Miley Cyrus VMA performance and modern views on sex and race

[Forsakia]

Why? There is no reason that a former Disney Channel star cannot produce good music.

You're right.
But I haven't seen any evidence that any of them HAVE produced good music, so...

It's almost like music is quite a subjective thing.

[Grenartia]

I said it before on TET, and I'll say it again now.

Soul Plane was 10 times more racist than Miley Cyrus's onstage seizure.

Oh, it absolutely does. The trope of black-woman-as-jezebel is incredibly common in our culture in general and in music videos in particular. That said, the people who get frustrated with that, mostly black women, have been outraged about it all along. People are just paying slightly more attention to them than usual, because they're able to piggyback on the much larger contingent of people shrieking about how a girl had the temerity to grow into an attractive young woman and then behave precisely the way we demand that attractive young women behave.

How far are you going with your cultural appropriation line? In terms of the article you quoted talking about twerking as a cultural element that she's appropriating?

I'd say that the suggestion that somebody who goes on stage, and makes an idiot out of themself by doing X action that isn't associated with any race, is a racist, is a racist suggestion in and of itself, by trying to associate that action with a certain race.

Nothing Cyrus did up there was associated with any specific race. It was race-neutral.

[Tahar Joblis]

The trope of black-woman-as-jezebel is incredibly common in our culture in general and in music videos in particular.

I am inclined to demand evidence. I will suggest that when you control for genre, white women are portrayed as "jezebels" not any less often than black women, and suggest further, in fact, that white women are more likely to be stereotyped as man-stealing sluts by black women than vice versa.

Something about the short supply of eligible black men in the dating pool.

[Grenartia]

Yup. I think trying to explain the sociological implications of fetishizing black women's bodies (and specifically their bottoms) while connecting those bodies to out-of-control, animalistic sexuality may go a bit over the heads of NSG, though. On this site, "there is a black woman there whose entire function in the performance is to be a large ass for Ms. Cyrus to smack" cannot possibly count as racially insensitive unless Cyrus follows it up by saying, "ALSO I AM TOTALLY RACIST, Y'ALL. FUCK BLACK PEOPLE, TEE HEE."

C'mon people, sociological analysis isn't exactly the same as teaching yourself ancient Egyptian. Take even one class and you can understand this stuff just fine.

Except, none of it was associated with race, so it can't be racist. Was it stupid? Yes. Hell, I can even see the arguments for it being mysogynistic. But it wasn't racist.

[Gauthier]

C'mon people, sociological analysis isn't exactly the same as teaching yourself ancient Egyptian. Take even one class and you can understand this stuff just fine.

Except, none of it was associated with race, so it can't be racist. Was it stupid? Yes. Hell, I can even see the arguments for it being mysogynistic. But it wasn't racist.

Dressing skankily isn't quite the damning evidence like blackface.

[New England and The Maritimes]

C'mon people, sociological analysis isn't exactly the same as teaching yourself ancient Egyptian. Take even one class and you can understand this stuff just fine.

Except, none of it was associated with race, so it can't be racist. Was it stupid? Yes. Hell, I can even see the arguments for it being mysogynistic. But it wasn't racist.

It was associated with race, and Cyrus HERSELF said her sound was, paraphrasing "more black." Her backup dancers were predominantly black, and the one she drug out to use as a sex object on stage is included in that.

[Tahar Joblis]

Yup. I think trying to explain the sociological implications of fetishizing black women's bodies (and specifically their bottoms) while connecting those bodies to out-of-control, animalistic sexuality may go a bit over the heads of NSG, though. On this site, "there is a black woman there whose entire function in the performance is to be a large ass for Ms. Cyrus to smack" cannot possibly count as racially insensitive unless Cyrus follows it up by saying, "ALSO I AM TOTALLY RACIST, Y'ALL. FUCK BLACK PEOPLE, TEE HEE."

C'mon people, sociological analysis isn't exactly the same as teaching yourself ancient Egyptian. Take even one class and you can understand this stuff just fine.

Has it occurred to you that a subject which can be understood "just fine" after one class might just not be the source of the One Great Font of Truth^TM about society, and might instead contain a high volume of bullshit to empirically justifiable claims, leading to such things being widely disrespected?

[Aldheim]

How is appropriating something typically associated with a certain race, racist? Because that, for example, implies that early rock musicians were racist for incorporating elements of the black dominated jazz tradition into their music, which sounds pretty ridiculous.

[Tahar Joblis]

Except, none of it was associated with race, so it can't be racist. Was it stupid? Yes. Hell, I can even see the arguments for it being mysogynistic. But it wasn't racist.

It was associated with race, and Cyrus HERSELF said her sound was, paraphrasing "more black." Her backup dancers were predominantly black, and the one she drug out to use as a sex object on stage is included in that.

Let's provide the context for that out-of-context paraphrase.

We're a generation past "black rock" and "white rock." The fact that you seem to think maintaining a strict color line in music would be a good thing is to me rather reactionary.

[Quackquackhonk]

that was a really good point.

If only they applied it to rappers too.

you're right, no one has ever criticized any black rap artist for the blatant misogyny on display in their videos.

[Nailed to the Perch]

Oh, it absolutely does. The trope of black-woman-as-jezebel is incredibly common in our culture in general and in music videos in particular. That said, the people who get frustrated with that, mostly black women, have been outraged about it all along. People are just paying slightly more attention to them than usual, because they're able to piggyback on the much larger contingent of people shrieking about how a girl had the temerity to grow into an attractive young woman and then behave precisely the way we demand that attractive young women behave.

How far are you going with your cultural appropriation line? In terms of the article you quoted talking about twerking as a cultural element that she's appropriating?

If one dance move were the extent of her racial appropriation, I don't think anyone would be particularly put out. It's not. It is one element in a larger picture of problematic behavior.

[Tahar Joblis]

How far are you going with your cultural appropriation line? In terms of the article you quoted talking about twerking as a cultural element that she's appropriating?

If one dance move were the extent of her racial appropriation, I don't think anyone would be particularly put out. It's not. It is one element in a larger picture of problematic behavior.

Let's say Cyrus wants to be black.

Is her wanting to be black actually a problem?

[Nailed to the Perch]

How is appropriating something typically associated with a certain race, racist? Because that, for example, implies that early rock musicians were racist for incorporating elements of the black dominated jazz tradition into their music, which sounds pretty ridiculous.

Are you serious? Early rock musicians have quite rightly taken a lot of flak from modern critics for their appropriation (read: outright theft in many cases) of black performers' music and musical styles. The only way that could sound "ridiculous" is if you've never read ANYTHING on the history of rock & roll.

[New England and The Maritimes]

C'mon people, sociological analysis isn't exactly the same as teaching yourself ancient Egyptian. Take even one class and you can understand this stuff just fine.

Has it occurred to you that a subject which can be understood "just fine" after one class might just not be the source of the One Great Font of Truth^TM about society, and might instead contain a high volume of bullshit to empirically justifiable claims, leading to such things being widely disrespected?

If you ever complete an introductory course and find yourself without the tools and knowledge base to even involve yourself seriously in discussions related to the discipline, you should probably either reassess whether or not you're ready for tertiary education, or demand a refund.

[Forsakia]

How is appropriating something typically associated with a certain race, racist? Because that, for example, implies that early rock musicians were racist for incorporating elements of the black dominated jazz tradition into their music, which sounds pretty ridiculous.

Are you serious? Early rock musicians have quite rightly taken a lot of flak from modern critics for their appropriation (read: outright theft in many cases) of black performers' music and musical styles. The only way that could sound "ridiculous" is if you've never read ANYTHING on the history of rock & roll.

Is this taking specific performers's music and styles, or in more general terms of a muscial genre?

[Ashmoria]

he was working on the vmas. sure he doesn't control her anymore but someone needs to tell her that there is a difference between looking like an adult and looking like jailbait. her dad is a really good person to make that call.

No, the principle still applies. She's not a minor anymore, she has her own career, and gee whiz she just made a good career move. This moral condemnation is starting to look frighteningly reactionary.

its not a moral condemnation. its not the move toward an adult image that she was hoping for. its not a good career move to keep herself in the Lolita ghetto.

[Ashmoria]

I haven't watched the VMAs in years & have little interest in "Music Television," but based on what I have seen and read, the Cyrus family is jacked up.

Billy Ray Cyrus is a bad father.

Nobody says the same thing about Robin Thicke's parents, though. I wonder why? Is it because people like you view women as property and men as full human beings? Yeah, that's actually exactly it.

it may be because robin thicke is 36.

[Grenartia]

Except, none of it was associated with race, so it can't be racist. Was it stupid? Yes. Hell, I can even see the arguments for it being mysogynistic. But it wasn't racist.

It was associated with race, and 1. Cyrus HERSELF said her sound was, paraphrasing "more black." 2. Her backup dancers were predominantly black, and the one she drug out to use as a sex object on stage is included in that.

1. Source.

2. Doesn't mean it was racist. I find the notion that the racial makeup of her backup dancers, and the race of the one dancer she objectified are proof of the entire thing being racist to be a racist notion in and of itself.

How is appropriating something typically associated with a certain race, racist? Because that, for example, implies that early rock musicians were racist for incorporating elements of the black dominated jazz tradition into their music, which sounds pretty ridiculous.

Dontcha know? Artists incorporating elements from other art (which just so happens to be predominately dominated by a certain ethnic group) that they like into their work is racist.

ELVIS WAS A MEMBER OF TEH KKK!!!

[The Truth and Light]

Isn't sharing between cultures and races normally a good thing? I'm just thinking.

[Condunum]

If one dance move were the extent of her racial appropriation, I don't think anyone would be particularly put out. It's not. It is one element in a larger picture of problematic behavior.

Let's say Cyrus wants to be black.

Is her wanting to be black actually a problem?

She's not trying to be black. She's trying to legitimize 'black things', and people don't like that.

[Ashmoria]

Let's say Cyrus wants to be black.

Is her wanting to be black actually a problem?

She's not trying to be black. She's trying to legitimize 'black things', and people don't like that.

I think they don't like that she sucks at it.

[New England and The Maritimes]

Isn't sharing between cultures and races normally a good thing? I'm just thinking.

Sure, but she's not attempting to share as much as attempting to glamorize herself with the blackness she is after.

[Nailed to the Perch]

Dontcha know? Artists incorporating elements from other art (which just so happens to be predominately dominated by a certain ethnic group) that they like into their work is racist.

ELVIS WAS A MEMBER OF TEH KKK!!!

Ah, I see we've reached the "shriek about how there are no options but 'not at all racist' and 'actively out to kill black people'" phase of the discussion. That's always fun.

On this site, "there is a black woman there whose entire function in the performance is to be a large ass for Ms. Cyrus to smack" cannot possibly count as racially insensitive unless Cyrus follows it up by saying, "ALSO I AM TOTALLY RACIST, Y'ALL. FUCK BLACK PEOPLE, TEE HEE."

Man, did I call it or what?

Sigh.

[Nailed to the Perch]

Let's say Cyrus wants to be black.

Is her wanting to be black actually a problem?

She's not trying to be black. She's trying to legitimize 'black things', and people don't like that.

Perhaps they don't like that it takes a white person to"legitimize" black culture.

[Grenartia]

Dontcha know? Artists incorporating elements from other art (which just so happens to be predominately dominated by a certain ethnic group) that they like into their work is racist.

ELVIS WAS A MEMBER OF TEH KKK!!!

Ah, I see we've reached the "shriek about how there are no options but 'not at all racist' and 'actively out to kill black people'" phase of the discussion. That's always fun.

On this site, "there is a black woman there whose entire function in the performance is to be a large ass for Ms. Cyrus to smack" cannot possibly count as racially insensitive unless Cyrus follows it up by saying, "ALSO I AM TOTALLY RACIST, Y'ALL. FUCK BLACK PEOPLE, TEE HEE."

Man, did I call it or what?

Sigh.

Again, I find it racist that just because she had black dancers, and incorporated elements from a subculture that just happens to be predominately black, she is a racist. Its basically saying that an artist (insomuch as Cyrus can be called an artist) from one race can't incorporate elements from a subculture composed predominately of another race, without that artist being a racist. Its a form of cultural segregation.