yep, that is in no way ignoring what he said, nor are you intentionally misunderstanding.

Hey, Middle of the Conversation Man...thanks for your input but in fact it is almost exactly what he's saying. The conceit here is that black people participated, ergo it's not racism because they're okay with it. That's essentially the same thing as saying "I'm not racist, I have a black friend!"

Have you heard of Amos and Andy? You know, the show that played on negative stereotypes of black people in America and was one of the most popular shows in the history of television? Was it 'not racist' because they got black actors to do the portrayals on television? Did that make the show "okay"?

Or do you know that people can have varied opinions on a subject? That the mere presence of a black person isn't some sort of stamp that makes your actions not suddenly happening in the cultural context, that calling it a cross cultural moment doesn't excuse it from being just as clumsy or in the same narrative as other often clumsy or demeaning cross cultural moments.

So thanks for your insight, but it seems very much like trying to excuse the conversation by saying it's okay because she has black friends.

[Tahar Joblis]

But again, why would it magically be better if it were a white or asian or latia or purple or lizard woman?

Read the fucking thread, dude. The context has been laid out, explained, re-explained, linked to articles that explain it. You can't just throw your papers in the air and say everything's invalid because you haven't caught up with the rest of the class.

The context being that she is displaying the stylistic influences of the musicians she has been working with and looks up to?

When you've decided whiteness is both necessary and sufficient to cry "racism" and "appropriation" over a performance, it's not individual context you're relying on. You're just burning incense at the altar of racial segregation and manufacturing outrage about crossing color lines.

[Cannot think of a name]

Read the fucking thread, dude. The context has been laid out, explained, re-explained, linked to articles that explain it. You can't just throw your papers in the air and say everything's invalid because you haven't caught up with the rest of the class.

The context being that she is displaying the stylistic influences of the musicians she has been working with and looks up to?

When you've decided whiteness is both necessary and sufficient to cry "racism" and "appropriation" over a performance, it's not individual context you're relying on. You're just burning incense at the altar of racial segregation and manufacturing outrage about crossing color lines.

Nothing happens in a vacuum TJ, and hardly anything is 'just' something. But you've made a posting career out of ignoring these things, so I don't expect anything new.

[Nazis in Space]

I think we can safely come to the conclusion that liking what a bunch of blacks you're working with do, and deciding to adopt some of their ideas is fundamentally racist because according to decidedly anti-racist middle class whities, the things a bunch of blacks you're working with do are fundamentally bad and should be restricted to 'Their Kind'.

[Distruzio]

I think we can safely come to the conclusion that liking what a bunch of blacks you're working with do, and deciding to adopt some of their ideas is fundamentally racist because according to decidedly anti-racist middle class whities, the things a bunch of blacks you're working with do are fundamentally bad and should be restricted to 'Their Kind'.

Can't argue with the truth of it.

[Cannot think of a name]

I think we can safely come to the conclusion that liking what a bunch of blacks you're working with do, and deciding to adopt some of their ideas is fundamentally racist because according to decidedly anti-racist middle class whities, the things a bunch of blacks you're working with do are fundamentally bad and should be restricted to 'Their Kind'.

So, following this logic through, if we find a black woman, for example, who isn't okay with it, are we allowed to actually have the conversation?

[Nazis in Space]

I think we can safely come to the conclusion that liking what a bunch of blacks you're working with do, and deciding to adopt some of their ideas is fundamentally racist because according to decidedly anti-racist middle class whities, the things a bunch of blacks you're working with do are fundamentally bad and should be restricted to 'Their Kind'.

So, following this logic through, if we find a black woman, for example, who isn't okay with it, are we allowed to actually have the conversation?

You can - and evidently do - have it without one, too. It doesn't change a thing about the basic thought process being woefully close to 'The shit rappers do in their performances is bad and proper white/ oreo people shouldn't do it'. Basically, the vibes I get from some - certainly, not all, but it is noticeable - comments, re: Ms. Cyrus performance is 'She shouldn't behave like a wigger'. The implication being that a white female associating with this kind of cultural expression is bad, as it's an expression of quasi-animalistic oversexualisation that, apparently, should be restricted to the people it 'Belongs to' (See comments, re: 'Twerking belongs to blacks' in this thread).

I'm sure you can spot the problem with this attitude.

If 'Oversexualisation = Bad', we've a restriction on the freedom of expression for women.

If 'Oversexualisation = Bad, but it belongs to blacks', then we have the implication of blacks being oversexualised animals who cannot change because it's inherent to their DNA or something.

Now, the woman whose critique you linked actually does have (Sort of) a point - I don't agree with her with regards to racist attitudes for earlier-mentioned reasons, re: Miley Cyrus' social environment and history (I also seem to recall her engaging in comparable shenanigans involving a white stripper before), but I'll happily agree with her that the simultaneous sexualisation and marginalisation of (Non-Starring) women in the music video industry is a thing. But... This is universal, and not even remotely tied to race. Is it a good thing? No (Whether it's particularly bad is a different question, but I digress). But it's really, really, really not something one can feasibly build a race-issue from.

[Cameroi]

shock value sells news. this is news?

[Lordieth]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but;

Miley Cyrus says she is "messed up".

The We Can't Stop hitmaker - who recently shocked fans with her racy performance at the MTV Video Music Awards last weekend - admitted she has "issues" and struggles taking much-needed breaks from work.

Speaking to the Sunday People newspaper, she said: "I'm messed up ... I have so many f***ing issues.

"I am so f***ed up - everyone does dumb stuff when they are messed up.

http://tvnz.co.nz/entertainment-news/mi ... up-5551746

Kind of reinforces the whole off-the-rails theory.

[Cannot think of a name]

So, following this logic through, if we find a black woman, for example, who isn't okay with it, are we allowed to actually have the conversation?

You can - and evidently do - have it without one, too. It doesn't change a thing about the basic thought process being woefully close to 'The shit rappers do in their performances is bad and proper white/ oreo people shouldn't do it'. Basically, the vibes I get from some - certainly, not all, but it is noticeable - comments, re: Ms. Cyrus performance is 'She shouldn't behave like a wigger'. The implication being that a white female associating with this kind of cultural expression is bad, as it's an expression of quasi-animalistic oversexualisation that, apparently, should be restricted to the people it 'Belongs to' (See comments, re: 'Twerking belongs to blacks' in this thread).

I'm sure you can spot the problem with this attitude.

If 'Oversexualisation = Bad', we've a restriction on the freedom of expression for women.

If 'Oversexualisation = Bad, but it belongs to blacks', then we have the implication of blacks being oversexualised animals who cannot change because it's inherent to their DNA or something.

Now, the woman whose critique you linked actually does have (Sort of) a point - I don't agree with her with regards to racist attitudes for earlier-mentioned reasons, re: Miley Cyrus' social environment and history (I also seem to recall her engaging in comparable shenanigans involving a white stripper before), but I'll happily agree with her that the simultaneous sexualisation and marginalisation of (Non-Starring) women in the music video industry is a thing. But... This is universal, and not even remotely tied to race. Is it a good thing? No (Whether it's particularly bad is a different question, but I digress). But it's really, really, really not something one can feasibly build a race-issue from.

This is what I've been suspecting all along, that really being talked about is 'other people say' and then lobbing prepackaged outrage over ones shoulder. If you cannot separate arguments regarding cultural history from commenters saying 'don't be a wigger' you do not have the tools for the conversation. I'm sorry, but if you're ability to parse arguments stops there, you simply cannot have a productive conversation about the very nuanced difficulties in cultural assimilation and the narratives under which their done. As similarly if your only notion of racism is either white hoods and burning crosses or nothing, you do not yet have the tools to discuss the systemic and normalized issues of race in modern America.

[The Rich Port]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but;

Miley Cyrus says she is "messed up".

The We Can't Stop hitmaker - who recently shocked fans with her racy performance at the MTV Video Music Awards last weekend - admitted she has "issues" and struggles taking much-needed breaks from work.

Speaking to the Sunday People newspaper, she said: "I'm messed up ... I have so many f***ing issues.

"I am so f***ed up - everyone does dumb stuff when they are messed up.

http://tvnz.co.nz/entertainment-news/mi ... up-5551746

Kind of reinforces the whole off-the-rails theory.

Oh, how about that.

And here I thought that having Robin Thicke dry-hump you was emotionally and intellectually healthy.

[Lordieth]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but;



http://tvnz.co.nz/entertainment-news/mi ... up-5551746

Kind of reinforces the whole off-the-rails theory.

Oh, how about that.

And here I thought that having Robin Thicke dry-hump you was emotionally and intellectually healthy.

Only if you're his wife. Speaking of, I bet she loved watching this video.

[Cannot think of a name]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but;

Miley Cyrus says she is "messed up".

The We Can't Stop hitmaker - who recently shocked fans with her racy performance at the MTV Video Music Awards last weekend - admitted she has "issues" and struggles taking much-needed breaks from work.

Speaking to the Sunday People newspaper, she said: "I'm messed up ... I have so many f***ing issues.

"I am so f***ed up - everyone does dumb stuff when they are messed up.

http://tvnz.co.nz/entertainment-news/mi ... up-5551746

Kind of reinforces the whole off-the-rails theory.

I think that this might have confirmed that she's 20 and in the middle of a career that has odd demands and public scrutiny. Finding identity as a twenty-year-old is hard enough with family, friends, bosses, teachers, recruiters, and media telling you who you should be, if you now add producers, executives, industry writers, and the internet tellling you who you should be while you balance a career you're not 100% sure how you have in the first place, that might cause issues that a 20 year old may not actually be able to sort out with ease.

[George Kaplan]

Oh, how about that.

And here I thought that having Robin Thicke dry-hump you was emotionally and intellectually healthy.

Only if you're his wife. Speaking of, I bet she loved watching this video.

She might have. Maybe she gets her kicks this way?

Or maybe she had a Will Smith (and family) kind of look on her face. Though I seriously doubt it.

[New England and The Maritimes]

Only if you're his wife. Speaking of, I bet she loved watching this video.

She might have. Maybe she gets her kicks this way?

Or maybe she had a Will Smith (and family) kind of look on her face. Though I seriously doubt it.

Who cares if the man glorifies date rape, as long as the millions roll in!

[The Rich Port]

She might have. Maybe she gets her kicks this way?

Or maybe she had a Will Smith (and family) kind of look on her face. Though I seriously doubt it.

Who cares if the man glorifies date rape, as long as the millions roll in!

Eeyup.

It's fiiiiiiiine.

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but;



http://tvnz.co.nz/entertainment-news/mi ... up-5551746

Kind of reinforces the whole off-the-rails theory.

I think that this might have confirmed that she's 20 and in the middle of a career that has odd demands and public scrutiny. Finding identity as a twenty-year-old is hard enough with family, friends, bosses, teachers, recruiters, and media telling you who you should be, if you now add producers, executives, industry writers, and the internet tellling you who you should be while you balance a career you're not 100% sure how you have in the first place, that might cause issues that a 20 year old may not actually be able to sort out with ease.

... Why are you factoring in the Internet?

[George Kaplan]

She might have. Maybe she gets her kicks this way?

Or maybe she had a Will Smith (and family) kind of look on her face. Though I seriously doubt it.

Who cares if the man glorifies date rape, as long as the millions roll in!

Whoah, I don't praise his rapey song. I mean the tune is catchy. I was talking about the man's wife. And chances are she's probably use to what she saw.

[Tahar Joblis]

I think we can safely come to the conclusion that liking what a bunch of blacks you're working with do, and deciding to adopt some of their ideas is fundamentally racist because according to decidedly anti-racist middle class whities, the things a bunch of blacks you're working with do are fundamentally bad and should be restricted to 'Their Kind'.

So, following this logic through, if we find a black woman, for example, who isn't okay with it, are we allowed to actually have the conversation?

We're allowed to have the conversation, period.

The fact that the people she's "appropriating" from - the mostly-black musicians and performers, which nearly none of the complaining parties are - are in fact her mentors and co-workers makes "cultural appropriation" a thin charge. The idea that she's objectifying black women has ... about as much merit as the idea that other rappers are objectifying black women.

And when I say that Miley being white being necessary and sufficient to level the racial charges leveled against her? That article is a fine example of that. What is there about Miley Cyrus in that article? That she's a pretty/skinny white girl. (There's not a visible distinction between skinny and attractive in the article, so I'm just going to refer to size from here on out.)

She says Miley is really looking to impress white men, because she's a skinny white girl. She says that Miley is playing faux bisexuality in pursuit of that goal and using black women in pursuit of that goal, which she must have, because she is a skinny white girl. Everything resembling an argument hinges on Miley being a white girl. So it is necessary to her argument that Miley is a white girl.

But there's nothing else about Miley even mentioned in the article. There are two throwaway lines where she mentions a thing about what Miley did, but you could delete it with no effect on her argument, as she's not really talking about whether or not Miley twerking is "cultural appropriation." Her main argument is that because Miley appeared on stage with black women who aren't petite like her, Miley's performance is racist and horrible. Her argument applies to any skinny white woman appearing on stage with thicker black women. So Miley being a skinny white girl is sufficient for her argument.

Miley's body is necessary and sufficient evidence as far as that anti-Miley argument is concerned. It's not actually an argument relying on considering the "full context" of her act; Miley herself is completely replaceable. As far as the article you've linked to is concerned, Miley's "true" sin is being a white girl sharing a stage with black women.

[Nazis in Space]

You can - and evidently do - have it without one, too. It doesn't change a thing about the basic thought process being woefully close to 'The shit rappers do in their performances is bad and proper white/ oreo people shouldn't do it'. Basically, the vibes I get from some - certainly, not all, but it is noticeable - comments, re: Ms. Cyrus performance is 'She shouldn't behave like a wigger'. The implication being that a white female associating with this kind of cultural expression is bad, as it's an expression of quasi-animalistic oversexualisation that, apparently, should be restricted to the people it 'Belongs to' (See comments, re: 'Twerking belongs to blacks' in this thread).

I'm sure you can spot the problem with this attitude.

If 'Oversexualisation = Bad', we've a restriction on the freedom of expression for women.

If 'Oversexualisation = Bad, but it belongs to blacks', then we have the implication of blacks being oversexualised animals who cannot change because it's inherent to their DNA or something.

Now, the woman whose critique you linked actually does have (Sort of) a point - I don't agree with her with regards to racist attitudes for earlier-mentioned reasons, re: Miley Cyrus' social environment and history (I also seem to recall her engaging in comparable shenanigans involving a white stripper before), but I'll happily agree with her that the simultaneous sexualisation and marginalisation of (Non-Starring) women in the music video industry is a thing. But... This is universal, and not even remotely tied to race. Is it a good thing? No (Whether it's particularly bad is a different question, but I digress). But it's really, really, really not something one can feasibly build a race-issue from.

This is what I've been suspecting all along, that really being talked about is 'other people say' and then lobbing prepackaged outrage over ones shoulder. If you cannot separate arguments regarding cultural history from commenters saying 'don't be a wigger' you do not have the tools for the conversation. I'm sorry, but if you're ability to parse arguments stops there, you simply cannot have a productive conversation about the very nuanced difficulties in cultural assimilation and the narratives under which their done. As similarly if your only notion of racism is either white hoods and burning crosses or nothing, you do not yet have the tools to discuss the systemic and normalized issues of race in modern America.

I'm not entire certain that foregoing any actual discussion of the points raised in favour of a particularly verbose version of 'U R DUMB' - apparently solely on account of not agreeing with you, seeing as you opt not to elaborate on the reasoning - is adequately supporting your point of view, to be honest.