Miley Cyrus VMA performance and modern views on sex and race

[Minoriteeburg]

You know, I think you guys might have a point... races can share can't they?

Yes, absolutely. But there's a difference between sharing and cultural appropriation, and while sometimes it can be tricky to figure out where exactly the line is crossed, it's important to try to stay on the right side of it.

She isn't the first one to do this though, so why is she the scapegoat for the hatred?

This has been going on forever, why now is it a big deal when some ignorant redneck decides to join the fun?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Isn't that the point of ending racism?

This should be a thread of it's own.

I would think so. One race, right? The human race.

Yup, they can.

It's just learning from history, imo....

In part.

I don't deny that some people were offended by what they perceived she was doing. A portrayal of black women as sexual objects. I can't deny that can be a point of contention. But the slut shaming and the prudishness? Nah, I find that idiotic.

Tweaking, I see no reason why a white person or a Latino can't do it. It's a dance, after all. Also, Cyrus is a performer and sorry if this is taken badly, but shock value sells. And it's not like this is the first time something like this happens at the VMAs.

[Llamalandia]

Yes and no.

I think it's okay for people to point out problematic shit in our pop culture. I haven't watched the performance in question, but frankly I would not be remotely surprised if it WAS racist to one degree or another, because our popular culture in general is racist. And sexist. And a lot of other crappy stuff. I think it's not necessarily a good thing if we all become so cynical that we don't even care when ugly shit happens around us.

What annoys me is the hand-wringing as if this is somehow NEW or DIFFERENT from all the gazillions of other problematic elements floating around our pop culture. As other people are so astutely pointing out, racist and sexist and violent bullshit has been a part of music acts since approximately forever, so let's not pretend that These Kids Today are doing anything their parents weren't doing twice as often.

The second paragraph is what I'm talking about. The slut-shaming, prudishness, misogyny, etc. that people usually spew when they react to this sort of thing.

I think what makes this different though is that she also lacks talent and even the most open person is unlikely to find much artistic merit in what she did. So it's more slut shaming to save time by not having to provide a more reasoned adn detailed critique of her performance. That said it was terrible, I imagine her choreographer will remain undergoround for the next few years because WOW those moves were just stupid and inartful.

[Minoriteeburg]

I would think so. One race, right? The human race.


It's just learning from history, imo....

In part.

I don't deny that some people were offended by what they perceived she was doing. A portrayal of black women as sexual objects. I can't deny that can be a point of contention. But the slut shaming and the prudishness? Nah, I find that idiotic.

Tweaking, I see no reason why a white person or a Latino can't do it. It's a dance, after all. Also, Cyrus is a performer and sorry if this is taken badly, but shock value sells. And it's not like this is the first time something like this happens at the VMAs.

This is what I don't get though. So black and white people can portray themselves as sex objects as long as they don't do it with people of the other race on stage?

Women (and men) portraying other women (black/white/latino/asian/whatever) as sex objects in music has been going on for decades now. Why is it all the sudden such an outrage now?

[The Truth and Light]

I would think so. One race, right? The human race.


It's just learning from history, imo....

In part.

I don't deny that some people were offended by what they perceived she was doing. A portrayal of black women as sexual objects. I can't deny that can be a point of contention. But the slut shaming and the prudishness? Nah, I find that idiotic.

Tweaking, I see no reason why a white person or a Latino can't do it. It's a dance, after all. Also, Cyrus is a performer and sorry if this is taken badly, but shock value sells. And it's not like this is the first time something like this happens at the VMAs.

Like I said before, I love Miley, I think she's gorgeous, and I think she slayed on that stage. It is important, however, to take people's contentions - especially ones of a racial basis - seriously. Just my thoughts.

[Llamalandia]

I would think so. One race, right? The human race.


It's just learning from history, imo....

In part.

I don't deny that some people were offended by what they perceived she was doing. A portrayal of black women as sexual objects. I can't deny that can be a point of contention. But the slut shaming and the prudishness? Nah, I find that idiotic.

Tweaking, I see no reason why a white person or a Latino can't do it. It's a dance, after all. Also, Cyrus is a performer and sorry if this is taken badly, but shock value sells. And it's not like this is the first time something like this happens at the VMAs.

i'll concede that it might might be on the edge of being legit dance, but that said again Hanah Montana there sucks at it very much. Maybe if she were a better performer there would be less slut shaming. That said some of the issue is also tied up in the fact that miley is and was hannah montana to many tween/teen girls and I don't think it's unreasonable the way some parents may have help fueled the reactions. I mean it's fine to call adults themselves prudeish but here there was a significant nexus with children so I think a certain sense of shock and revulsion is warranted on their part.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

In part.

I don't deny that some people were offended by what they perceived she was doing. A portrayal of black women as sexual objects. I can't deny that can be a point of contention. But the slut shaming and the prudishness? Nah, I find that idiotic.

Tweaking, I see no reason why a white person or a Latino can't do it. It's a dance, after all. Also, Cyrus is a performer and sorry if this is taken badly, but shock value sells. And it's not like this is the first time something like this happens at the VMAs.

This is what I don't get though. So black and white people can portray themselves as sex objects as long as they don't do it with people of the other race on stage?

Women (and men) portraying other women (black/white/latino/asian/whatever) as sex objects in music has been going on for decades now. Why is it all the sudden such an outrage now?

Frankly, today this is insignificant to me, personally. I don't get the huge outrage, but that's just me.

And before anyone jumps down my throat, I'm not saying these issues don't matter.

[The Truth and Light]

The second paragraph is what I'm talking about. The slut-shaming, prudishness, misogyny, etc. that people usually spew when they react to this sort of thing.

I think what makes this different though is that she also lacks talent and even the most open person is unlikely to find much artistic merit in what she did. So it's more slut shaming to save time by not having to provide a more reasoned adn detailed critique of her performance. That said it was terrible, I imagine her choreographer will remain undergoround for the next few years because WOW those moves were just stupid and inartful.

The thing about art and performance is that, unless you have the money, your opinion of the artistry doesn't matter. Funny thing is, Miley Cyrus is making bank and so are her producers. She sells, therefore, in the postmodern world, she makes good art.

[Nailed to the Perch]

Yes, absolutely. But there's a difference between sharing and cultural appropriation, and while sometimes it can be tricky to figure out where exactly the line is crossed, it's important to try to stay on the right side of it.

She isn't the first one to do this though, so why is she the scapegoat for the hatred?

This has been going on forever, why now is it a big deal when some ignorant redneck decides to join the fun?

Already answered this one, I think.

...the people who get frustrated with that, mostly black women, have been outraged about it all along. People are just paying slightly more attention to them than usual, because they're able to piggyback on the much larger contingent of people shrieking about how a girl had the temerity to grow into an attractive young woman and then behave precisely the way we demand that attractive young women behave.

I cannot work up the energy to give even one fuck about "young person does a sexy dance," but if I can follow it up with, "calling Cyrus a slut is crap, how about instead we talk about how having a faceless black woman stand on stage dressed up as an animal while white people point at her buttocks has some creepy racist overtones?" maybe at least SOME good comes of it.

[Minoriteeburg]

This is what I don't get though. So black and white people can portray themselves as sex objects as long as they don't do it with people of the other race on stage?

Women (and men) portraying other women (black/white/latino/asian/whatever) as sex objects in music has been going on for decades now. Why is it all the sudden such an outrage now?

Frankly, today this is insignificant to me, personally. I don't get the huge outrage, but that's just me.

And before anyone jumps down my throat, I'm not saying these issues don't matter.

But in this case, it does not matter.

[Seperates]

This is what I don't get though. So black and white people can portray themselves as sex objects as long as they don't do it with people of the other race on stage?

Women (and men) portraying other women (black/white/latino/asian/whatever) as sex objects in music has been going on for decades now. Why is it all the sudden such an outrage now?

Frankly, today this is insignificant to me, personally. I don't get the huge outrage, but that's just me.

And before anyone jumps down my throat, I'm not saying these issues don't matter.

If it weren't for pure publicity, it probably wouldn't.

[Seriong]

(1) it's not just about one dance move.
(2) no one is "assuming" anything. Ms. Cyrus has explicitly said she chose that song because she wanted something that "sounded black."

1) Then bring up other things
2) I love how just a few pages ago, that claim was addressed (In reply to you actually) and shown to be a statement taken out of context.

[Llamalandia]

In part.

I don't deny that some people were offended by what they perceived she was doing. A portrayal of black women as sexual objects. I can't deny that can be a point of contention. But the slut shaming and the prudishness? Nah, I find that idiotic.

Tweaking, I see no reason why a white person or a Latino can't do it. It's a dance, after all. Also, Cyrus is a performer and sorry if this is taken badly, but shock value sells. And it's not like this is the first time something like this happens at the VMAs.

Like I said before, I love Miley, I think she's gorgeous, and I think she slayed on that stage. It is important, however, to take people's contentions - especially ones of a racial basis - seriously. Just my thoughts.

People's opinions on racism here considered…considered…considedered Yeah gonna go ahead adn reject them. Look black face is racist, using the n-word is racist, dancing the way a black woman "would dance" is at worst barely distastful in terms of racial stereotyping. But besides imitation is the highest form of flattery problem is hannah montana her basically just sucks. She's irrevalent and might as well go for the requisite celeb drug addictions and rehabs now.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Frankly, today this is insignificant to me, personally. I don't get the huge outrage, but that's just me.

And before anyone jumps down my throat, I'm not saying these issues don't matter.

But in this case, it does not matter.

To some, it does matter. I can't begrudge them that. It's just that, in all honesty, the legitimacy of the concerns is getting overshadowed by the prude squad. The biggest issue is not the racism or the cultural appropriation. The biggest issue is Miley being 'a slut'. That's what people other than some in this thread keep focusing on. That's the saddest part of it all.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Frankly, today this is insignificant to me, personally. I don't get the huge outrage, but that's just me.

And before anyone jumps down my throat, I'm not saying these issues don't matter.

If it weren't for pure publicity, it probably wouldn't.

Indeed.

And meanwhile Miley's single is number one and she's banking on this. Fait accompli on her part.

[Minoriteeburg]

But in this case, it does not matter.

To some, it does matter. I can't begrudge them that. It's just that, in all honesty, the legitimacy of the concerns is getting overshadowed by the prude squad. The biggest issue is not the racism or the cultural appropriation. The biggest issue is Miley being 'a slut'. That's what people other than some in this thread keep focusing on. That's the saddest part of it all.

Now the slut shaming is a different story. To me that is even more ignorant than the racism bs.

[Vetalia]

Well, that was utterly talentless and quite irritating.

On the upside, I did enjoy the occasional cuts to various people sitting there completely stonefaced and neutral, like Inner Party members observing a two-minutes hate in Oceania.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

To some, it does matter. I can't begrudge them that. It's just that, in all honesty, the legitimacy of the concerns is getting overshadowed by the prude squad. The biggest issue is not the racism or the cultural appropriation. The biggest issue is Miley being 'a slut'. That's what people other than some in this thread keep focusing on. That's the saddest part of it all.

Now the slut shaming is a different story. To me that is even more ignorant than the racism bs.

To be fair, both issues (racism and slut shaming) are bad. The slut shaming even more so, IMO since it crosses lines, both regarding the portrayal of black women as sexual objects, maybe even sexual animals, and pertaining to Cyrus herself.

[Tumblr Isles]

the real criminal was the man she was grinding up against, he did nothing to stop it? that should be considered sexual assault.

[Llamalandia]

I think what makes this different though is that she also lacks talent and even the most open person is unlikely to find much artistic merit in what she did. So it's more slut shaming to save time by not having to provide a more reasoned adn detailed critique of her performance. That said it was terrible, I imagine her choreographer will remain undergoround for the next few years because WOW those moves were just stupid and inartful.

The thing about art and performance is that, unless you have the money, your opinion of the artistry doesn't matter. Funny thing is, Miley Cyrus is making bank and so are her producers. She sells, therefore, in the postmodern world, she makes good art.

The capitalist in me is shouting in agreement with you a hundred times, but even louder is that small part of my soul still left that says, I know art when i see it and that wasn't art. Sure she's made a ton of money but will anyone really remember her as a great artist is she the female Jackson, the female elvis heck no. Critical opinion does matter at least to me still (at least a little). That said how much of her suckcess is do to her literally being "whore out"/self-whoring as sex item vs a legitimate performer. I mean porn is a multibillion dollar industry and they have their own industry awards programs and stuff but that fact alone doesn't make porn stars artists anymore than whatever Miley was doing/trying to do makes her an artist.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

Yes, absolutely. But there's a difference between sharing and cultural appropriation, and while sometimes it can be tricky to figure out where exactly the line is crossed, it's important to try to stay on the right side of it.

She isn't the first one to do this though, so why is she the scapegoat for the hatred?

This has been going on forever, why now is it a big deal when some ignorant redneck decides to join the fun?

Yes, white women have been twerking for as long as twerking has had a name. Iggy Azalea twerks and no one bites her head off. Taylor Swift has twerked. As have Ashley Tisdale, Ariana Grande, Selena Gomez, and fucking Harry Styles. This is not a cultural thing, it's something that has been practiced by everyone, but attributed to blacks stereotypically because black women are "supposed" to have larger butts.

[Tahar Joblis]

Well then what are they arguing? I would like to know.

My posts in this thread are a decent place to start. Here's a couple of good links to add to it. I don't agree with everything in them, but I think they give a decent breakdown from the perspective of several women of color:
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/anne-theri ... _hp_ref=tw
http://groupthink.jezebel.com/solidarit ... 1203666732

Jezebel seriously calls itself out as "groupthink?" Seriously? Is this a form of deep trolling of their reader/contributor base by Gawker?

So. Tell me how this isn't simply an endorsement of trying to keep the color line in the music industry as bright and as visible as possible. Because frankly, what I'm seeing so far on race is more proof of racism by Miley Cyrus's enraged critics than Miley Cyrus having done anything harmful.

[Minoriteeburg]

Now the slut shaming is a different story. To me that is even more ignorant than the racism bs.

To be fair, both issues (racism and slut shaming) are bad. The slut shaming even more so, IMO since it crosses lines, both regarding the portrayal of black women as sexual objects, maybe even sexual animals, and pertaining to Cyrus herself.

I'll drink to that.

[Llamalandia]

the real criminal was the man she was grinding up against, he did nothing to stop it? that should be considered sexual assault.

No wait clear cut victim blaming on your part, the man here was the innocent victim enough with the victim blaming culture.

[Llamalandia]

Well, that was utterly talentless and quite irritating.

On the upside, I did enjoy the occasional cuts to various people sitting there completely stonefaced and neutral, like Inner Party members observing a two-minutes hate in Oceania.

Wait what about hate in Oceania now is this a real serious thing?