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Booze and Rape

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Zottistan
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Postby Zottistan » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:15 am

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Zottistan wrote:Emotionally immature people are easy to influence and manipulate, just like drunk people.

That is correct

So if a sober person having sex with a drunk person is rape because the sober person has more influence on the drunk person, being seen as the voice of reason, an emotionally mature person having sex with an emotionally immature person is rape.

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:19 am

Zottistan wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:That is correct

So if a sober person having sex with a drunk person is rape because the sober person has more influence on the drunk person, being seen as the voice of reason, an emotionally mature person having sex with an emotionally immature person is rape.

Emotional maturity isn't easy to define legally, but we use age a guideline and it works pretty well.
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The Truth and Light
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Postby The Truth and Light » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:19 am

Zottistan wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:That is correct

So if a sober person having sex with a drunk person is rape because the sober person has more influence on the drunk person, being seen as the voice of reason, an emotionally mature person having sex with an emotionally immature person is rape.

Which is why we have the age of consent.

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Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro
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Postby Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:21 am

Zottistan wrote:
Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro wrote:It is "their fault", then.

For getting severely intoxicated, for not having how to accesse reliable people they'd trust, for trusting people that are semi-reliable, for not getting their STD prevention and birth control methods accessible, updated and easy to use.

If I do drugs and go to a gay party and do a banheirão or a darkroom and get AIDS, I am not going to cry like a baby and try to put guys in prison.

You could say the same thing about somebody being murdered wandering down a dark alley. "They shouldn't have been going down there, it's their fault."

Other people will. And some of them would have a valid claim. The problem is deciding which do have a valid claim and which don't.

They wouldn't because they were likely asking for it. That is how we survive in Brazil, if they don't know because they're irresponsive youngsters pretending to be adults, it is no one's business.

Be drugged to be raped is a thing. Get drugged yourself ignoring possible jeopardizing situations is a whole other.
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Zottistan
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Postby Zottistan » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:21 am

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Zottistan wrote:So if a sober person having sex with a drunk person is rape because the sober person has more influence on the drunk person, being seen as the voice of reason, an emotionally mature person having sex with an emotionally immature person is rape.

Emotional maturity isn't easy to define legally, but we use age a guideline and it works pretty well.

Neither is lucidity or degree of control. Should there be a cutoff point where a person is too drunk to consent to sex?
The Truth and Light wrote:
Zottistan wrote:So if a sober person having sex with a drunk person is rape because the sober person has more influence on the drunk person, being seen as the voice of reason, an emotionally mature person having sex with an emotionally immature person is rape.

Which is why we have the age of consent.

Exactly. So we should have a cutoff point where somebody has been too intoxicated to consent to sex.

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The Truth and Light
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Postby The Truth and Light » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:22 am

Zottistan wrote:Exactly. So we should have a cutoff point where somebody has been too intoxicated to consent to sex.

I thought we did. >->

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:24 am

Zottistan wrote:Neither is lucidity or degree of control. Should there be a cutoff point where a person is too drunk to consent to sex?

Yes, the point where they are too drunk to consent to sex.
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Zottistan
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Postby Zottistan » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:26 am

The Truth and Light wrote:
Zottistan wrote:Exactly. So we should have a cutoff point where somebody has been too intoxicated to consent to sex.

I thought we did. >->

I've never heard of it.
The Parkus Empire wrote:
Zottistan wrote:Neither is lucidity or degree of control. Should there be a cutoff point where a person is too drunk to consent to sex?

Yes, the point where they are too drunk to consent to sex.

Which is when?

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Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro
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Postby Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:27 am

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Zottistan wrote:So if a sober person having sex with a drunk person is rape because the sober person has more influence on the drunk person, being seen as the voice of reason, an emotionally mature person having sex with an emotionally immature person is rape.

Emotional maturity isn't easy to define legally, but we use age a guideline and it works pretty well.

It turns non-rape situations (14 x 21, a pedorape? Fucking c'mon, gringoes) into inexcusable crimes agaisnt the dignity of not really suffering persons. Even if their long-term relationship might end because of this, what is more hurting than the sex (yes, consented) itself.

Just as those often stupid anti-zoophilia and anti-incest laws.
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Zottistan
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Postby Zottistan » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:29 am

Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro wrote:
Zottistan wrote:You could say the same thing about somebody being murdered wandering down a dark alley. "They shouldn't have been going down there, it's their fault."

Other people will. And some of them would have a valid claim. The problem is deciding which do have a valid claim and which don't.

They wouldn't because they were likely asking for it. That is how we survive in Brazil, if they don't know because they're irresponsive youngsters pretending to be adults, it is no one's business.

Be drugged to be raped is a thing. Get drugged yourself ignoring possible jeopardizing situations is a whole other.

Consent to being intoxicated isn't consent to sex.

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The Truth and Light
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Postby The Truth and Light » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:30 am

Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:Emotional maturity isn't easy to define legally, but we use age a guideline and it works pretty well.

It turns non-rape situations (14 x 21, a pedorape? Fucking c'mon, gringoes) into inexcusable crimes agaisnt the dignity of not really suffering persons. Even if their long-term relationship might end because of this, what is more hurting than the sex (yes, consented) itself.

Just as those often stupid anti-zoophilia and anti-incest laws.

A twenty-one-year-old having relations with a fourteen-year-old is not sex. It is rape.

Sex is a physical relationship between consenting equals.

I find it to be idiotic that you want to excuse the abuse of minor citizens.
Last edited by The Truth and Light on Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Forster Keys
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Postby Forster Keys » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:30 am

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Galloism wrote:You do know that the south is primarily republican, and the south is also a lot poorer, right?

Do the poor view the rich as the voice of reason? Are they trained to? Are the poor inherently easier to emotionally manipulate than the rich?


Poor people are stupid and dirty and should not be trusted. I know this shit.
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Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro
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Postby Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:35 am

The Truth and Light wrote:
Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro wrote:It turns non-rape situations (14 x 21, a pedorape? Fucking c'mon, gringoes) into inexcusable crimes agaisnt the dignity of not really suffering persons. Even if their long-term relationship might end because of this, what is more hurting than the sex (yes, consented) itself.

Just as those often stupid anti-zoophilia and anti-incest laws.

A twenty-one-year-old having relations with a fourteen-year-old is not sex. It is rape.

Sex is a physical relationship between consenting equals.

I find it to be idiotic that you want to excuse the abuse of minor citizens.

And I find it hilarious that out of Brazil people think that mid-adolescents are little children while the youngest adults all can behave like manipulative monsters who only would do anything to ~defilate~

More than anything mid-adolescents have much greater talent for psychopathic-like traits in average (and I know it by my own former deeds).
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Test: Seemingly, libertarian communism was renamed "social democracy"
Compass: economic left -9.85, social libertarian -8.97
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Born 12/94. Weird in all senses starting at 07/2000. NSG's resident euro-carioca bara-fudanshi useless lazy perv. Agnostic atheist (not anti-religious), bi-affective homosexual/demiheterosexual (and bi-curious i.e. chronologically 95% bisexual-ish but 5% true bi), slightly more masculine of both tad neutral and tad ambiguous gender (human-/oneself-identified genderqueer; he, xe or ou, your preference), naturist, "worker" class, mildly hipster/japanophile, etc.

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Zottistan
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Postby Zottistan » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:35 am

The Truth and Light wrote:
Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro wrote:It turns non-rape situations (14 x 21, a pedorape? Fucking c'mon, gringoes) into inexcusable crimes agaisnt the dignity of not really suffering persons. Even if their long-term relationship might end because of this, what is more hurting than the sex (yes, consented) itself.

Just as those often stupid anti-zoophilia and anti-incest laws.

A twenty-one-year-old having relations with a fourteen-year-old is not sex. It is rape.

Sex is a physical relationship between consenting equals.

I find it to be idiotic that you want to excuse the abuse of minor citizens.

There are exceptions to every rule. There are people above the age of consent who are too emotionally immature to consent to sex, and people below the age of consent who, realistically, are mature and physically developed enough to consent to sex.

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The Truth and Light
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Postby The Truth and Light » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:38 am

Zottistan wrote:
The Truth and Light wrote:A twenty-one-year-old having relations with a fourteen-year-old is not sex. It is rape.

Sex is a physical relationship between consenting equals.

I find it to be idiotic that you want to excuse the abuse of minor citizens.

There are exceptions to every rule. There are people above the age of consent who are too emotionally immature to consent to sex, and people below the age of consent who, realistically, are mature and physically developed enough to consent to sex.

They are not legally equals. Their socio-economic status creates a power imbalance. Which is why it makes it a Bad Idea.

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Zottistan
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Postby Zottistan » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:41 am

The Truth and Light wrote:
Zottistan wrote:There are exceptions to every rule. There are people above the age of consent who are too emotionally immature to consent to sex, and people below the age of consent who, realistically, are mature and physically developed enough to consent to sex.

They are not legally equals. Their socio-economic status creates a power imbalance. Which is why it makes it a Bad Idea.

What should be doesn't adapt around the law. The law adapts around what should be. There are people who are over the age of consent but have the same power imbalance due to psychological differences.

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The Rich Port
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Postby The Rich Port » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:21 am

The Parkus Empire wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:It does, but that doesn't stop people from raping each other.

Because that's what they're doing.

No it isn't, that's so fucking stupid it hurts. The woman who got me into alcohol always got drunk before looking for sex because she much preferred drunk sex (on the part of both parties), she was not being fucking raped every time.


Wait... She got drunk... Every time before you had sex?
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Starkiller101
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Postby Starkiller101 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:41 am

Alchoal has a lot to do with people getting rapped
Last edited by Starkiller101 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Rich Port
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Postby The Rich Port » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:45 am

Starkiller101 wrote:Alchoal has a lot to do with people getting rapped


Not in my current life.

Actually, come to think of it, I don't think I've heard of anything major happen around campus.

Methinks there was plenty of partying in the spring.
LAUGH, AND GROW FAT
FIRE. IF IT TAKES YOU TO BURN.
FIRE. IF IT TAKES YOU TO LEARN.
FIRE. TO DESTROY ALL YOU'VE DONE.
FIRE. TO DESTROY ALL YOU'VE BECOME.
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Starkiller101
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Postby Starkiller101 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:46 am

The Rich Port wrote:
Starkiller101 wrote:Alchoal has a lot to do with people getting rapped


Not in my current life.

Actually, come to think of it, I don't think I've heard of anything major happen around campus.

Methinks there was plenty of partying in the spring.
But alcohol makes you do stupid things such as running naked on the streets and saying things you would't usually say.
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The Rich Port
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Postby The Rich Port » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:48 am

Starkiller101 wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:
Not in my current life.

Actually, come to think of it, I don't think I've heard of anything major happen around campus.

Methinks there was plenty of partying in the spring.
But alcohol makes you do stupid things such as running naked on the streets and saying things you would't usually say.


I haven't done either of those things... Recently.

Not ALL of the time.

The Demon Drink isn't as hard as, say, heroin.

People just abuse it more because it's legal and they're stupid to begin with.
LAUGH, AND GROW FAT
FIRE. IF IT TAKES YOU TO BURN.
FIRE. IF IT TAKES YOU TO LEARN.
FIRE. TO DESTROY ALL YOU'VE DONE.
FIRE. TO DESTROY ALL YOU'VE BECOME.
THOSE THAT SOW THORNS SHOULD NOT EXPECT FLOWERS.
YOU NEVER KNOW JUST HOW YOU LOOK THROUGH OTHER PEOPLE'S EYES.

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:54 am

The Rich Port wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:No it isn't, that's so fucking stupid it hurts. The woman who got me into alcohol always got drunk before looking for sex because she much preferred drunk sex (on the part of both parties), she was not being fucking raped every time.


Wait... She got drunk... Every time before you had sex?

Yup. And not just with me, with everyone I'd ever seen her have sex with (she'd fuck in the middle of a party). When we booked a room, she'd always get at least one bottle of Jack and we'd kill it first.
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Postby Tahar Joblis » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:56 am

The Truth and Light wrote:
Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro wrote:It turns non-rape situations (14 x 21, a pedorape? Fucking c'mon, gringoes) into inexcusable crimes agaisnt the dignity of not really suffering persons. Even if their long-term relationship might end because of this, what is more hurting than the sex (yes, consented) itself.

Just as those often stupid anti-zoophilia and anti-incest laws.

A twenty-one-year-old having relations with a fourteen-year-old is not sex. It is rape.

Sex is a physical relationship between consenting equals.

I find it to be idiotic that you want to excuse the abuse of minor citizens.

The Truth and Light wrote:
Zottistan wrote:There are exceptions to every rule. There are people above the age of consent who are too emotionally immature to consent to sex, and people below the age of consent who, realistically, are mature and physically developed enough to consent to sex.

They are not legally equals. Their socio-economic status creates a power imbalance. Which is why it makes it a Bad Idea.

Not that I think fourteen year olds are, in fact, old enough to be having sex with adults, but you might want to tighten up that argument. I mean, holding out for "equal" partners with equal SES means that every Cinderella story from Ye Xian to Pretty Woman is celebrating repeated rape.

Consent doesn't require that you be physical, intellectual, economic, or whatever equals. You can either be equal, or you can be good enough. An 18 year old with an IQ of 90 who dropped out of high school and has never earned a cent in their life is still capable of consenting to sex with Bill Gates, Marylin Vos Savant, or the entire moderation team of NationStates.

In the case of deficiency, we typically need relative as well as absolute deficiency; equality is sufficient but not strictly necessary. In this, drunkenness and age can be treated as quite similar; any standard that does not set the bar at a level of incapacity high enough to eliminate the possibility of initiating sex (i.e., more or less passed out or close to it) must refer to the relative level of inebriation between the two individuals.

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The Rich Port
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Postby The Rich Port » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:57 am

The Parkus Empire wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:
Wait... She got drunk... Every time before you had sex?

Yup. And not just with me, with everyone I'd ever seen her have sex with (she'd fuck in the middle of a party). When we booked a room, she'd always get at least one bottle of Jack and we'd kill it first.


That... Sounds... Unhealthy.

But, anyway, how is it stupid?

What the hell are they doing, then?

They're incapable of consent if they're both drunk.
LAUGH, AND GROW FAT
FIRE. IF IT TAKES YOU TO BURN.
FIRE. IF IT TAKES YOU TO LEARN.
FIRE. TO DESTROY ALL YOU'VE DONE.
FIRE. TO DESTROY ALL YOU'VE BECOME.
THOSE THAT SOW THORNS SHOULD NOT EXPECT FLOWERS.
YOU NEVER KNOW JUST HOW YOU LOOK THROUGH OTHER PEOPLE'S EYES.

Tracking | History | Factbook | Dharma
Economic Report | Regional Forum | Political Compass
CAPINTERN | OMSA | OZZY | PACT | APAC
Summary | Vanguard | The Book Of Sue
THE BILLION BIT BRONY
AHAHAHAHA PONY PONY PONY PONYYY


LOVEWHOYOUARE~


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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:08 am

The Rich Port wrote:That... Sounds... Unhealthy.


It was definitely fun though, since both she and I get super horny when drunk.

But, anyway, how is it stupid?

What the hell are they doing, then?

They're incapable of consent if they're both drunk.


I consented, she consented. Who are you to tell us we didn't?
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