Booze and Rape

[Purpelia]

The central point of it all is that rape is not defined by who said what whilst drunk. It is defined by how both parties feel about it once they sober up the next morning. And that is something that has to be kept in mind at all times.

[The Parkus Empire]

The point at which which you are noticeably affected at all is buzzed. The point at which you are physically impaired is tipsy. The point at which you walk around like you're on a tight rope is shitfaced.

If I'm buzzed or sober and a drunk woman tries to blow me, I'll stop her. But if I'm tipsy or worse, I'll just be like, "Fuck yeah!" As long as we're both enthusiastic it's not rape on her part or mine.

I'm pretty sure you can drug people to be enthusiastic towards sex. That wouldn't be rape?

Sure, if you slip in in their food or something without them knowing, or if you get them to use it because they wouldn't be enthuaistic without it. Aphrodisiacs are not inherently rape tho, no

[Forsakia]

The central point of it all is that rape is not defined by who said what whilst drunk. It is defined by how both parties feel about it once they sober up the next morning. And that is something that has to be kept in mind at all times.

No it isn't. You are either consenting or not at the time.

When I drink i'm more of a "Let's all talk about our feels bro" person than a "Let's have sex" person, so i'll never understand what compels people to have sex drunk really.
That said, in my opinion, there has to be a sufficient difference in level of sobriety for it to be rape.

Sober VS 1 glass of cider? Unlikely to be rape.
Sober VS a bottle of vodka? Probably rape.
Vodka VS Vodka? Unlikely.

etc

Seems illogical to me (from a legal rather than a moral sense). How does you level of intoxication affect her ability to consent? If she's able to consent then you being sober is irrelevant, if she isn't able then you being drunk is equally irrelevant.

[Horsefish]

Seems illogical to me (from a legal rather than a moral sense). How does you level of intoxication affect her ability to consent? If she's able to consent then you being sober is irrelevant, if she isn't able then you being drunk is equally irrelevant.

Well it doesn't affect her ability to consent, but if both of you are in the state of being unable to give informed consent then it's tricky to determine who raped/took advantage of who and as such is typically treated differently from a sober person picking up someone who is completely smashed.

[Forsakia]

Seems illogical to me (from a legal rather than a moral sense). How does you level of intoxication affect her ability to consent? If she's able to consent then you being sober is irrelevant, if she isn't able then you being drunk is equally irrelevant.

Well it doesn't affect her ability to consent, but if both of you are in the state of being unable to give informed consent then it's tricky to determine who raped/took advantage of who and as such is typically treated differently from a sober person picking up someone who is completely smashed.

Surely if you're too drunk to consent you're too drunk to rape/take advantage of someone.

[Horsefish]

Well it doesn't affect her ability to consent, but if both of you are in the state of being unable to give informed consent then it's tricky to determine who raped/took advantage of who and as such is typically treated differently from a sober person picking up someone who is completely smashed.

Surely if you're too drunk to consent you're too drunk to rape/take advantage of someone.

Well, you can give consent to things when you're drunk but it's not informed consent because you're inebriated which affects your judgement. You may still be able to physically perform the deed.

[Forsakia]

Surely if you're too drunk to consent you're too drunk to rape/take advantage of someone.

Well, you can give consent to things when you're drunk but it's not informed consent because you're inebriated which affects your judgement. You may still be able to physically perform the deed.

I suppose I don't think of it as "well technically you raped each other so we'll cancel it out" but more if you're both sober enough to get it on together then you're sober enough to consent.

(Again talking in a strictly legal non-moral sense here).

[The Parkus Empire]

Surely if you're too drunk to consent you're too drunk to rape/take advantage of someone.

Well, you can give consent to things when you're drunk but it's not informed consent because you're inebriated which affects your judgement. You may still be able to physically perform the deed.

I really don't look at it as a matter of informed consent, I look at it as a matter of power dynamic and manipulation. Same as I look at AoC

[Ifreann]

The whole "Both drunk, so it's okay" thing has always rustled my jimmies.

[Frisivisia]

The whole "Both drunk, so it's okay" thing has always rustled my jimmies.

Really? I think it much the same as having underage kids being able to have sex with each other but not adults.

[Horsefish]

Well, you can give consent to things when you're drunk but it's not informed consent because you're inebriated which affects your judgement. You may still be able to physically perform the deed.

I suppose I don't think of it as "well technically you raped each other so we'll cancel it out" but more if you're both sober enough to get it on together then you're sober enough to consent.

(Again talking in a strictly legal non-moral sense here).

I'm sure the example's been bought up before, but you can't consent to medical tests/procedures when pissed because of the problem of consent. It's the same logic just applied to sex, just with the added problem of both parties being unable to give consent. I'm not sure what the legal position on it is, I imagine it wouldn't be taken further unless there was actual proof beyond waking up and not remembering anything.

I really don't look at it as a matter of informed consent, I look at it as a matter of power dynamic and manipulation. Same as I look at AoC

Seems reasonable.

The whole "Both drunk, so it's okay" thing has always rustled my jimmies.

It's definitely not as simple as that.

[The Parkus Empire]

The whole "Both drunk, so it's okay" thing has always rustled my jimmies.

Really? I think it much the same as having underage kids being able to have sex with each other but not adults.

And trying to stop one is about as practical as trying to stop the other.

[Frisivisia]

Really? I think it much the same as having underage kids being able to have sex with each other but not adults.

And trying to stop one is about as practical as trying to stop the other.

The problem being that adults might try to take advantage of a fourteen-year-old due to the power difference, but the kid should be able to have sex with those at the same level of emotional maturity, no?

[The Parkus Empire]

And trying to stop one is about as practical as trying to stop the other.

The problem being that adults might try to take advantage of a fourteen-year-old due to the power difference, but the kid should be able to have sex with those at the same level of emotional maturity, no?

Exactly, and I have said, it's mainly about power differences. And I'm saying that telling drunk people not to have sex with each other is going to be about as effective as telling teenagers not to have sex with each other.

[Fulflood]

The central point of it all is that rape is not defined by who said what whilst drunk. It is defined by how both parties feel about it once they sober up the next morning.

Please never be on a rape jury.

[Ifreann]

The whole "Both drunk, so it's okay" thing has always rustled my jimmies.

Really? I think it much the same as having underage kids being able to have sex with each other but not adults.

Hmm, hadn't thought of it like that. Just seemed to me that whether Alice is sober enough to consent or not doesn't depend on how much Bob has been drinking.

[Horsefish]

Really? I think it much the same as having underage kids being able to have sex with each other but not adults.

Hmm, hadn't thought of it like that. Just seemed to me that whether Alice is sober enough to consent or not doesn't depend on how much Bob has been drinking.

But, Bob's ability to gauge whether Alice is sober enough to consent is going to be impacted by how much he has been drinking

[Ifreann]

Hmm, hadn't thought of it like that. Just seemed to me that whether Alice is sober enough to consent or not doesn't depend on how much Bob has been drinking.

But, Bob's ability to gauge whether Alice is sober enough to consent is going to be impacted by how much he has been drinking

If Bob can't tell whether Alice is consenting or not, he really shouldn't be having sex with her.

[Forsakia]

I suppose I don't think of it as "well technically you raped each other so we'll cancel it out" but more if you're both sober enough to get it on together then you're sober enough to consent.

(Again talking in a strictly legal non-moral sense here).

I'm sure the example's been bought up before, but you can't consent to medical tests/procedures when pissed because of the problem of consent. It's the same logic just applied to sex, just with the added problem of both parties being unable to give consent. I'm not sure what the legal position on it is, I imagine it wouldn't be taken further unless there was actual proof beyond waking up and not remembering anything.

Yes, but you can take that all over the map. You can buy something for example and the contract of sale would be valid, if you commit crimes you're considered to have the mens rea thingy sufficient to be guilty of them etc.
[/quote]

[Frisivisia]

Really? I think it much the same as having underage kids being able to have sex with each other but not adults.

Hmm, hadn't thought of it like that. Just seemed to me that whether Alice is sober enough to consent or not doesn't depend on how much Bob has been drinking.

But it's not about one of them consenting, it's about them mutually consenting, something which, while dubious, seems to be fine while they're both impaired.

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

And trying to stop one is about as practical as trying to stop the other.

The problem being that adults might try to take advantage of a fourteen-year-old due to the power difference, but the kid should be able to have sex with those at the same level of emotional maturity, no?

I remember I'd get freaked out if a guy older than 16 looked at me in the male restroom or locker room. Even though I did this with my friend when I was 7 in the earlier case, and with 12- and 13-year-olds playing soccer to get fit when I was 8 in the latter.

13-year-olds are not necessarily silly kids (especially here) and there are childish, inoccent, harmless 17-year-olds, but I was conditioned to assuming threat for the latter ones for various reasons. My defense for our current age of consent as 14 - instead of advocating it to be lowered to 12 as some - notwithstanding, because for some 13-year-olds doing what I started at 7 and 8 and what tons of people here do at ages 12 and 13 (almost including me) would be as negative as if it all started when I was 4. The emotional maturity thing seems biased though and I only believe it when I see sources accessing specifically why a 13-year-old can't, or most likely won't, consent (if that's the age of consent in Argentina, Spain, South Korea and Japan), because taking rapes allegedly against people younger than 18 very seriously (at least in the countries where police is fucking misogynistic) is the minimal we'd expect anyway.

But yeah, that is pretty much my reasoning too, indeed.

[The Parkus Empire]

Really? I think it much the same as having underage kids being able to have sex with each other but not adults.

Hmm, hadn't thought of it like that. Just seemed to me that whether Alice is sober enough to consent or not doesn't depend on how much Bob has been drinking.

It doesn't have to do with her ability to consent, it has to do with his ability to manipulate her into consent.

[Knowlandia]

You could stop drinking yourself into a stupor for "fun". Or you can stop having sex with strangers.

[Horsefish]

But, Bob's ability to gauge whether Alice is sober enough to consent is going to be impacted by how much he has been drinking

If Bob can't tell whether Alice is consenting or not, he really shouldn't be having sex with her.

If Alice is drunk enough to impair her judgement to prevent her giving informed consent then Bob having sex with her could technically be called rape surely?

It depends on how drunk we're talking- if she's falling all over the place and can't talk at all, then Bob should be able to notice that he shouldn't be having sex with her whatever state he's in (unless it's comparable, but in that case I doubt either would be able to perform)

Yes, but you can take that all over the map. You can buy something for example and the contract of sale would be valid, if you commit crimes you're considered to have the mens rea thingy sufficient to be guilty of them etc.

In all fairness, I'm not really a scholar on rape laws nor legal things so I'm not really sure what the terms are nor what happens.

I just avoid having sex with drunk people unless we're already sleeping together. Seems to be the best way forward.

If she can't talk at all then obviously she can't give consent, informed or not.

Bit of a piss poor example, I'll give you that.

[The Parkus Empire]

If Bob can't tell whether Alice is consenting or not, he really shouldn't be having sex with her.

If Alice is drunk enough to impair her judgement to prevent her giving informed consent then Bob having sex with her could technically be called rape surely?

It depends on how drunk we're talking- if she's falling all over the place and can't talk at all, then Bob should be able to notice that he shouldn't be having sex with her whatever state he's in (unless it's comparable, but in that case I doubt either would be able to perform)

If she can't talk at all then obviously she can't give consent, informed or not.