Miley Cyrus VMA performance and modern views on sex and race

[Hurdegaryp]

... Jesus Fucking Christ, the fucking teddy bear shit is FREAKING ME OUT, GODFUCKINGDAMMIT

It's supposed to do that, because it stands for a childhood that has ended.

[Cannot think of a name]

How exactly is having a woman with a big butt onstage racist? Because she happened to be black, so it would have been magically ok if she were white or latina or asian? It's only racist when somebody makes it about race outright.

...On this site, "there is a black woman there whose entire function in the performance is to be a large ass for Ms. Cyrus to smack" cannot possibly count as racially insensitive unless Cyrus follows it up by saying, "ALSO I AM TOTALLY RACIST, Y'ALL. FUCK BLACK PEOPLE, TEE HEE."

Page 6 of this thread.

All you have to do is strip away all the surrounding criticism, explanation, and historical context...then just point out a single element of the complaint narrowly and act like no one ever has attempted to explain any of it ever with outrage and hyperbole.

[Northern Dominus]

Page 6 of this thread.

All you have to do is strip away all the surrounding criticism, explanation, and historical context...then just point out a single element of the complaint narrowly and act like no one ever has attempted to explain any of it ever with outrage and hyperbole.

But again, why would it magically be better if it were a white or asian or latia or purple or lizard woman?

[Cannot think of a name]

All you have to do is strip away all the surrounding criticism, explanation, and historical context...then just point out a single element of the complaint narrowly and act like no one ever has attempted to explain any of it ever with outrage and hyperbole.

But again, why would it magically be better if it were a white or asian or latia or purple or lizard woman?

Read the fucking thread, dude. The context has been laid out, explained, re-explained, linked to articles that explain it. You can't just throw your papers in the air and say everything's invalid because you haven't caught up with the rest of the class.

[Northern Dominus]

But again, why would it magically be better if it were a white or asian or latia or purple or lizard woman?

Read the fucking thread, dude. The context has been laid out, explained, re-explained, linked to articles that explain it. You can't just throw your papers in the air and say everything's invalid because you haven't caught up with the rest of the class.

Again I have, and I fail to see why race should enter into it other than as a mere talking point because somebody just didn't like her performance. Which again leads me to wonder if said dancer was miraculously white or asian or latina or lizard if the outrage would go away, and suddenly why it would be ok when it wasn't when she was black. I mean if you're going to be mad about anything in that particular instance why should color factor into it, why not direct the outrage at fetishizing one particular part of women?

I realize that the meta-argument could be made that she's "appropriating" black culture as being overtly sexual... but if that's the case then shouldn't the ire be directed at the black people that made twerking a thing long before Miley ever got there? Or what about the umpteen rap videos that have done the same thing? At the very least Miley was willing to engage in the same sort of dancing that her supposed "obligatory ass" did, could we say the same thing for Lil John or Nelly? (yes I'm old, shutup )

[Cannot think of a name]

Read the fucking thread, dude. The context has been laid out, explained, re-explained, linked to articles that explain it. You can't just throw your papers in the air and say everything's invalid because you haven't caught up with the rest of the class.

Again I have,

No you haven't. You just haven't. Because if you had you wouldn't be asking this question. Because if I accept as true that you read the statement then the only other conclusion available to me is that you've so narrowly glanced over it that you're left with the intellectually dishonest position of pretending that this one dancer in isolation is the entirety of the argument and if we answer some asinine question about it the whole thing will fall apart. I've been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, that you got caught up in what you thought was going on and raging against that, but you've had a chance to catch up and you've stalwartly have refused to do so.

and I fail to see why race should enter into it other than as a mere talking point because somebody just didn't like her performance.

Because you have not read the thread. No statement could have made that clearer.

Which again leads me to wonder if said dancer was miraculously white or asian or latina or lizard if the outrage would go away, and suddenly why it would be ok when it wasn't when she was black.

Because it wouldn't be a white or Asian or lizard woman. (it might be a latina woman for the same reason it would be a black woman).

I mean if you're going to be mad about anything in that particular instance why should color factor into it, why not direct the outrage at fetishizing one particular part of women?

If you'd read the thread, you'd know the answer to this.

I realize that the meta-argument could be made that she's "appropriating" black culture as being overtly sexual... but if that's the case then shouldn't the ire be directed at the black people that made twerking a thing long before Miley ever got there?

What?

Or what about the umpteen rap videos that have done the same thing?

Are you under the impression that these videos are without critics both within and from without the community?

At the very least Miley was willing to engage in the same sort of dancing that her supposed "obligatory ass" did, could we say the same thing for Lil John or Nelly? (yes I'm old, shutup )

What?

[Northern Dominus]

Again I have,

No you haven't. You just haven't. Because if you had you wouldn't be asking this question. Because if I accept as true that you read the statement then the only other conclusion available to me is that you've so narrowly glanced over it that you're left with the intellectually dishonest position of pretending that this one dancer in isolation is the entirety of the argument and if we answer some asinine question about it the whole thing will fall apart. I've been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, that you got caught up in what you thought was going on and raging against that, but you've had a chance to catch up and you've stalwartly have refused to do so.

and I fail to see why race should enter into it other than as a mere talking point because somebody just didn't like her performance.

Because you have not read the thread. No statement could have made that clearer.

Which again leads me to wonder if said dancer was miraculously white or asian or latina or lizard if the outrage would go away, and suddenly why it would be ok when it wasn't when she was black.

Because it wouldn't be a white or Asian or lizard woman. (it might be a latina woman for the same reason it would be a black woman).

I mean if you're going to be mad about anything in that particular instance why should color factor into it, why not direct the outrage at fetishizing one particular part of women?

If you'd read the thread, you'd know the answer to this.

I realize that the meta-argument could be made that she's "appropriating" black culture as being overtly sexual... but if that's the case then shouldn't the ire be directed at the black people that made twerking a thing long before Miley ever got there?

What?

Or what about the umpteen rap videos that have done the same thing?

Are you under the impression that these videos are without critics both within and from without the community?

At the very least Miley was willing to engage in the same sort of dancing that her supposed "obligatory ass" did, could we say the same thing for Lil John or Nelly? (yes I'm old, shutup )

What?

I'm fully caught up despite your allegations otherwise. And yes I recognize that I might have misconstrued some arguments as lambasting or knee-jerk like Joe Scarborough's pet woman on Morning Joe who was at the tip of the knee-jerk outrage train, but beyond that I fail to see the big damn deal regarding Miley Cyrus and her meh performance at the VMA's. Could somebody think of the one dancer as "insensitive" in some fashion? Yes. Could somebody take umbrage with her grinding or "twerking" or whatever against Robin Thicke? Yes. But do do so would be to pick the whole thing apart and put one's own spin and interperetation on that part. Oh sure you can make a case one way or the other, but as I cited earlier... why now? Because she's a skinny white young woman so suddenly it's all a big to do and not okay? Where was this outrage on public display before?

[Cannot think of a name]

No you haven't. You just haven't. Because if you had you wouldn't be asking this question. Because if I accept as true that you read the statement then the only other conclusion available to me is that you've so narrowly glanced over it that you're left with the intellectually dishonest position of pretending that this one dancer in isolation is the entirety of the argument and if we answer some asinine question about it the whole thing will fall apart. I've been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, that you got caught up in what you thought was going on and raging against that, but you've had a chance to catch up and you've stalwartly have refused to do so.

Because you have not read the thread. No statement could have made that clearer.

Because it wouldn't be a white or Asian or lizard woman. (it might be a latina woman for the same reason it would be a black woman).

If you'd read the thread, you'd know the answer to this.

What?

Are you under the impression that these videos are without critics both within and from without the community?

What?

I'm fully caught up despite your allegations otherwise.

Then the only conclusion left is that you are being deliberately obtuse.

Oh sure you can make a case one way or the other, but as I cited earlier... why now? Because she's a skinny white young woman so suddenly it's all a big to do and not okay? Where was this outrage on public display before?

You may have just joined the conversation, but that doesn't mean that it hasn't been going on for a long time.

[Northern Dominus]

I'm fully caught up despite your allegations otherwise.

Then the only conclusion left is that you are being deliberately obtuse.

Oh sure you can make a case one way or the other, but as I cited earlier... why now? Because she's a skinny white young woman so suddenly it's all a big to do and not okay? Where was this outrage on public display before?

You may have just joined the conversation, but that doesn't mean that it hasn't been going on for a long time.

I'm being obtuse? Fine I'll lay it out point by point then.

A. Miley Cyrus did nothing more shocking than any other "shocking" performance at VMA's past, and in fact hers was pretty tame by comparison. It was perhaps the worst of the night and by no means "good" in comparison to other notable performances, but it certainly wasn't the "shockingest of shocking VMA moments" despite knee-jerk allegations.
B. Her dancing was no more suggestive than what goes on at any junior high or upward school dance. And her outfit was no more suggestive or raunchy than something you might find at a municipal pool.
3. This whole "insensitivity" argument when it applies to one specific dancer is disingenuous because somehow her skin color is the issue and not the fetishization of her ass. The fact that it would suddenly be okay (to certain NSG-ers) if the dancer in question were of another skin tone entirely seems to support that allegation.
Delta: The fact that it's Miley Cyrus taking the blame for long-standing "issues" in some sort of public frenzy over her "insensitivity" and "sluttiness" makes me wonder if most of if not all the rancor isn't just longstanding animosity towards her or her Disney character and the tween frenzy she generated for awhile, and this show just provides an convenient platform to level all sorts of denigration and absive allegations in her direction.

Clear enough? Or must I break down each point into sub-points as well?

[Cannot think of a name]

Then the only conclusion left is that you are being deliberately obtuse.

You may have just joined the conversation, but that doesn't mean that it hasn't been going on for a long time.

I'm being obtuse? Fine I'll lay it out point by point then.

A. Miley Cyrus did nothing more shocking than any other "shocking" performance at VMA's past, and in fact hers was pretty tame by comparison. It was perhaps the worst of the night and by no means "good" in comparison to other notable performances, but it certainly wasn't the "shockingest of shocking VMA moments" despite knee-jerk allegations.

An argument you continue to have with yourself.

B. Her dancing was no more suggestive than what goes on at any junior high or upward school dance. And her outfit was no more suggestive or raunchy than something you might find at a municipal pool.

A point that is not currently in contention.

3. This whole "insensitivity" argument when it applies to one specific dancer is disingenuous because somehow her skin color is the issue and not the fetishization of her ass. The fact that it would suddenly be okay (to certain NSG-ers) if the dancer in question were of another skin tone entirely seems to support that allegation.

By focusing on this singular element and pretending that it in isolation makes up the whole of the argument regarding sensitivity or appropriation you are being deliberately obtuse. You wanted to know, there it is. The fact that 'the other race' ploy has been asked and answered and to my knowledge no one has accepted your premise of 'if it had been x it would be okay' furthers this conclusion.

Delta: The fact that it's Miley Cyrus taking the blame for long-standing "issues" in some sort of public frenzy over her "insensitivity" and "sluttiness" makes me wonder if most of if not all the rancor isn't just longstanding animosity towards her or her Disney character and the tween frenzy she generated for awhile, and this show just provides an convenient platform to level all sorts of denigration and absive allegations in her direction.

You are projecting an importance onto Ms. Cyrus that is entirely on you. She is not the epicenter, just the latest example and illustration of a long conversation.

Clear enough? Or must I break down each point into sub-points as well?

If only you took such care in understanding the arguments being made and not the ones you have assumed have been made.

[Northern Dominus]

3. This whole "insensitivity" argument when it applies to one specific dancer is disingenuous because somehow her skin color is the issue and not the fetishization of her ass. The fact that it would suddenly be okay (to certain NSG-ers) if the dancer in question were of another skin tone entirely seems to support that allegation.

By focusing on this singular element and pretending that it in isolation makes up the whole of the argument regarding sensitivity or appropriation you are being deliberately obtuse. You wanted to know, there it is. The fact that 'the other race' ploy has been asked and answered and to my knowledge no one has accepted your premise of 'if it had been x it would be okay' furthers this conclusion.

Since apparently this is the point of umbrage, let's focus on that shall we?

Again, despite your allegations I read page six and a little further, and that's the conclusion I came to after reading said sections, that the problem was the fact that it was Miley Cyrus fetishizing a woman's butt, and that woman happened to be black. It wasn't outright stated but the general gist was that if said woman was another race it wouldn't have been objectionable. However since I'm apparently missing "the point", care to illustrate it for me?

And I guess that singular focus is my argument, that in order to find something objectionable in her entire performance people have to pick out a specific part and see how it clashes with whatever rose-tinted magnifying glass somebody chooses to use.

[Cannot think of a name]

By focusing on this singular element and pretending that it in isolation makes up the whole of the argument regarding sensitivity or appropriation you are being deliberately obtuse. You wanted to know, there it is. The fact that 'the other race' ploy has been asked and answered and to my knowledge no one has accepted your premise of 'if it had been x it would be okay' furthers this conclusion.

Since apparently this is the point of umbrage, let's focus on that shall we?

Again, despite your allegations I read page six and a little further, and that's the conclusion I came to after reading said sections, that the problem was the fact that it was Miley Cyrus fetishizing a woman's butt, and that woman happened to be black. It wasn't outright stated but the general gist was that if said woman was another race it wouldn't have been objectionable. However since I'm apparently missing "the point", care to illustrate it for me?

You're going to have to find and quote (and probably then ask the person you're quoting) the post that gives this 'gist' you're talking about. Because that 'gist' as far as I can see is exactly as I have been calling it, being deliberately obtuse. Especially when the question has been asked and answered and your premise rejected.

And I guess that singular focus is my argument, that in order to find something objectionable in her entire performance people have to pick out a specific part and see how it clashes with whatever rose-tinted magnifying glass somebody chooses to use.

I feel like you're projecting here.

[The Parkus Empire]

All you have to do is strip away all the surrounding criticism, explanation, and historical context...then just point out a single element of the complaint narrowly and act like no one ever has attempted to explain any of it ever with outrage and hyperbole.

But again, why would it magically be better if it were a white or asian or latia or purple or lizard woman?

HOW IS A CHAIN AROUND A BLACK PERSON'S NECK ANY MORE OFFENSIVE THAN A CHAIN AROUND ANYONE ELSE'S NECK YOU GUYS ARE WAY TOO CRAZY YOU'RE IMAGINING RACISM

[Greed and Death]

How exactly is having a woman with a big butt onstage racist? Because she happened to be black, so it would have been magically ok if she were white or latina or asian? It's only racist when somebody makes it about race outright.

...On this site, "there is a black woman there whose entire function in the performance is to be a large ass for Ms. Cyrus to smack" cannot possibly count as racially insensitive unless Cyrus follows it up by saying, "ALSO I AM TOTALLY RACIST, Y'ALL. FUCK BLACK PEOPLE, TEE HEE."

Page 6 of this thread.

That was about where I changed my mind.

[Sedikal]

Miley pretty much embarrassed herself in stage with the ridiculesness of her performance. And robin thicke didn't look to happy when she chose to join in on his performance ether. All and all it was just stupid and embarrassing. My guess since it was the 10 year anniversary of the Brittany/Madonna thing she was like "Fuck those bitches ill one up them!"

[Paixao]

I'm very much against slut shaming... but Miley's performance was just crass and tasteless... I mean... was the sexual iconography really necessary? Did it really add anything to that performance? Honestly?

It would have been just as bad and tasteless from a man as it was from her.

All this especially so when the show was supposed to be 'all ages' I mean... darn it woman have some class! (No, that does not mean "put some more clothes on because I think you're being overly sexual and it's challenging latent patriarchal motives I have... or whatever somebody wants to try and catch me out on. It means anybody, male OR female, should be able to distinguish when it is (or in this case, most definitely isn't) appropriate to give such strong sexual imagery in front of an all ages audience).

[Ifreann]

I'm very much against slut shaming... but Miley's performance was just crass and tasteless... I mean... was the sexual iconography really necessary? Did it really add anything to that performance? Honestly?

Most likely, yes. They don't say "sex sells" because it's alliterative.

[Gauthier]

What should get people really concerned is...

... how is Miley Cyrus going to top this?

[Rocopurr]

What should get people really concerned is...

... how is Miley Cyrus going to top this?

Full blown nude dancing with even more grotesque teddy bears.

[Northern Dominus]

Since apparently this is the point of umbrage, let's focus on that shall we?

Again, despite your allegations I read page six and a little further, and that's the conclusion I came to after reading said sections, that the problem was the fact that it was Miley Cyrus fetishizing a woman's butt, and that woman happened to be black. It wasn't outright stated but the general gist was that if said woman was another race it wouldn't have been objectionable. However since I'm apparently missing "the point", care to illustrate it for me?

You're going to have to find and quote (and probably then ask the person you're quoting) the post that gives this 'gist' you're talking about. Because that 'gist' as far as I can see is exactly as I have been calling it, being deliberately obtuse. Especially when the question has been asked and answered and your premise rejected.

And I guess that singular focus is my argument, that in order to find something objectionable in her entire performance people have to pick out a specific part and see how it clashes with whatever rose-tinted magnifying glass somebody chooses to use.

I feel like you're projecting here.

Let's see, there's this:

This.

I can understand the racism angle...from the description it does sound like a 21st century minstrel show, but the sexualization angle is just ridiculous.

The sexualization is just a symptom of the racism, in the sense that her show equates blackness with hypersexuality.

And this, specifically the highlighted section:

So, after hearing all the fuss about this over the last couple of days, I finally got around watching the performance in question, and I must admit that my reaction was pretty much, "…that's it?"

Cyrus's appropriation of so-called "ratchet" culture and her use of black women's bodies as sexualized props deserves criticism. That, however, seems to be receiving far less attention than people pearl-clutching about "breaking news: young woman in profession where overt, over-the-top sexiness is constantly demanded of young women acts sexy in overt, over-the-top manner!" Young female pop stars in our culture are placed in a ridiculous double-bind where their entire careers are predicated upon performing sexiness for us, but when they do, we shriek about how they're dirty sluts.

It seems to be that the color of the dancer's skin is more of an issue than the fetishizing of a particular part of her anatomy, which to me smacks of a bit of a disconnect here. Again, I'm being fairly direct despite your allegations; would changing the skin tone of the dancer in question have resulted in Miley Cyrus' performance being any less "insensitive"? And if so then you have to wonder who really has the problem, Miley or the people looking to stick her with that label?

But again, why would it magically be better if it were a white or asian or latia or purple or lizard woman?

HOW IS A CHAIN AROUND A BLACK PERSON'S NECK ANY MORE OFFENSIVE THAN A CHAIN AROUND ANYONE ELSE'S NECK YOU GUYS ARE WAY TOO CRAZY YOU'RE IMAGINING RACISM

Yeah... not exactly comparable. Got anything better than an association fallacy?

[Nazis in Space]

Wikipedia gets me a total of six black musicians with whom Miley Cyrus has cooperated.

For some reason, this makes me think less 'She's a filthy racist who disparages black culture', and more 'She likes the things she's come into contact with and decided to adopt them'.

All of this is, of course, assuming that 1. that entire shenanigans can be counted as 'Black Culture' in the first place (Highly questionable, given how the relevant genres have spread considerably beyond mere black musicians), and speaking of which, trying to simultaneously claim a certain kind of performance to be 'Black' and 'Bad' strikes me as all so slightly problematic.

Hm. Actually, since we have these cooperating musicians (And the background dancers), maybe we could ask them instead of outraged middle class whities about what they think about the performance?

[Greed and Death]

Wikipedia gets me a total of six black musicians with whom Miley Cyrus has cooperated.

For some reason, this makes me think less 'She's a filthy racist who disparages black culture', and more 'She likes the things she's come into contact with and decided to adopt them'.

All of this is, of course, assuming that 1. that entire shenanigans can be counted as 'Black Culture' in the first place (Highly questionable, given how the relevant genres have spread considerably beyond mere black musicians), and speaking of which, trying to simultaneously claim a certain kind of performance to be 'Black' and 'Bad' strikes me as all so slightly problematic.

Hm. Actually, since we have these cooperating musicians (And the background dancers), maybe we could ask them instead of outraged middle class whities about what they think about the performance?

I don't think most of us think she did it intentionally to thumb her nose at black people and black culture. We are at this point assuming she did this through ignorance. Which makes pointing it out more important, someone who is knowingly racist can not simply be educated.

[New Frenco Empire]

This video is a pretty good summary on it, imo.

[Cannot think of a name]

You're going to have to find and quote (and probably then ask the person you're quoting) the post that gives this 'gist' you're talking about. Because that 'gist' as far as I can see is exactly as I have been calling it, being deliberately obtuse. Especially when the question has been asked and answered and your premise rejected.

I feel like you're projecting here.

Let's see, there's this:

The sexualization is just a symptom of the racism, in the sense that her show equates blackness with hypersexuality.

And this, specifically the highlighted section:

So, after hearing all the fuss about this over the last couple of days, I finally got around watching the performance in question, and I must admit that my reaction was pretty much, "…that's it?"

Cyrus's appropriation of so-called "ratchet" culture and her use of black women's bodies as sexualized props deserves criticism. That, however, seems to be receiving far less attention than people pearl-clutching about "breaking news: young woman in profession where overt, over-the-top sexiness is constantly demanded of young women acts sexy in overt, over-the-top manner!" Young female pop stars in our culture are placed in a ridiculous double-bind where their entire careers are predicated upon performing sexiness for us, but when they do, we shriek about how they're dirty sluts.

It seems to be that the color of the dancer's skin is more of an issue than the fetishizing of a particular part of her anatomy, which to me smacks of a bit of a disconnect here.

Because you're going to ignore everything else, including what the implication of what they're saying in order to do so? To essentially say, "You people noticing the racism, you're the racists for noticing?"

Is that really the tune you want to play?

Again, I'm being fairly direct despite your allegations;

I seriously don't think you understand my allegations any more than you seem to understand what everyone else is saying.

would changing the skin tone of the dancer in question have resulted in Miley Cyrus' performance being any less "insensitive"?

Why in the fuck do you keep asking this question when it's been answered? I don't understand this. I really don't. I also don't really know any other way of telling you that asking this question continues to miss the point. It would never be dancers of another race in this scenario, that's kind of the point. It's like asking if a depiction of an Asian woman as a Geisha or Dragon Lady would be okay if you used a white women, it's a non-sequitor.

And if so then you have to wonder who really has the problem, Miley or the people looking to stick her with that label?

It's with the people who refuse to take context into account.

HOW IS A CHAIN AROUND A BLACK PERSON'S NECK ANY MORE OFFENSIVE THAN A CHAIN AROUND ANYONE ELSE'S NECK YOU GUYS ARE WAY TOO CRAZY YOU'RE IMAGINING RACISM

Yeah... not exactly comparable. Got anything better than an association fallacy?

Except it really kind of is. That's been the point the entire time, that in as much as there is a history of associating blackness with chattle there is a history of exoticising parts of the culture and appropriating it as an expression of sexuality. So when Ms Cyrus uses cues from a black sub-culture in this manner it's not a case of "Oh my god Miley hates black people!", that's not what's being said. What instead is being said is that Ms. Cyrus' performance was part of a long tradition of how sub-culture and 'otherness' has been utilized by the predominant culture.

But this has been explained over and over again. So I'm guessing I can look forward to being asked once again about changing the race of the dancers as if that was the point, that simply her back up dancers were black. Good grief.

[Tahar Joblis]

Well, it's true that some people are picking multiple reasons to hate Miley. But it certainly seems like there's a lot of Miley-hate running around, and this really is a tempest in a teacup on a molehill being made into a mountain.

What I was getting at is that some of the reasons you've listed for people hating Miley Cyrus are more like defences of her("I blame Billy Ray!", "oh my goodness she should fire her staff!"), or nothing to do with her at all("I hate Robin Thicke"). I'm also at a bit off a loss as to what "pedophilic!!!!1!ONE!" is in reference, but that's me.

Ah. Fair enough, point taken. Some of the hate is directed at her VMA act and all the peripheral things rather than necessarily her.

Still an awful lot of hate, and much ado about very little.