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The Official Syria (and all things about it) Thread

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Czechovelkov
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Postby Czechovelkov » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:46 pm

WASHINGTON—In light of increased pressure on President Obama to order a military strike on Syria, leading historians and military experts on Tuesday simply pointed to the United States’ longstanding and absolutely impeccable record of successful bombing campaigns over the past 60 years. “The record clearly shows that, in every instance since the Second World War in which the U.S. government has launched strategic missile attacks on foreign soil, our military forces easily targeted enemy assailants with total precision, leaving no civilian casualties, collateral damage, or any long-term negative consequences for the affected country or region, American foreign policy, or international relations as a whole,” said Harvard University historian Dr. Michael Carmona, adding that such past U.S. bombing operations have gone particularly well in Middle Eastern countries over the last century. “Just look at the 1954 bombings in Guatemala, the 1965-to-1973 bombings in Laos and Cambodia, the 1982 bombings in Beirut, the 1986 bombings in Libya, the 1987 bombings in Iran, the 1998 bombings in Iraq, the 1998 bombings in Sudan, the 1998 bombings in Afghanistan, routine airstrikes in Pakistan since 2005, the 2007 bombings in Somalia, the 2011 bombings in Somalia, and essentially the entire American military effort in Vietnam from 1960 to 1975. Those were all executed perfectly, and led, in the long run, to the most desirable possible outcome.” All experts on the subject then agreed unanimously that, if you want to create positive and lasting change in a troubled region, change that you will one day look back on with a deep sense of confidence, pride, and assurance that you did the right thing, then bombing campaigns are almost always the way to go.


They done terrible in 'Nam, what is he talking about?
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New Chalcedon
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Postby New Chalcedon » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:47 pm

Yes Im Biop wrote:Still not seeing a source


Perhaps you should pay attention, then.

Priory Academy USSR wrote:
New Chalcedon wrote:France built Iraq' Osriak nuclear reactor.


Was that anything to do with a weapons programme, or was it simply for power generation, though?


I'm prepared to believe that France believed that. However, between the highly-enriched fuel Iraq procured for the reactor and the fact that Hussein had been seeking nuclear weapons since the 1960s, I suspect that Osirak was half-and-half: there for legitimate power generation, yes, but also to enrich fuel, produce plutonium and give the core cadre of Iraq's fission engineers hands-on experience.
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Souriya Al-Assad
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Postby Souriya Al-Assad » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:48 pm

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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:48 pm

Czechovelkov wrote:
WASHINGTON—In light of increased pressure on President Obama to order a military strike on Syria, leading historians and military experts on Tuesday simply pointed to the United States’ longstanding and absolutely impeccable record of successful bombing campaigns over the past 60 years. “The record clearly shows that, in every instance since the Second World War in which the U.S. government has launched strategic missile attacks on foreign soil, our military forces easily targeted enemy assailants with total precision, leaving no civilian casualties, collateral damage, or any long-term negative consequences for the affected country or region, American foreign policy, or international relations as a whole,” said Harvard University historian Dr. Michael Carmona, adding that such past U.S. bombing operations have gone particularly well in Middle Eastern countries over the last century. “Just look at the 1954 bombings in Guatemala, the 1965-to-1973 bombings in Laos and Cambodia, the 1982 bombings in Beirut, the 1986 bombings in Libya, the 1987 bombings in Iran, the 1998 bombings in Iraq, the 1998 bombings in Sudan, the 1998 bombings in Afghanistan, routine airstrikes in Pakistan since 2005, the 2007 bombings in Somalia, the 2011 bombings in Somalia, and essentially the entire American military effort in Vietnam from 1960 to 1975. Those were all executed perfectly, and led, in the long run, to the most desirable possible outcome.” All experts on the subject then agreed unanimously that, if you want to create positive and lasting change in a troubled region, change that you will one day look back on with a deep sense of confidence, pride, and assurance that you did the right thing, then bombing campaigns are almost always the way to go.


They done terrible in 'Nam, what is he talking about?

The Onion is a satire site.
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Yehuddah
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Postby Yehuddah » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:50 pm

I'm showing the Israeli view (Not our "humanitarian" leaders, but the regular people who know's what's good for them)
I am highly against American intervention in Syria, it will just turn the Middle East even more chaotic.

I highly dislike Assad, but at least he is a rational leader, Al-Qaeda which fights him is much much worse.

But if Assad will attack us, his regime will be crushed.
Last edited by John of Giscala on Wed May 2, 68 19:32 pm, edited 3546 times in total.


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Maurepas
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Postby Maurepas » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:53 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Czechovelkov wrote:
They done terrible in 'Nam, what is he talking about?

The Onion is a satire site.

Farn, I sincerely apologize for linking to that. I was trying to make a point using said satirical article. I should've known better, *shakes head*, lol

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New Chalcedon
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Postby New Chalcedon » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:54 pm

Maurepas wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:The Onion is a satire site.

Farn, I sincerely apologize for linking to that. I was trying to make a point using said satirical article. I should've known better, *shakes head*, lol


Somewhere else, that may have worked, Maurepas. But this? This is NSG :P
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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:55 pm

Maurepas wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:The Onion is a satire site.

Farn, I sincerely apologize for linking to that. I was trying to make a point using said satirical article. I should've known better, *shakes head*, lol

Yes, you really should have. Oh, well, I love typing "The Onion is a satire site." Muscle-memory is starting to kick in now.
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Frisivisia
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Postby Frisivisia » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:55 pm

Can't have motherfuckers gassing people, can we?
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Yehuddah
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Postby Yehuddah » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:57 pm

Frisivisia wrote:Can't have motherfuckers gassing people, can we?

What western hypocrites.
100,000 people were killed, and you absolutely do nothing.
But when 200 people are killed by chemical weapon, THEN you intervene?

What the heck?
Last edited by John of Giscala on Wed May 2, 68 19:32 pm, edited 3546 times in total.


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Frisivisia
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Postby Frisivisia » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:58 pm

Yehuddah wrote:
Frisivisia wrote:Can't have motherfuckers gassing people, can we?

What western hypocrites.
100,000 people were killed, and you absolutely do nothing.
But when 200 people are killed by chemical weapon, THEN you intervene?

What the heck?

Warfare is warfare, but using chemical weapons on civilians is really bad news. It's like you haven't even heard about the Great War.
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Priory Academy USSR
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Postby Priory Academy USSR » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:59 pm

Yehuddah wrote:
Frisivisia wrote:Can't have motherfuckers gassing people, can we?

What western hypocrites.
100,000 people were killed, and you absolutely do nothing.
But when 200 people are killed by chemical weapon, THEN you intervene?

What the heck?


Chemical weapons are banned under international law. Regular weaponry isn't.
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New Chalcedon
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Postby New Chalcedon » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:01 pm

Frisivisia wrote:
Yehuddah wrote:What western hypocrites.
100,000 people were killed, and you absolutely do nothing.
But when 200 people are killed by chemical weapon, THEN you intervene?

What the heck?

Warfare is warfare, but using chemical weapons on civilians is really bad news. It's like you haven't even heard about the Great War.


Well, you're old enough...

*ducks thrown Zimmer frame*
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Napkiraly
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Postby Napkiraly » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:01 pm

Maurepas wrote:
Napkiraly wrote:Why not? Many times have other countries helped revolutionaries win.


http://www.theonion.com/articles/expert ... /?ref=auto
WASHINGTON—In light of increased pressure on President Obama to order a military strike on Syria, leading historians and military experts on Tuesday simply pointed to the United States’ longstanding and absolutely impeccable record of successful bombing campaigns over the past 60 years. “The record clearly shows that, in every instance since the Second World War in which the U.S. government has launched strategic missile attacks on foreign soil, our military forces easily targeted enemy assailants with total precision, leaving no civilian casualties, collateral damage, or any long-term negative consequences for the affected country or region, American foreign policy, or international relations as a whole,” said Harvard University historian Dr. Michael Carmona, adding that such past U.S. bombing operations have gone particularly well in Middle Eastern countries over the last century. “Just look at the 1954 bombings in Guatemala, the 1965-to-1973 bombings in Laos and Cambodia, the 1982 bombings in Beirut, the 1986 bombings in Libya, the 1987 bombings in Iran, the 1998 bombings in Iraq, the 1998 bombings in Sudan, the 1998 bombings in Afghanistan, routine airstrikes in Pakistan since 2005, the 2007 bombings in Somalia, the 2011 bombings in Somalia, and essentially the entire American military effort in Vietnam from 1960 to 1975. Those were all executed perfectly, and led, in the long run, to the most desirable possible outcome.” All experts on the subject then agreed unanimously that, if you want to create positive and lasting change in a troubled region, change that you will one day look back on with a deep sense of confidence, pride, and assurance that you did the right thing, then bombing campaigns are almost always the way to go

1954: The bombings successfully caused a panic among the Guatemalan military officers leading to the establishment of a military Junta. Kinda the goal of the CIA
Laos and Cambodia: Give you that one.
Vietnam: Give you that one in regards to trying to force the North Vietnamese to end it early. However, in the South, the US was winning militarily.
1982: Fire support for Marines acting as peacekeepers as they were being shot at? Yeah, they were there as peacekeepers and the goal wasn't to smash the opposition. If you're talking about the 1984 shellings, those were also not intended to overthrow or destroy one group, they were retaliation strikes to damage capabilities after the Barracks bombings.
1986: That was air raid to kill Gadaffi and limit the ability of the Libyan regime to support certain groups in retaliation to a Libyan attack on a disco hall. Overall it was a mixed bag. They failed to kill Gaddafi and there was an uptick in support for groups like the PIRA but there was a growth in Islamist movements that opposed in Gaddafi and he had to purge elements of his military. Not only that but his retaliation with Lockerbie kinda screwed over Libya with UN sanctions. Overalll, meh.
1998 Afghanistan and Sudan: Give you that one
1998: A bombing campaign against Iraq for failing to comply with UN demands. A lot of Iraqi military equipment and infrastructure. Plus the goal was to degrade Iraq's military capabilities, not eliminate them nor was it to overthrow Saddam Hussein. I'd say it was a success.
Pakistan: Overall results disputed, but AQ has been limited in its movements and safety. Taliban somewhat so.
Somalia: Targeted killings. Most of the fighting against al Shabaab is being done by other countries and they are currently winning.

And then you know, there is always Kosovo, Bosnia, Libya 2011

The overall record has been mixed. Of course meaning it's failed satire since the record is not a complete disaster.
Last edited by Napkiraly on Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Xanixi
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Postby Xanixi » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:04 pm

@ Souriya Al-Assad: No offence, but you seem to be saying a lot of stuff and claiming evidence, but not posting too much of it.
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The Arlington Republic
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Postby The Arlington Republic » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:06 pm

the united states needs to attack syria they are a threat and we need to help the rebels win the fight

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Divair
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Postby Divair » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:10 pm

The Arlington Republic wrote:the united states needs to attack syria they are a threat and we need to help the rebels win the fight

No.

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Yehuddah
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Postby Yehuddah » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:11 pm

The Arlington Republic wrote:the united states needs to attack syria they are a threat and we need to help the rebels win the fight

You realise the rebels are mainly Sunni Islamists right?
I mean, Assad's bad but he is rational, you may never know what an irrational leader would do.
Last edited by John of Giscala on Wed May 2, 68 19:32 pm, edited 3546 times in total.


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Postby Xanixi » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:11 pm

Divair wrote:
The Arlington Republic wrote:the united states needs to attack syria they are a threat and we need to help the rebels win the fight

No.


Well-said.
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Postby Pan Asian Amercian Coalition » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:15 pm

If it involves killing brown people and getting oil, the USA is on the boat
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Postby Napkiraly » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:17 pm

Yehuddah wrote:
The Arlington Republic wrote:the united states needs to attack syria they are a threat and we need to help the rebels win the fight

You realise the rebels are mainly Sunni Islamists right?
I mean, Assad's bad but he is rational, you may never know what an irrational leader would do.

The FSA is still the largest group and IIRC still uphold to secularism. The Syrian Islamic Liberation Front has said it'll uphold minority rights and as far as I know still want a democracy. The wack job groups are smaller and probably wont make up the majority of any government if at all. I'd rather have a democracy with a Islmaist lite government in charge than a secular autocrat. People have to stop thinking it should be liberal democracies or nothing else. Democracy should come first, then down the line if the country wants to, become secular.

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Postby Danhanjeedh » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:22 pm

Napkiraly wrote:
Yehuddah wrote:You realise the rebels are mainly Sunni Islamists right?
I mean, Assad's bad but he is rational, you may never know what an irrational leader would do.

The FSA is still the largest group and IIRC still uphold to secularism. The Syrian Islamic Liberation Front has said it'll uphold minority rights and as far as I know still want a democracy. The wack job groups are smaller and probably wont make up the majority of any government if at all. I'd rather have a democracy with a Islmaist lite government in charge than a secular autocrat. People have to stop thinking it should be liberal democracies or nothing else. Democracy should come first, then down the line if the country wants to, become secular.


source?

EDIT: And what i get is that you say that the US has done a good job in Iraq for example and that this is good for Iraq?
Last edited by Danhanjeedh on Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Napkiraly
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Postby Napkiraly » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:31 pm

Danhanjeedh wrote:
Napkiraly wrote:The FSA is still the largest group and IIRC still uphold to secularism. The Syrian Islamic Liberation Front has said it'll uphold minority rights and as far as I know still want a democracy. The wack job groups are smaller and probably wont make up the majority of any government if at all. I'd rather have a democracy with a Islmaist lite government in charge than a secular autocrat. People have to stop thinking it should be liberal democracies or nothing else. Democracy should come first, then down the line if the country wants to, become secular.


source?

EDIT: And what i get is that you say that the US has done a good job in Iraq for example and that this is good for Iraq?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/freedom-fighters-cannibals-the-truth-about-syrias-rebels-8662618.html

And no, the US invasion of Iraq as a muck up and they shouldn't have gone in. I'm an interventionist, but a pragmatic one. Iraq shouldn't have been invaded.
Last edited by Napkiraly on Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Trelso
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Postby Trelso » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:32 pm

Danhanjeedh wrote:
Napkiraly wrote:The FSA is still the largest group and IIRC still uphold to secularism. The Syrian Islamic Liberation Front has said it'll uphold minority rights and as far as I know still want a democracy. The wack job groups are smaller and probably wont make up the majority of any government if at all. I'd rather have a democracy with a Islmaist lite government in charge than a secular autocrat. People have to stop thinking it should be liberal democracies or nothing else. Democracy should come first, then down the line if the country wants to, become secular.


source?

EDIT: And what i get is that you say that the US has done a good job in Iraq for example and that this is good for Iraq?


The last BBC reported estimates of forces I saw stated FSA to have around 100,000 fighters, and Al-Nusra (that is the Syrian Islamic Liberation Front right?) having... I think it was 46,000. Less than the FSA for certain. That said, Al-Nusra's are probably even more estimated than the FSA's, and this was a couple of months back and the FSA has been struggling to achieve much strategically for most of the year, so I suspect their numbers have been thinned by casualties and desertions, whilst my understanding is that Al-Nusra support is on the increase.

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Napkiraly
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Postby Napkiraly » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:34 pm

Trelso wrote:
Danhanjeedh wrote:
source?

EDIT: And what i get is that you say that the US has done a good job in Iraq for example and that this is good for Iraq?


The last BBC reported estimates of forces I saw stated FSA to have around 100,000 fighters, and Al-Nusra (that is the Syrian Islamic Liberation Front right?) having... I think it was 46,000. Less than the FSA for certain. That said, Al-Nusra's are probably even more estimated than the FSA's, and this was a couple of months back and the FSA has been struggling to achieve much strategically for most of the year, so I suspect their numbers have been thinned by casualties and desertions, whilst my understanding is that Al-Nusra support is on the increase.

No, Al-Nusra is a different group.

You're thinking of the Syrian Islamic Front.
Last edited by Napkiraly on Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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