Booze and Rape

[Dyakovo]

Not in my experience...

Yeah, but you=/= society, which is probably why he/she said society, not Dyakovo.

You miss the point. He is declaring that his social group is the standard for all of society.
Just like my experience does not define all of society, neither does his.

[George Kaplan]

Yeah, but you=/= society, which is probably why he/she said society, not Dyakovo.

You miss the point. He is declaring that his social group is the standard for all of society.
Just like my experience does not define all of society, neither does his.

I was actually agreeing with his comment not just based off what his own social group may do, but by what standards society reflects in television, music and books. And the drinking+sex seems to be a common and popular theme.

Of course I'm not saying that's what everybody does, that you are superior/flawed if you do/don't do that. But I think society, at least a good part of it, has embraced alcohol and sex.

[Des-Bal]

You miss the point. He is declaring that his social group is the standard for all of society.
Just like my experience does not define all of society, neither does his.

No I'm declaring that my perception of society is an adequate assessment of society. I'm declaring that it is easily possible to look at the existence of clubs, bars, basically any type of social gathering and say "socializing, getting drunk, and fucking are closely intertwined." Is that an unreasonable thing to declare? Are we declaring that society and culture are impossible to judge in any capacity? That's a hell of a thing to declare.

Declare.

[The Parkus Empire]

what standards society reflects in television, music and books.

Shitty, shitty metrics.

[Dyakovo]

You miss the point. He is declaring that his social group is the standard for all of society.
Just like my experience does not define all of society, neither does his.

No I'm declaring that my perception of society is an adequate assessment of society. I'm declaring that it is easily possible to look at the existence of clubs, bars, basically any type of social gathering and say "socializing, getting drunk, and fucking are closely intertwined." Is that an unreasonable thing to declare? Are we declaring that society and culture are impossible to judge in any capacity? That's a hell of a thing to declare.

Declare.

That is not what you initially said.

"Party" is latin for "get drunk and fuck."

[Llamalandia]

what standards society reflects in television, music and books.

Shitty, shitty metrics.

Respectfully what metrics would you propose we use?

[The Parkus Empire]

Shitty, shitty metrics.

Respectfully what metrics would you propose we use?

Reality.

[Llamalandia]

Respectfully what metrics would you propose we use?

Reality.

Ok, but what does that mean? I mean I've heard people say "perception is reality". I don't agree and I hope your not suggesting that individgual perception alone is an objective guide here.

Essentially Iguess i'd ask you kindly to elaborate on "reality".

[The Parkus Empire]

Reality.

Ok, but what does that mean? I mean I've heard people say "perception is reality". I don't agree and I hope your not suggesting that individgual perception alone is an objective guide here.

Essentially Iguess i'd ask you kindly to elaborate on "reality".

Use studies and polls if you want, but not fiction and gangsta rap.

[Llamalandia]

Ok, but what does that mean? I mean I've heard people say "perception is reality". I don't agree and I hope your not suggesting that individgual perception alone is an objective guide here.

Essentially Iguess i'd ask you kindly to elaborate on "reality".

Use studies and polls if you want, but not fiction and gangsta rap.

Well based on a poll (admittedly low sample size so far :
Poll Results

Question: Is it rape if a very drunk woman has sex with a sober man?
Only if she regrets it in the morning

6%
Yes, it is rape no matter what

9%
It`s not rape at all if she consented to the sex

84%
Total Votes: 32

http://www.cafemom.com/group/416/forums/read/13096925/Drunk_woman_sober_man_Is_this_rape_Poll_included

And with respect cafemom doesn't sound like a site full of rape apologists to me.

Seems that polls and fiction may not be as far apart as you think.

[The Parkus Empire]

Use studies and polls if you want, but not fiction and gangsta rap.

Well based on a poll (admittedly low sample size so far :
Poll Results

Question: Is it rape if a very drunk woman has sex with a sober man?
Only if she regrets it in the morning

6%
Yes, it is rape no matter what

9%
It`s not rape at all if she consented to the sex

84%
Total Votes: 32

http://www.cafemom.com/group/416/forums/read/13096925/Drunk_woman_sober_man_Is_this_rape_Poll_included

And with respect cafemom doesn't sound like a site full of rape apologists to me.

Seems that polls and fiction may not be as far apart as you think.

Not impugning your source, but women are probably more rape apolgist prone than men are, demographically speaking: http://www.kkcomcon.com/OJRU/ROJR0107-5.htm

[The Rich Port]

Really, Rich Port, you HAD to bring this topic up?

Seriously, it is obvious that, as long as you are not mentally impaired by drugs, or alcohol, to give consent to have sex (either verbally or non-verbally) it doesn't constitute rape. It's almost the same standard as with contracts.

This cannot get more simple than that.

If it were as simple as that, there wouldn't be so much serious discussion about it.

And I've checked.

Thread's pretty srs, u gaiz.

Here I thought some summertime jobber was gonna show up and get it locked.

And, frankly, you're not the whole world.

Same goes to Gravlen.

[Chishimotata]

Really, Rich Port, you HAD to bring this topic up?

Seriously, it is obvious that, as long as you are not mentally impaired by drugs, or alcohol, to give consent to have sex (either verbally or non-verbally) it doesn't constitute rape. It's almost the same standard as with contracts.

This cannot get more simple than that.

If it were as simple as that, there wouldn't be so much serious discussion about it.

And I've checked.

Thread's pretty srs, u gaiz.

Here I thought some summertime jobber was gonna show up and get it locked.

And, frankly, you're not the whole world.

Same goes to Gravlen.

It is early September... I'm presuming that a lot of the immature little twats who come here over the summer are at school now.

[Gravlen]

Really, Rich Port, you HAD to bring this topic up?

Seriously, it is obvious that, as long as you are not mentally impaired by drugs, or alcohol, to give consent to have sex (either verbally or non-verbally) it doesn't constitute rape. It's almost the same standard as with contracts.

This cannot get more simple than that.

If it were as simple as that, there wouldn't be so much serious discussion about it.

And I've checked.

Thread's pretty srs, u gaiz.

Here I thought some summertime jobber was gonna show up and get it locked.

And, frankly, you're not the whole world.

Same goes to Gravlen.

Hmm?

Ya know, people said this thread would have devolved into people saying how awesome rape is.

Well, I say, HA, naysayers!

As it turns out, everyone is really confused about who rapes who when you're drunk!

Not really. I'm not. To me, it's relatively straight forward.

[Gravlen]

As you are well aware, my posts can be pretty aggressive and I apologize for speculating about bad faith when there was a simple misunderstanding.

I also appreciate that you are willing to reconsider your overall view and your thoughtful rethinking of your anecdote.

We've had enough encounters over the years for you (I'd hope) to recognize that I'm far from one to take offense at correction.

When I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I've no shame in admitting that. I'm not on the site to be correct. I'm on the site for conversation. In order to facilitate and perpetuate conversation, one must be willing to acknowledge the breadth of knowledge and wisdom of others.

Our other exchanges on a certain topic notwithstanding, I've no reason to dismiss your commentary out of hand. Your opinions (even where you are incorrect ) are a great insight for me. So, please... you needn't fret the little things. An aggressive tone is one thing. Being a dick is another. You are hardly a dick.

As to the latter, I think we have cleared up the confusion. Jury verdicts in most U.S. criminal cases are usually a "black box" into which evidence and legal instructions are put in and a verdict comes out without no one outside the jury knowing the basis for the verdict. A guilty verdict can be challenged by the defendant -- both on legal grounds and for sufficiency of the evidence -- but the latter is a deferential review of whether enough evidence was presented that a jury could have found a particular element of a crime existed. Not-guilty verdicts can almost never be challenged -- even for legal error.

I did check the relevant Georgia law (but not exhaustively) and I'll try to briefly simplify it. The actual Georgia statutes on rape, sexual assault, and sexual violence are mostly archaic (and even offensive regarding gender, etc.) in wording, but the Georgia courts have clarified and modernized the actual working law. The basic rule is that sex with someone who "is physically or mentally unable to give consent to the act" because the are intoxicated, drugged, or unconscious is rape. Thus, intoxication or being under the influence of drugs only makes sex into rape when it is severe enough to physically or mentally incapacitate a party. There is no such thing as mutual rape. Georgia's blanket rule is that voluntary intoxication is not a defense to a crime, but evidence that a defendant was intoxicated or drugged may well raise reasonable doubt as to an element of rape. For example, a defendant is not guilty of rape if there is reasonable doubt as to whether she or he was passed out due to drinking at the time an alleged rape occurred.

Of course, the detail of the law of any jurisdiction can get complicated, the letter of the law does not always control an outcome of the criminal justice system, and public perception is often (if not usually) different than the law.

Ah... so my definition of rape (regarding the particularities of this subject) was incorrect. That raises interesting (personal) questions for me: why am I so uncomfortable with inebriated sex then? Why do I feel like I'm raping someone if I do (and I have, in the past) explore sensuality under the influence? etc etc. These are relevant to the topic of the OP but not, necessarily, the topic of our discussion.

*shrug*

I've been wrong before. It'll happen again. You, Parkus, Gravlen, and others will be there to slap me back into reality. That's not something I fear. I'll fight tooth and nail to defend my opinions (incorrect or not) but where there are contentions made, I pay attention.

Thanks.

I have to say, you deserve credit and respect for being willing to reevaluate your position and change it in public. There's not a lot of that happening on NSG

[George Kaplan]

what standards society reflects in television, music and books.

Shitty, shitty metrics.

Nevertheless.

[The Rich Port]

If it were as simple as that, there wouldn't be so much serious discussion about it.

And I've checked.

Thread's pretty srs, u gaiz.

Here I thought some summertime jobber was gonna show up and get it locked.

And, frankly, you're not the whole world.

Same goes to Gravlen.

Hmm?

Not really. I'm not. To me, it's relatively straight forward.

... Exactly.

[Des-Bal]

That is not what you initially said.

"Party" is latin for "get drunk and fuck."

Where in that does it say "Based on my close group of personal friends and no other observations?"

In fact the post you responded to actually said
"Society doth decree that social events alcohol and sex are all intertwined."

[Stone Press]

Please tell me you're not this simple-minded.
The issue is not whether or not she is drunk.
The issue is if she is so heavily intoxicated that she cannot stand; her speech is slurred and she has no clue of where she is, then don't assume that she can consent to sex.
It is not difficult to understand what exactly consensual sex is.

[Des-Bal]

what standards society reflects in television, music and books.

Shitty, shitty metrics.

You're saying you can't judge a culture based on it's aggregate cultural works? That is not correct, I was going to say something cutting and vaguely witty but that is just blatantly wrong.

[The Parkus Empire]

Shitty, shitty metrics.

You're saying you can't judge a culture based on it's aggregate cultural works? That is not correct, I was going to say something cutting and vaguely witty but that is just blatantly wrong.

I'm saying you can't use works of fiction for reference on how society expects you to behave.

[Aurora Novus]

You're saying you can't judge a culture based on it's aggregate cultural works? That is not correct, I was going to say something cutting and vaguely witty but that is just blatantly wrong.

I'm saying you can't use works of fiction for reference on how society expects you to behave.

I'm not so certain about that. Even if something is fiction, that does not mean that an author's value cannot shine through and be discerned from the work. And if many authors incorporate the same values into their works, it can be said quite easily I think that it is evidence of a broader cultural value within that society.


I mean, look at all the fictional works that have themes of friendship and love and loyalty, and other traits we typically associate as being "good" values. Are you honestly saying that seeing these themes so prevalent in works of fiction, is not evidence that we as a society value these traits?

[Cameroi]

rape is at least potentially interesting in erotic literature. booze in not interesting in anything.

[Des-Bal]

I'm saying you can't use works of fiction for reference on how society expects you to behave.

Again, you are patently wrong. Look at any work of fiction and look how the characters behave, look at what actions are treated as good and which ones are treated as bad what you are seeing is the societal values being reflected in the work.

I don't understand how you can honestly say this, you aren't arguing that the glass is half empty rather than half full you're arguing the sky is green with polka dots.

[Des-Bal]

rape is at least potentially interesting in erotic literature. booze in not interesting in anything.

My fifth of Ancient Age disagrees. I am getting serious enjoyment out of very simple things right now.