Booze and Rape

[Ostroeuropa]

I'm pretty sure you can drug people to be enthusiastic towards sex. That wouldn't be rape?

Sure, if you slip in in their food or something without them knowing, or if you get them to use it because they wouldn't be enthuaistic without it. Aphrodisiacs are not inherently rape tho, no

So hold up.
Your problem with drunk sex is
OHMYGOSH manipulation!

But you're fine with up and declaring drugs that directly and are practically guarantee'd to manipulate you into agreeing to sex are not inherently rapey if you use them without the other person knowing?

[The Rich Port]

Nobody who is drunk can desire to have sex?

Not necessarilly, are you arguing that being drunk doesn't impede consent?

It does, but that doesn't stop people from raping each other.

Because that's what they're doing.

I guess it helps some people are too drunk to even get into the right position.

[The Parkus Empire]

Nobody who is drunk can desire to have sex?

Not necessarilly, are you arguing that being drunk doesn't impede consent?

Acting like a creep "impedes consent". Being drunk doesn't, really, it just makes your mind more malleable to willful influence.

[Des-Bal]

Acting like a creep "impedes consent". Being drunk doesn't, really, it just makes your mind more malleable to willful influence.

Could you go into detail?

[Ostroeuropa]

Not necessarilly, are you arguing that being drunk doesn't impede consent?

Acting like a creep "impedes consent". Being drunk doesn't, really, it just makes your mind more malleable to willful influence.

And now you're back to talking about influence.
Seriously, you're all over the map at this point.

[The Parkus Empire]

It does, but that doesn't stop people from raping each other.

Because that's what they're doing.

No it isn't, that's so fucking stupid it hurts. The woman who got me into alcohol always got drunk before looking for sex because she much preferred drunk sex (on the part of both parties), she was not being fucking raped every time.

[Zottistan]

Sure, if you slip in in their food or something without them knowing, or if you get them to use it because they wouldn't be enthuaistic without it. Aphrodisiacs are not inherently rape tho, no

So hold up.
Your problem with drunk sex is
OHMYGOSH manipulation!

But you're fine with up and declaring drugs that directly and are practically guarantee'd to manipulate you into agreeing to sex are not inherently rapey if you use them without the other person knowing?

No, no, he said it would be rape to use aphrodisiacs without the other person's consent.

[The Parkus Empire]

Acting like a creep "impedes consent". Being drunk doesn't, really, it just makes your mind more malleable to willful influence.

Could you go into detail?

If a sober person tells a drunk person, "Take off your clothes," it's a lot more commanding than sober person telling a sober person that, or a drunk person telling a drunk person that.

[Ostroeuropa]

So hold up.
Your problem with drunk sex is
OHMYGOSH manipulation!

But you're fine with up and declaring drugs that directly and are practically guarantee'd to manipulate you into agreeing to sex are not inherently rapey if you use them without the other person knowing?

No, no, he said it would be rape to use aphrodisiacs without the other person's consent.

Oh. Right.
Sorry.
I'm gonna go, this is too difficult right now

[Des-Bal]

If a sober person tells a drunk person, "Take off your clothes," it's a lot more commanding than sober person telling a sober person that, or a drunk person telling a drunk person that.

I get that basic premise but I need you to lay out your reasoning for me.

[Galloism]

Um, no. I read the appellant and respondent arguments.

The state still has to prove that the victim did not consent beyond a reasonable doubt. Both appellant and respondent agree on this point. The respondent states this element was proved beyond a reasonable doubt by the prosecution calling the victim to testify as to her incapacity.

The question is whether jury instruction 13 confused the jury as to the relevant law, which, the way it was given (which was agreed to by both appellant and respondent), I tend to lean toward the appellant. The jury might have taken it as a judge's comment on the evidence, and combined two steps in deliberation (was she incapacitated? If not, acquit. If so, did the accused know it? If not, acquit. If so, convict.). What the court did not do was intentionally shift the burden of proof. Everyone agrees mens rea has to be approved.

Now, was the jury confused by the instruction...? Maybe. Which is why we have appeals.

It would seem i've been misled. thanks for correcting me.

Booze and Rape sounded like an epic party at first, now, not so much

Rape isn't funny.
*sneezes confetti*

Well, this is one of those cases where, if *everyone* is to be believed (which may or may not be true), the victim might have been blacked out drunk but not passed out drunk.

Coherent, speaking clearly, walking straight, but storing no memory of the night's events.

When the victim wakes up, they smell like sex and know it. Logically, however, he/she has no memory of it, so the victim assumes he or she was raped while passed out.

Which is one of the... bad things about alcohol, particularly for people who have mid to high tolerance of it.

[Zottistan]

Not necessarilly, are you arguing that being drunk doesn't impede consent?

Acting like a creep "impedes consent". Being drunk doesn't, really, it just makes your mind more malleable to willful influence.

Let's say you were a surgeon. A guy comes in, clearly pissed, and demands a sex change. You give it to him, and once sober he realizes he really didn't want a sex change. At the time of surgery, you, the surgeon, were completely aware that the man was drunk.

You're saying it would be ok for you to do the surgery?

[Des-Bal]

Let's say you were a surgeon. A guy comes in, clearly pissed, and demands a sex change. You give it to him, and once sober he realizes he really didn't want a sex change. At the time of surgery, you, the surgeon, were completely aware that the man was drunk.

You're saying it would be ok for you to do the surgery?

The level of Informed Consent necessary to authorize a medical procedure is very different from the level of informed consent necessary to engage in sexual intercourse.

If a man walks into your convenience store pissed and demands a candy bar can you take his money even though you know he's drunk?

[The Parkus Empire]

If a sober person tells a drunk person, "Take off your clothes," it's a lot more commanding than sober person telling a sober person that, or a drunk person telling a drunk person that.

I get that basic premise but I need you to lay out your reasoning for me.

Sober people are socially designated as the voice of reason to drunk people, drunk people are supposed to heed what they say as responsible, to respect it. Drunk people are also easier to confuse, mislead and trick. So it's a lot easier for a sober person to manipulate a drunk person into sex than it is for a drunk person to manipulate a drunk person. It's the exact same dynamic as kids and adults.

[Des-Bal]

Sober people are socially designated as the voice of reason to drunk people, drunk people are supposed to heed what they say as responsible, to respect it. Drunk people are also easier to confuse, mislead and trick. So it's a lot easier for a sober person to manipulate a drunk person into sex than it is for a drunk person to manipulate a drunk person. It's the exact same dynamic as kids and adults.

Isn't the same thing true of stupid, socially awkward, and poor people?

[The Parkus Empire]

Acting like a creep "impedes consent". Being drunk doesn't, really, it just makes your mind more malleable to willful influence.

Let's say you were a surgeon. A guy comes in, clearly pissed, and demands a sex change. You give it to him, and once sober he realizes he really didn't want a sex change. At the time of surgery, you, the surgeon, were completely aware that the man was drunk.

You're saying it would be ok for you to do the surgery?

You can't order up a sex change in one day even if you're sober.

[Galloism]

Let's say you were a surgeon. A guy comes in, clearly pissed, and demands a sex change. You give it to him, and once sober he realizes he really didn't want a sex change. At the time of surgery, you, the surgeon, were completely aware that the man was drunk.

You're saying it would be ok for you to do the surgery?

You can't order up a sex change in one day even if you're sober.

Unless you go to Mexico.

[The Parkus Empire]

Sober people are socially designated as the voice of reason to drunk people, drunk people are supposed to heed what they say as responsible, to respect it. Drunk people are also easier to confuse, mislead and trick. So it's a lot easier for a sober person to manipulate a drunk person into sex than it is for a drunk person to manipulate a drunk person. It's the exact same dynamic as kids and adults.

Isn't the same thing true of stupid, socially awkward, and poor people?

If by stupid you mean mentally challenged, then yes, a person in possession of all their faculties should not be able to fuck a mentally challenged person

Socially awkward? You mean socially stunted? Yeah, makes sense, although that's impossible codify legally.

Poor? Yes, it generally come in the form of prostitution.

[Zottistan]

Let's say you were a surgeon. A guy comes in, clearly pissed, and demands a sex change. You give it to him, and once sober he realizes he really didn't want a sex change. At the time of surgery, you, the surgeon, were completely aware that the man was drunk.

You're saying it would be ok for you to do the surgery?

The level of Informed Consent necessary to authorize a medical procedure is very different from the level of informed consent necessary to engage in sexual intercourse.

If a man walks into your convenience store pissed and demands a candy bar can you take his money even though you know he's drunk?

A guy buying a candy bar isn't going to have lasting negative effects. Sex can cause pregnancy which either has long-term effects in it's own right or causes abortion, which can occasionally have lasting psychological damage. Let's say a guy, clearly pissed, offers you two hundred thousand euro for a yacht. Should you sell him the yacht?

[The Parkus Empire]

You can't order up a sex change in one day even if you're sober.

Unless you go to Mexico.

Yeah....

[Des-Bal]

If by stupid you mean mentally challenged, then yes, a person in possession of all their faculties should not be able to fuck a mentally challenged person

Socially awkward? You mean socially stunted? Yeah, makes sense, although that's impossible codify legally.

Poor? Yes, it generally come in the form of prostitution.

No just generally stupid.

Just awkward.

Not prostitution, just poor.

[Zottistan]

Let's say you were a surgeon. A guy comes in, clearly pissed, and demands a sex change. You give it to him, and once sober he realizes he really didn't want a sex change. At the time of surgery, you, the surgeon, were completely aware that the man was drunk.

You're saying it would be ok for you to do the surgery?

You can't order up a sex change in one day even if you're sober.

You're missing the point. A person shouldn't be able to consent to something that can have long term negative impacts while intoxicated.

[The Parkus Empire]

If by stupid you mean mentally challenged, then yes, a person in possession of all their faculties should not be able to fuck a mentally challenged person

Socially awkward? You mean socially stunted? Yeah, makes sense, although that's impossible codify legally.

Poor? Yes, it generally come in the form of prostitution.

No just generally stupid.

Just awkward.

Not prostitution, just poor.

That's arbitrary.

That's arbitrary.

Poor people are not taught by society to view the rich as the voice of reason.

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

The level of Informed Consent necessary to authorize a medical procedure is very different from the level of informed consent necessary to engage in sexual intercourse.

If a man walks into your convenience store pissed and demands a candy bar can you take his money even though you know he's drunk?

A guy buying a candy bar isn't going to have lasting negative effects. Sex can cause pregnancy which either has long-term effects in it's own right or causes abortion, which can occasionally have lasting psychological damage. Let's say a guy, clearly pissed, offers you two hundred thousand euro for a yacht. Should you sell him the yacht?

Most often people aren't all ZOMG BABIES when it comes to sex because there are ways to prevent it...

[Galloism]

No just generally stupid.

Just awkward.

Not prostitution, just poor.

That's arbitrary.

That's arbitrary.

Poor people are not taught by society to view the rich as the voice of reason.

I would like to direct you to the entire Republican Party platform.