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Booze and Rape

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Llamalandia
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Postby Llamalandia » Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:15 pm

Cameroi wrote:rape is at least potentially interesting in erotic literature. booze in not interesting in anything.


Well yeah and given that romance novels are oft cited as a source of womens' rape fantasies i'm not sure it's entirely out of the realm of reasonableness to consider that fiction does in fact reflect larger social norm and mores. gieven that between 31 to 57% of women have such fantasies and 9 to 17% find them deirable or preferred.

Here's the source adn no this isn't an excuse for rapists, but it illustrates the point that fiction and society are constantly influencing and reflecting to some extent the desires adn sensibilities of one another.


Adversary Transformation - In one survey of romance novels (which tend to be written by and for women), the lead female character was raped in 54%. The male heroes are usually rugged warrior types and these books may illustrate a desire to "conquer the heart of the rapist" and tame him for marriage.


Source:http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/psyched/200805/why-do-women-have-erotic-rape-fantasies

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Dyakovo
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Postby Dyakovo » Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:28 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:That is not what you initially said.


Where in that does it say "Based on my close group of personal friends and no other observations?"

In fact the post you responded to actually said
"Society doth decree that social events alcohol and sex are all intertwined."

You are assuming that because that is how you and your friends view parties, that society as a whole views parties that way.
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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:01 pm

Dyakovo wrote:You are assuming that because that is how you and your friends view parties, that society as a whole views parties that way.


Nope. I already explained how I made my assessment, you said "that's not what you said before." You're assuming I'm drawing solely on my circle of friends then giving me shit about drawing assumptions based on my circle of friends despite the fact I've made it abundantly clear that that is not the case.
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Edlichbury
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Postby Edlichbury » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:28 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:You are assuming that because that is how you and your friends view parties, that society as a whole views parties that way.


Nope. I already explained how I made my assessment, you said "that's not what you said before." You're assuming I'm drawing solely on my circle of friends then giving me shit about drawing assumptions based on my circle of friends despite the fact I've made it abundantly clear that that is not the case.

Then please, show us any proof that all of society believes it is virtually impossible to party without drinking.

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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:42 pm

Edlichbury wrote:Then please, show us any proof that all of society believes it is virtually impossible to party without drinking.


1. Not what I said
2. The vast majority of depictions in popular culture
3. The existence of bars and clubs whose sole purpose is to combine socializing and alcohol.
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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:03 am

Des-Bal wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:I'm saying you can't use works of fiction for reference on how society expects you to behave.


Again, you are patently wrong. Look at any work of fiction and look how the characters behave, look at what actions are treated as good and which ones are treated as bad what you are seeing is the societal values being reflected in the work.

I don't understand how you can honestly say this, you aren't arguing that the glass is half empty rather than half full you're arguing the sky is green with polka dots.

Judging by this, society's ideal man shows no compunction in regards to killing when he isn't outright enjoying it, is alcoholic, makes flippant jokes at women being murdered, and presumes sex with every woman he pleases (James Bond). Or Mack the Knife with muscles (Riddick).
Last edited by The Parkus Empire on Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:17 am

Aurora Novus wrote:I mean, look at all the fictional works that have themes of friendship and love and loyalty, and other traits we typically associate as being "good" values. Are you honestly saying that seeing these themes so prevalent in works of fiction, is not evidence that we as a society value these traits?

Loyalty/fealty is valued in a trait in others by every tier and every incarnation of society. Even those who do not value it within themselves, value it in others.
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Aurora Novus
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Postby Aurora Novus » Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:34 am

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Aurora Novus wrote:I mean, look at all the fictional works that have themes of friendship and love and loyalty, and other traits we typically associate as being "good" values. Are you honestly saying that seeing these themes so prevalent in works of fiction, is not evidence that we as a society value these traits?

Loyalty/fealty is valued in a trait in others by every tier and every incarnation of society. Even those who do not value it within themselves, value it in others.


And this negates what I was saying...how, exactly?

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:51 am

Aurora Novus wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:Loyalty/fealty is valued in a trait in others by every tier and every incarnation of society. Even those who do not value it within themselves, value it in others.


And this negates what I was saying...how, exactly?

It doesn't, it just makes the point poor, since even anti-social people value that. It's a trait that you can group in with physically attractive, smart and witty.
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Aurora Novus
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Postby Aurora Novus » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:56 am

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Aurora Novus wrote:
And this negates what I was saying...how, exactly?

It doesn't, it just makes the point poor, since even anti-social people value that. It's a trait that you can group in with physically attractive, smart and witty.


I don't see how it makes the point poor at all. My point was that social values can be discerned through that societies' media. And you seem to have only reaffirmed that. That makes the point anything but poor.

That people outside the typical social functionality value those same traits, at least in certain situations, only strengthens my point. It does not weaken it.

And my point does not stop at those values alone. 100 years ago you could see how our society embraced racism, by virtue of it's media. We can see how societies' views on gender have changed, by comparing older literature to newer, and the roles and ways of writing the male and female characters.


You are simply, patently, flat out wrong. Different societies create different media that reflects that societies' values and beliefs. This is a known and readily observable fact.
Last edited by Aurora Novus on Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:07 am

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Judging by this, society's ideal man shows no compunction in regards to killing when he isn't outright enjoying it, is alcoholic, makes flippant jokes at women being murdered, and presumes sex with every woman he pleases (James Bond). Or Mack the Knife with muscles (Riddick).


That's totally accurate if you're incapable of appreciating nuance.
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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:27 am

Maybe TV tropes can handle this discussion.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... Dissonance

The vast majority of references on this page are going to be about differing societal values observed through the lens of fiction.
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Dyakovo
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Postby Dyakovo » Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:50 am

Des-Bal wrote:Maybe TV tropes can handle this discussion.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... Dissonance

The vast majority of references on this page are going to be about differing societal values observed through the lens of fiction.

Fiction is, by definition, not reality.
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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:16 am

Dyakovo wrote:Fiction is, by definition, not reality.


So you clearly haven't been following the discourse you've chosen to take part of. It has been submitted that works of fiction are capable of providing insight into the societies that spawned them. Parkus has contested this because he likes to be contrary. Defining fiction in no way contributes to this discussion.
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Aurora Novus
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Postby Aurora Novus » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:21 pm

Dyakovo wrote:
Des-Bal wrote:Maybe TV tropes can handle this discussion.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... Dissonance

The vast majority of references on this page are going to be about differing societal values observed through the lens of fiction.

Fiction is, by definition, not reality.


Of course.

But that does not mean works of fiction do not have truths about the world in which they were created strewn about them.

Or is London not a real place, because it was written about in the Harry Potter series?

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Edlichbury
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Postby Edlichbury » Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:09 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Edlichbury wrote:Then please, show us any proof that all of society believes it is virtually impossible to party without drinking.


1. Not what I said


viewtopic.php?f=20&t=259177&p=16406571#p16406571

Des-Bal wrote:
Distruzio wrote:

That's not quite right. I drink - often. I just don't have sex while drinking. Ever.


Do you do things? Like do you exist near people sometimes? "Party" is latin for "get drunk and fuck."

I'm sorry, but how the fuck is that quote not showing that, according to you, society believes it inconceivable to go to a party and not drink?

An accusation that of course is based entirely in the realm of fiction and your personal ideas on what socialization should be.

Des-Bal wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:
Judging by this, society's ideal man shows no compunction in regards to killing when he isn't outright enjoying it, is alcoholic, makes flippant jokes at women being murdered, and presumes sex with every woman he pleases (James Bond). Or Mack the Knife with muscles (Riddick).


That's totally accurate if you're incapable of appreciating nuance.

Said by the man, who as shown above, believes parties to merely be a collection of alcohol and sex. But hey, maybe really all parties are simply depraved orgies and the things that I, my friends, my co-workers, and basically everyone else on the planet calls "parties" aren't actually parties at all. That, or apparently birthday parties for five-year-old's are missing crucial elements.
Last edited by Edlichbury on Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:46 pm

Edlichbury wrote:
I'm sorry, but how the fuck is that quote not showing that, according to you, society believes it inconceivable to go to a party and not drink?

An accusation that of course is based entirely in the realm of fiction and your personal ideas on what socialization should be.




Because it isn't? I was using hyperbole to demonstrate the relationship between social gatherings alcohol and sex sure I accept responsibility for using exaggeration to make a point but I did sort of clarify what I meant repeatedly over several posts. If you're incapable of appreciating that I don't know what else is going to be happening here.

Nope.
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