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by Purpelia » Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:22 am
by The Parkus Empire » Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:30 am
Zottistan wrote:The Parkus Empire wrote:The point at which which you are noticeably affected at all is buzzed. The point at which you are physically impaired is tipsy. The point at which you walk around like you're on a tight rope is shitfaced.
If I'm buzzed or sober and a drunk woman tries to blow me, I'll stop her. But if I'm tipsy or worse, I'll just be like, "Fuck yeah!" As long as we're both enthusiastic it's not rape on her part or mine.
I'm pretty sure you can drug people to be enthusiastic towards sex. That wouldn't be rape?
by Forsakia » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:08 am
Purpelia wrote:The central point of it all is that rape is not defined by who said what whilst drunk. It is defined by how both parties feel about it once they sober up the next morning. And that is something that has to be kept in mind at all times.
Ostroeuropa wrote:When I drink i'm more of a "Let's all talk about our feels bro" person than a "Let's have sex" person, so i'll never understand what compels people to have sex drunk really.
That said, in my opinion, there has to be a sufficient difference in level of sobriety for it to be rape.
Sober VS 1 glass of cider? Unlikely to be rape.
Sober VS a bottle of vodka? Probably rape.
Vodka VS Vodka? Unlikely.
etc
by Horsefish » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:21 am
Forsakia wrote:Seems illogical to me (from a legal rather than a moral sense). How does you level of intoxication affect her ability to consent? If she's able to consent then you being sober is irrelevant, if she isn't able then you being drunk is equally irrelevant.
Areopagitican wrote:I'm not an expert in the field of moron, but what I think he's saying is that if you have to have sex with Shakira (or another dirty ethnic), at the very least, it must be part of a threesome with a white woman. It's a sacrifice, but someone has to make it.
Geniasis wrote:Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go bludgeon some whales to death with my 12-ft dick.
The Western Reaches wrote:I learned that YOU are the reason I embarrassed myself by saying "Horsefish" instead of "Seahorse" this one time in school.
by Forsakia » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:23 am
Horsefish wrote:Forsakia wrote:Seems illogical to me (from a legal rather than a moral sense). How does you level of intoxication affect her ability to consent? If she's able to consent then you being sober is irrelevant, if she isn't able then you being drunk is equally irrelevant.
Well it doesn't affect her ability to consent, but if both of you are in the state of being unable to give informed consent then it's tricky to determine who raped/took advantage of who and as such is typically treated differently from a sober person picking up someone who is completely smashed.
by Horsefish » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:25 am
Forsakia wrote:Horsefish wrote:
Well it doesn't affect her ability to consent, but if both of you are in the state of being unable to give informed consent then it's tricky to determine who raped/took advantage of who and as such is typically treated differently from a sober person picking up someone who is completely smashed.
Surely if you're too drunk to consent you're too drunk to rape/take advantage of someone.
Areopagitican wrote:I'm not an expert in the field of moron, but what I think he's saying is that if you have to have sex with Shakira (or another dirty ethnic), at the very least, it must be part of a threesome with a white woman. It's a sacrifice, but someone has to make it.
Geniasis wrote:Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go bludgeon some whales to death with my 12-ft dick.
The Western Reaches wrote:I learned that YOU are the reason I embarrassed myself by saying "Horsefish" instead of "Seahorse" this one time in school.
by Forsakia » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:35 am
Horsefish wrote:Forsakia wrote:
Surely if you're too drunk to consent you're too drunk to rape/take advantage of someone.
Well, you can give consent to things when you're drunk but it's not informed consent because you're inebriated which affects your judgement. You may still be able to physically perform the deed.
by The Parkus Empire » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:44 am
Horsefish wrote:Forsakia wrote:
Surely if you're too drunk to consent you're too drunk to rape/take advantage of someone.
Well, you can give consent to things when you're drunk but it's not informed consent because you're inebriated which affects your judgement. You may still be able to physically perform the deed.
by Ifreann » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:44 am
by Frisivisia » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:52 am
Ifreann wrote:The whole "Both drunk, so it's okay" thing has always rustled my jimmies.
by Horsefish » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:53 am
Forsakia wrote:Horsefish wrote:
Well, you can give consent to things when you're drunk but it's not informed consent because you're inebriated which affects your judgement. You may still be able to physically perform the deed.
I suppose I don't think of it as "well technically you raped each other so we'll cancel it out" but more if you're both sober enough to get it on together then you're sober enough to consent.
(Again talking in a strictly legal non-moral sense here).
The Parkus Empire wrote:I really don't look at it as a matter of informed consent, I look at it as a matter of power dynamic and manipulation. Same as I look at AoC
Ifreann wrote:The whole "Both drunk, so it's okay" thing has always rustled my jimmies.
Areopagitican wrote:I'm not an expert in the field of moron, but what I think he's saying is that if you have to have sex with Shakira (or another dirty ethnic), at the very least, it must be part of a threesome with a white woman. It's a sacrifice, but someone has to make it.
Geniasis wrote:Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go bludgeon some whales to death with my 12-ft dick.
The Western Reaches wrote:I learned that YOU are the reason I embarrassed myself by saying "Horsefish" instead of "Seahorse" this one time in school.
by The Parkus Empire » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:55 am
by Frisivisia » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:57 am
by The Parkus Empire » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:59 am
Frisivisia wrote:The Parkus Empire wrote:And trying to stop one is about as practical as trying to stop the other.
The problem being that adults might try to take advantage of a fourteen-year-old due to the power difference, but the kid should be able to have sex with those at the same level of emotional maturity, no?
by Fulflood » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:04 am
Purpelia wrote:The central point of it all is that rape is not defined by who said what whilst drunk. It is defined by how both parties feel about it once they sober up the next morning.
Straight male British apatheist pacifist environmentalist social liberal
by Ifreann » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:05 am
by Horsefish » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:09 am
Areopagitican wrote:I'm not an expert in the field of moron, but what I think he's saying is that if you have to have sex with Shakira (or another dirty ethnic), at the very least, it must be part of a threesome with a white woman. It's a sacrifice, but someone has to make it.
Geniasis wrote:Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go bludgeon some whales to death with my 12-ft dick.
The Western Reaches wrote:I learned that YOU are the reason I embarrassed myself by saying "Horsefish" instead of "Seahorse" this one time in school.
by Ifreann » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:14 am
Horsefish wrote:Ifreann wrote:Hmm, hadn't thought of it like that. Just seemed to me that whether Alice is sober enough to consent or not doesn't depend on how much Bob has been drinking.
But, Bob's ability to gauge whether Alice is sober enough to consent is going to be impacted by how much he has been drinking
by Forsakia » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:17 am
Horsefish wrote:Forsakia wrote:
I suppose I don't think of it as "well technically you raped each other so we'll cancel it out" but more if you're both sober enough to get it on together then you're sober enough to consent.
(Again talking in a strictly legal non-moral sense here).
I'm sure the example's been bought up before, but you can't consent to medical tests/procedures when pissed because of the problem of consent. It's the same logic just applied to sex, just with the added problem of both parties being unable to give consent. I'm not sure what the legal position on it is, I imagine it wouldn't be taken further unless there was actual proof beyond waking up and not remembering anything.
by Frisivisia » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:19 am
by Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:19 am
Frisivisia wrote:The Parkus Empire wrote:And trying to stop one is about as practical as trying to stop the other.
The problem being that adults might try to take advantage of a fourteen-year-old due to the power difference, but the kid should be able to have sex with those at the same level of emotional maturity, no?
by The Parkus Empire » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:20 am
by Knowlandia » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:20 am
by Horsefish » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:21 am
Forsakia wrote:Yes, but you can take that all over the map. You can buy something for example and the contract of sale would be valid, if you commit crimes you're considered to have the mens rea thingy sufficient to be guilty of them etc.
The Parkus Empire wrote:If she can't talk at all then obviously she can't give consent, informed or not.
Areopagitican wrote:I'm not an expert in the field of moron, but what I think he's saying is that if you have to have sex with Shakira (or another dirty ethnic), at the very least, it must be part of a threesome with a white woman. It's a sacrifice, but someone has to make it.
Geniasis wrote:Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go bludgeon some whales to death with my 12-ft dick.
The Western Reaches wrote:I learned that YOU are the reason I embarrassed myself by saying "Horsefish" instead of "Seahorse" this one time in school.
by The Parkus Empire » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:25 am
Horsefish wrote:Ifreann wrote:If Bob can't tell whether Alice is consenting or not, he really shouldn't be having sex with her.
If Alice is drunk enough to impair her judgement to prevent her giving informed consent then Bob having sex with her could technically be called rape surely?
It depends on how drunk we're talking- if she's falling all over the place and can't talk at all, then Bob should be able to notice that he shouldn't be having sex with her whatever state he's in (unless it's comparable, but in that case I doubt either would be able to perform)
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