Russia - Gay Rights - Sochi Olympics Megathread

[Geilinor]

Russian healthcare is terrible. https://docs.google.com/viewer?docex=1&url=http://www.du.edu/korbel/hrhw/researchdigest/russia/health.pdf The life expectancy is only 69.

qq for russiaz

The lower line is men, isn't it? There must be a crazily serious alcohol problem.

[Shofercia]

No, I'm just wondering if they lied to the authorities about their purpose to visit Russia. If they did, they're not law abiding. It's as simple as that.

There's nothing to suggest that. Does the law say LGBT people are barred from visiting Russia? I don't think it goes that far. As a member of the Council of Europe, much of Europe should be after Russia by now if that was the case.

Nope. That would be stupid. I was referring to the activities that they wanted to perform, not who they are. Are you in Russia on a Tourist Visa, or on a Work Related Visa? That's what I was referring to. Because if you enter Russia on a Tourist Visa, and you want to work in Russia, you should apply for a Work Visa, instead of trying to take short cuts. I don't know what visa they had, but shooting a documentary doesn't seem something that a tourist would do, so it seems more work related than tourist related.

[Shofercia]

qq for russiaz

The lower line is men, isn't it? There must be a crazily serious alcohol problem.

Or it could be the result of wars that went on in the 1980s, 1990s and 2000s. There wasn't much treatment available for those who fought in the 1980s and 1990s. Alcoholism is much less of a problem, thanks to Putin's Reforms: http://blogs-images.forbes.com/markadom ... holism.png

[Lyttenburgh]

And now for something completly different (c)

Oh great and wise Westerners, may I, just a common Russian member of intelligencia (so I got branded "liberal" and "democrat" by the other Russians despite my actual political leanings), ask you - what is your strategy on making the homosexuality more acceptable in the Russian Federation? But first, a reality check:

1) 88% of Russians supports "Ban Gay propaganda Act". 54% think, that homosexuality should be criminalized. Again.

2) Also, a question - was USA a democracy in 1950? I guess, most of you would ansver "yes". So, it's possible to be a democracy without gay-pride parades, hmm?

3) Some of you are critisizing "tyranny by majority" - but it's very inconsistant, you know. First Russia is told it must be a democracy with the people voting for Presidents and Duma, then we got constant complains that Putin is somehow rigs the elections, and now you are critisizing us fot goverment thatactually represent it's nation views and attitudes? So, basically, anything Russia does is bad as long it's not acting to the latest West's whims?

4) Somewhere here on NSforum someone mentioned an article about "resisting fascist Russsia" with a ridicolous boycott of vodka Like this article. The article in qusetion got translated in russian at InoSmi.Ru site. The reaction of the ordinary RuNet users? 1) Total support of this initative - you see, all this "russian" vodka, that you, my esteemed westerns, want to boycott is actually prosuced in Lithania by two russian emigre buissnessmen currently living in London. So, there is no way such boycott would harm Russia's economy. 2) There is no-one comment that is somehow supporting LGTB rights and activities. Quite the opposite.

5) Do you really understand, that no Western goverment would ever declare a boycott (or a war) on Russia citing "opression of gays"? Russia is important world power - live with it. No amount of your 'net whinnig or campainig would chage your goverment's foreign politics regarding Russia.

[Regnum Dominae]

And now for something completly different (c)

Oh great and wise Westerners, may I, just a common Russian member of intelligencia (so I got branded "liberal" and "democrat" by the other Russians despite my actual political leanings), ask you - what is your strategy on meking homosexuality more acceptable in the Russian Federation? But first, a reality chek:

1) 88% of Russians supports "Ban Gay propaganda Act". 54% think, that homosexuality should be criminalized. Again.

2) Also, a question - was USA a democracy in 1950? I guess, most of you would ansver "yes". So, it's possible to be a democracy without gay-pride parades, hmm?

3) Some of you are critisizing "tyranny by majority" - but it's very inconsistant, you know. First Russia is topld it must be a democracy with the people voting for Presidents and Dume, then we got constant complains that Putin is somehow rig the elections, and now you are critisizing us fot goverment to actually represent it's nation views and attitudes? So, basically, anything Russia does is bad as long it's not acting to the latest West whims?

4) Somewhere here on NSforum someone mentioned an article about "resisting fascist Russsia" with a ridicolous boycott of vodka Like this article. The article in qusetion got translated in russian at InoSmi.Ru site. The reaction of the ordinary RuNet users? 1) Total support of this initative - you see, all this "russian" vodka, that you, my esteemed westerns, want to boycott is actually prosuced in Lithania by two russian emigre buissnessmen currently living in London. So, there is no way such boycott would harm Russia's economy. 2) There is no-one comment that is somehow supporting LGTB rights and activities. Quite the opposite.

5) Do you really understand, that no Western goverment would ever declare a boycott (or a war) on Russia citing "opression of gays"? Russia is important world power - livr with it. No amount of your 'net whinnig or campainig would chage your goverment's foreign politics regarding Russia.

Regarding your first few points, national sovereignty is not an excuse to violate human rights and liberties, and tyranny by majority is just that - tyranny.

[Blasveck]

And now for something completly different (c)

Oh great and wise Westerners, may I, just a common Russian member of intelligencia (so I got branded "liberal" and "democrat" by the other Russians despite my actual political leanings), ask you - what is your strategy on meking homosexuality more acceptable in the Russian Federation? But first, a reality chek:

1) 88% of Russians supports "Ban Gay propaganda Act". 54% think, that homosexuality should be criminalized. Again.

2) Also, a question - was USA a democracy in 1950? I guess, most of you would ansver "yes". So, it's possible to be a democracy without gay-pride parades, hmm?

3) Some of you are critisizing "tyranny by majority" - but it's very inconsistant, you know. First Russia is topld it must be a democracy with the people voting for Presidents and Dume, then we got constant complains that Putin is somehow rig the elections, and now you are critisizing us fot goverment to actually represent it's nation views and attitudes? So, basically, anything Russia does is bad as long it's not acting to the latest West whims?

4) Somewhere here on NSforum someone mentioned an article about "resisting fascist Russsia" with a ridicolous boycott of vodka Like this article. The article in qusetion got translated in russian at InoSmi.Ru site. The reaction of the ordinary RuNet users? 1) Total support of this initative - you see, all this "russian" vodka, that you, my esteemed westerns, want to boycott is actually prosuced in Lithania by two russian emigre buissnessmen currently living in London. So, there is no way such boycott would harm Russia's economy. 2) There is no-one comment that is somehow supporting LGTB rights and activities. Quite the opposite.

5) Do you really understand, that no Western goverment would ever declare a boycott (or a war) on Russia citing "opression of gays"? Russia is important world power - livr with it. No amount of your 'net whinnig or campainig would chage your goverment's foreign politics regarding Russia.

Again, if 88% of the people vote to make slavery legal, does that make it okay?

Hint: It doesn't.

[Shofercia]

And now for something completly different (c)

Oh great and wise Westerners, may I, just a common Russian member of intelligencia (so I got branded "liberal" and "democrat" by the other Russians despite my actual political leanings), ask you - what is your strategy on meking homosexuality more acceptable in the Russian Federation? But first, a reality chek:

1) 88% of Russians supports "Ban Gay propaganda Act". 54% think, that homosexuality should be criminalized. Again.

2) Also, a question - was USA a democracy in 1950? I guess, most of you would ansver "yes". So, it's possible to be a democracy without gay-pride parades, hmm?

3) Some of you are critisizing "tyranny by majority" - but it's very inconsistant, you know. First Russia is topld it must be a democracy with the people voting for Presidents and Dume, then we got constant complains that Putin is somehow rig the elections, and now you are critisizing us fot goverment to actually represent it's nation views and attitudes? So, basically, anything Russia does is bad as long it's not acting to the latest West whims?

4) Somewhere here on NSforum someone mentioned an article about "resisting fascist Russsia" with a ridicolous boycott of vodka Like this article. The article in qusetion got translated in russian at InoSmi.Ru site. The reaction of the ordinary RuNet users? 1) Total support of this initative - you see, all this "russian" vodka, that you, my esteemed westerns, want to boycott is actually prosuced in Lithania by two russian emigre buissnessmen currently living in London. So, there is no way such boycott would harm Russia's economy. 2) There is no-one comment that is somehow supporting LGTB rights and activities. Quite the opposite.

5) Do you really understand, that no Western goverment would ever declare a boycott (or a war) on Russia citing "opression of gays"? Russia is important world power - livr with it. No amount of your 'net whinnig or campainig would chage your goverment's foreign politics regarding Russia.

Regarding your first few points, national sovereignty is not an excuse to violate human rights and liberties, and tyranny by majority is just that - tyranny.

Your right RD, and Gay Rights shouldn't be persecuted in Russia. English isn't Lyt's first language, so he might come off as boorish, but what I think he's saying, is "how are you going to enforce Gay Rights in Russia?" Remember that you have to change Societal Attitudes; the Government's Protection isn't enough. The reason that the Reconstruction Failed, while the Civil Rights Movement Succeeded, is Societal Attitudes. So the question is, how do you change society's attitudes on the issue. And for this, I think one has to ask the rank and file members of LGBTs in Russia, not just the leaders who want to flash their face in all the cameras.

Russian gay rights activists are themselves deeply conflicted and divided about what to do next. Some, particularly those that get the most attention in the West, want to focus on holding large public demonstrations of gay pride. Others think that Russian gays should adopt a more cautious stance that is based on coming out to family and close friends and then gradually broadening out from there. The point is that Russia’s gays are not united in lockstep behind a particular issue, strategy, or goal, but are people with all of the messiness, bickering, and spontaneity that that entails. That might sound rather obvious or banal, but in discussions about the ban on “gay propaganda” there is an unfortunate tendency to lump Russia’s gays together into some homogeneous and undifferentiated mass...

The thing is, the Rally Thing isn't working.

homosexuality has grown less popular over time. Russians don’t just disapprove of homosexuality, they increasingly disprove of it.

Now you know me, you know that I wouldn't quote an anti-Russian Article unless I agreed with most of it. Face it, the current methodology isn't working. Flashy parades and scandalous arrests aren't getting the point across. Yes, your cause is just, but the parades and arrests aren't helping. I am NOT criticizing the cause. I AM criticizing the tactics. Come up with a new tactic, or lose. There is another solution available: Russian gays should adopt a more cautious stance that is based on coming out to family and close friends and then gradually broadening out from there. Use it, before it's too late, because, after reading the anti-Gay law, I understood just how fucking ridiculous it was. Not only are the Gays losing, they're losing battles they shouldn't be. Change the damn tactics; this isn't an issue where I want to be the one to say told you so! Again, I'm not criticizing the cause. I am criticizing the tactics, and even then, I'm doing so because they're NOT working.

[Rhodesi]

And now for something completly different (c)

Oh great and wise Westerners, may I, just a common Russian member of intelligencia (so I got branded "liberal" and "democrat" by the other Russians despite my actual political leanings), ask you - what is your strategy on making the homosexuality more acceptable in the Russian Federation? But first, a reality check:

1) 88% of Russians supports "Ban Gay propaganda Act". 54% think, that homosexuality should be criminalized. Again.

2) Also, a question - was USA a democracy in 1950? I guess, most of you would ansver "yes". So, it's possible to be a democracy without gay-pride parades, hmm?

3) Some of you are critisizing "tyranny by majority" - but it's very inconsistant, you know. First Russia is told it must be a democracy with the people voting for Presidents and Duma, then we got constant complains that Putin is somehow rigs the elections, and now you are critisizing us fot goverment thatactually represent it's nation views and attitudes? So, basically, anything Russia does is bad as long it's not acting to the latest West's whims?

4) Somewhere here on NSforum someone mentioned an article about "resisting fascist Russsia" with a ridicolous boycott of vodka Like this article. The article in qusetion got translated in russian at InoSmi.Ru site. The reaction of the ordinary RuNet users? 1) Total support of this initative - you see, all this "russian" vodka, that you, my esteemed westerns, want to boycott is actually prosuced in Lithania by two russian emigre buissnessmen currently living in London. So, there is no way such boycott would harm Russia's economy. 2) There is no-one comment that is somehow supporting LGTB rights and activities. Quite the opposite.

5) Do you really understand, that no Western goverment would ever declare a boycott (or a war) on Russia citing "opression of gays"? Russia is important world power - live with it. No amount of your 'net whinnig or campainig would chage your goverment's foreign politics regarding Russia.

You sir... are a legend. Do you mind if I add the bolded quote in my sig.

[Scholencia]

There is no much to debate here, the people from Holland violated Russian law and therefore they have become what they wanted; just like the police in the US would arrest somebody who is smoking in places where is not allowed. I bet nobody would open a thread about violating of human right of smokers and also nobody would say that US is a tyranical state and that Obama is a dictator. If somebody dont like countries where gay marriages are allowed than nobody is forcing them to go there; gay marriages are not human rights anyway.

Yes they are - read the UDHR.

The European court for human rights in Strasbourg is a more important institution.
http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/standardsetti ... France.pdf

There is no much to debate here, the people from Holland violated Russian law and therefore they have become what they wanted; just like the police in the US would arrest somebody who is smoking in places where is not allowed. I bet nobody would open a thread about violating of human right of smokers

LGBT people are not like smokers. You're like Rick Perry, who compared alcoholism to homosexuality. http://swampland.time.com/2011/08/24/perry-compared-homosexuality-to-alcoholism-in-2008-book/ Please don't pull a Perry on us.

I am not comparing the gays with smokers, only the violating of laws in America with laws in Russia. It is a fact that nobody would call Obama a dictator if he for example send some Russian citizen to jail just because he drank votka in places where is not allowed.

[Australasia]

Yes they are - read the UDHR.

The European court for human rights in Strasbourg is a more important institution.
http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/standardsetti ... France.pdf

LGBT people are not like smokers. You're like Rick Perry, who compared alcoholism to homosexuality. http://swampland.time.com/2011/08/24/perry-compared-homosexuality-to-alcoholism-in-2008-book/ Please don't pull a Perry on us.

I am not comparing the gays with smokers, only the violating of laws in America with laws in Russia. It is a fact that nobody would call Obama a dictator if he for example send some Russian citizen to jail just because he drank votka in places where is not allowed.

Here you are: http://www.hrw.org/news/2010/06/29/euro ... x-marriage
Read it and weep!

Basically, the European Court of Human Rights will rule in favor of a continent-wide right to marriage equality once consensus develops. I.e. probably once the major EU powers are onboard (now with almost all the Western European countries onboard, including most importantly the UK and France, it will probably only take Germany or so to seal the deal).

Also, human rights are inherent in every human being regardless of where they are, the United Nations (which has the power to determine what are human rights on a global level) says that gay rights are human rights. End of story.

The world will leave homophobes like you behind, and step firmly into the 21st century, no matter what; this is the story of history.

[Urmanian]

The current Russian leadership cannot even do clerical fascism right. I am not sure whether I should laugh or cry - on the one hand as a Russian LGBT citizen (yes Shofercia and Lyttenburg, I am writing this from Saint-Petersburg right now and am not even paid a penny by the CIA) I should be genuinely worried for my well-being (Russian law enforcement is well-known for liberally interpreting laws, after all), on the other hand the latest slew of idiotic socially authoritarian and anti-Western laws paint the Russian government so inept, petty and infirm to me it just makes me feel a mix of disgust and pity for it.

It is not about Czar Putin's own homophobia though. It's a populist step aimed to placate the socially authoritarian, West-hating and bigoted Russian majority at the expense of a weak and comparatively voiceless minority already mostly bullied into submission by the majority operating both on prehistoric religious bigotry and prison morals (Russian homophobia as it appears to me largely takes root in the Soviet and later Russian prison tradition of taking weaker and lower-ranked inmates as sex slaves or "roosters" who were not considered people by the criminal "authorities" and the derivative prejudice against the receiving part of the homosexual act as a "rooster" and as such a lesser creature, more than in religious bigotry even); as well as a major nod to the Orthodox Church, being as Putin has been taking a full speed ahead towards clericalism, theocracy and clerical fascism in the latter years of his rule, which is again a fully populist step.

Sad as it is, the majority of Russian people are deeply homophobic and "I have nothing against gays, but those fags should just have ass-sex alone in a dark basement without making NORMAL PEOPLE watch and know this filth!" is the most tolerant and liberal viewpoint I have heard among my, otherwise fairly liberal, intelligent and learned, "russian middle-class intelligentsia" peers (one of them had most likely changed his opinions after I came out to him and engaged in said filth with him, but that is an entirely different story...though Lyttenburg, you were asking how should we make homosexuality more acceptable in the Russian Federation? Here you have the answer - more gay sex for the gay sex god! ).

Just a random rant, moving on...

[Scholencia]

The world will leave homophobes like you behind, and step firmly into the 21st century, no matter what; this is the story of history.

You article is from 2010 and it should happen by now, the case debouise vs france is from 2011, so try again. Besides, in some EU countries gay prides are not allowed. The world is in majority against gay marriages, you cannot force anti-democratic measures if the majority dont want it.

...

Since you are from Russia. May I ask you, is Putin really so popular among Russians as some what to present it?

[Australasia]

The world will leave homophobes like you behind, and step firmly into the 21st century, no matter what; this is the story of history.

You article is from 2010 and it should happen by now, so try again. Besides, in some EU countries gay prides are not allowed. The world is in majority against gay marriages, you cannot force anti-democratic measures if the majority dont want it.

...

Since you are from Russia. May I ask you, is Putin really so popular among Russians as some what to present it?

Ahem, you do realize it won't be instant, we're still waiting on Germany (which should come soon). You're wrong again by the way, every EU country has gay rights parades - it is required by EU law.
Funny sort of thing again, you do realize the world is changing for the better each and every day? Now, the vast majority of people in nearly every developed country in the world favor legal recognition for gay marriage - this is democracy in action, where people take educated and informed stands, and their representatives eventually follow through with what the people want.
Also, last time I checked, the world's political representation, the United Nations, had consistently voted in favor of gay rights as part of human rights.

It seems that the homophobes are panicking now that the world is leaving them behind and firmly stepping into the 21st century.

[Urmanian]

Since you are from Russia. May I ask you, is Putin really so popular among Russians as some what to present it?

Yes, he is. Even as a person so radically opposed to the Russian government I have no delusions as to Putin's real popularity and do not make excuses about faked elections (fraud does take place, do not get me wrong, but Putin wins elections not only because of them). His populist policies and the questionable economic growth as compared to the 90's have succeeded in making him very popular and that is, however sad, a solid fact.

[Australasia]

Since you are from Russia. May I ask you, is Putin really so popular among Russians as some what to present it?

Yes, he is. Even as a person so radically opposed to the Russian government I have no delusions as to Putin's real popularity and do not make excuses about faked elections (fraud does take place, do not get me wrong, but Putin wins elections not only because of them). His populist policies and the questionable economic growth as compared to the 90's have succeeded in making him very popular and that is, however sad, a solid fact.

No surprise when the state media, and well, state everything, is used for Putinist propaganda, and any opposition leader who starts to become even slightly threatening to the tyrant is accused of some false charge and tossed in jail after a kangaroo trail.

I feel sorry for thinking and sane people in Russia.

[Scholencia]

Since you are from Russia. May I ask you, is Putin really so popular among Russians as some what to present it?

Yes, he is. Even as a person so radically opposed to the Russian government I have no delusions as to Putin's real popularity and do not make excuses about faked elections (fraud does take place, do not get me wrong, but Putin wins elections not only because of them). His populist policies and the questionable economic growth as compared to the 90's have succeeded in making him very popular and that is, however sad, a solid fact.

Interesting, But you also admit he is a more better choice than the achoholic Yeltsin? I mean, the guy was a traitor and destroyed Russian economy.

Ahem, you do realize it won't be instant, we're still waiting on Germany (which should come soon). You're wrong again by the way, every EU country has gay rights parades - it is required by EU law..

source. In bulgaria and Romania they always have problems with the organisation that they had to cancel it many times.

Funny sort of thing again, you do realize the world is changing for the better each and every day?

Yes, I know. I never deny that.

Now, the vast majority of people in nearly every developed country in the world favor legal recognition for gay marriage - this is democracy in action, where people take educated and informed stands, and their representatives eventually follow through with what the people want.

If the majority of population dont want gay prides than that is not democracy it is a tyranny of a minority. There were many problems with guy prides in Eastern Europe since they have been seen as something forced. If you really want to improve the conditions of the guys you should change your tacticts. Many gay prides caused prety damage.

When you first solve the image of the gays than we could go to the other step - gay marriages. Until that, they are not a human right.

Also, last time I checked, the world's political representation, the United Nations, had consistently voted in favor of gay rights as part of human rights.

Source. Last time I checked the European court in Strasbourg said something different.

It seems that the homophobes are panicking now that the world is leaving them behind and firmly stepping into the 21st century.

You know, shizo can be cured.

[Urmanian]

Interesting, But you also admit he is a more better choice than the achoholic Yeltsin? I mean, the guy was a traitor and destroyed Russian economy.

I like neither really. I approve of Yeltsin's role in dismantling the Soviet system and trying to establish democracy and free markets, however his role from 1993 onward was negative; he crushed the fledgling Russian parliamentarism and then basically retired from politics, making way for all sorts of corruption and abuse. And he was no traitor, just an opportunistic, populist Soviet functionary who just went with the wind and was a faithful communist right until the Perestroika. If he didn't ride the democratic sentiments and was say, elected as the General Secretary of the Soviet Union, he would push a dictatorial communist line just as well as he did a free market one.

However, I find Putin's clerical fascism even worse and more toxic, than Yeltsin's idleness and connivance of corrupters. At least in the 90's there was a semblance of free markets, democracy, a functional multi-party parliament; to not speak anything about such freedoms as of speech, assembly and political activity.

[Australasia]

[snip]

Again, it would be nice if you read up on the facts before saying something. Everything which is stated has sources only a google search away (and besides, most of it is self-evident).

So:

1. EU law. Read it. Seriously.
2. Good
3. Human rights are inherent to every human being no matter where they are. And once again, I point you to the overwhelming opinion of people in the world's educated and developed countries.
4. EUCHR's president has stated they are awaiting consensus (which is very soon now that almost all the major EU powers have passed legislation to recognize gay marriage; it is just Germany now). As for the United Nations. Seriously. Google it. But here, since you are too lazy: http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europ ... index.html
5. Panicked now that the world is leaving homophobes behind eh?

[Lyttenburgh]

2Urmanian

It's always a pleasure to meet a fellow countryman, so I must say "здрасьте" despite our political and social differencies!

1)

(yes Shofercia and Lyttenburg, I am writing this from Saint-Petersburg right now and am not even paid a penny by the CIA)

Ой-вэй! Таки возьмите свои гроши, чьто вам задолджал Госдеп и не продолжайти эти манцы!

2)

on the other hand the latest slew of idiotic socially authoritarian and anti-Western laws paint the Russian government so inept, petty and infirm to me it just makes me feel a mix of disgust and pity for it.

Well, first of all:
a) These "slew" of "blah-blah anti western" laws didnt paint Russian goverment as inept, petty and infirm to the vast majority of Russians
b)

It is not about Czar Putin's own homophobia though. It's a populist step aimed to placate the socially authoritarian, West-hating and bigoted Russian majority at the expense of a weak and comparatively voiceless minority already mostly bullied into submission by the majority operating both on prehistoric religious bigotry and prison morals (Russian homophobia as it appears to me largely takes root in the Soviet and later Russian prison tradition of taking weaker and lower-ranked inmates as sex slaves or "roosters" who were not considered people by the criminal "authorities" and the derivative prejudice against the receiving part of the homosexual act as a "rooster" and as such a lesser creature, more than in religious bigotry even); as well as a major nod to the Orthodox Church, being as Putin has been taking a full speed ahead towards clericalism, theocracy and clerical fascism in the latter years of his rule, which is again a fully populist step.

Now wait a minute! The Russians sentiments toward the west is totally justified - ask anyone who surviewed (literally!) th 90' - that's the First. I totally agree with you, that fighting with LGTB community for the Putin is something below his dignity - but it's not Us who started this fightm you see. It's StateDep using LGTB rights abuse as an exquse to intervene russian politics - not really caring about russians both gay or straight. That's the Second. I've never in my life voted for Putin or his party of "thiefs and crooks". That's the Third.

Also - the homosexuality is unacceptable not only by the "prison culture influnced russkies." When I was in Army, I mentioned homosexuality to two Kalmykians serving with me in the same unit. Ypou, know, that kalmukians who are generelly nice people, buddhists, whose president Kirsan Ilyumzhinov was avid fan of chess (and extrterestialls...). Their attitude? Negative - their tribe elders (well, this even this 2 guys) would kill a fellow homosexual kalmyk. What an irony - the only thing that prevents them from doing it is "fascist Putinist police state"!

And I just cant cite Caucasian people (like Degestani, Azeri, Chechens and etc) attitudu towar homosexualism - it's too politically incorrect!

3)

Sad as it is, the majority of Russian people are deeply homophobic and "I have nothing against gays, but those fags should just have ass-sex alone in a dark basement without making NORMAL PEOPLE watch and know this filth!" is the most tolerant and liberal viewpoint I have heard among my, otherwise fairly liberal, intelligent and learned, "russian middle-class intelligentsia" peers

Well, that's pretty much true. But your way to improve things is just ... not very effective. I met only 1.5 gays during my whole life. First - an english language teacher at my school (at that time I didn't know what such a simple word as "camp" mean i n relation to, you know...) and one in 'Net, helping me translate an article from the english into Russian. The last one in question was institutionslized in 80s in the mentall clinic. I have nothing against both of them - they were fine people. But do you understand, that "In Your Face!" tactic is not working in Russia?

4) Also, by the way about democracy.

Well, Egypt, now "freed" frpm the "ruthless dictatorship" is turning totally democratic. Like, electing Muslim Brotherhood (and not Western puppet like El Baradey) president and persecuting Kopts. Yay! Way to go - "drmpcracy"!

[Urmanian]

a) These "slew" of "blah-blah anti western" laws didnt paint Russian goverment as inept, petty and infirm to the vast majority of Russians

No, but they did to me. I just stated my personal outlook on the situation. The average Russian would eat any sort of anti-gay law as upholding Sacred Russian Tradition, even ones as half-assed, inept and cowardly as the ones we have now.

Now wait a minute! The Russians sentiments toward the west is totally justified - ask anyone who surviewed (literally!) th 90' - that's the First.

Me and my family have survived the 90's and we like the West just fine. Of course, personal evidence is worth jack. Russians have lots of reasons, legitimate and not, to dislike the West, but that doesn't mean that doing everything just to spite and antagonize the West - oppressing several million of your people, no less, and victimizing children, just to spite the West like some sort of a kindergartener going 'neener-neener'! - is a wise state policy, especially when Russia has much less of a throwing weight on the world stage than it used to have, and, like it or not, is largely dependant on the Western community.

I totally agree with you, that fighting with LGTB community for the Putin is something below his dignity - but it's not Us who started this fightm you see. It's StateDep using LGTB rights abuse as an exquse to intervene russian politics - not really caring about russians both gay or straight. That's the Second.

So my bit about the CIA was not totally unjustified. The people on this forum however would probably like some solid proof on DoS intervention on LGBT rights abuses. Besides, where is the logic? DoS used LGBT rights abuses, so we ought to take those abuses further...?

I've never in my life voted for Putin or his party of "thiefs and crooks". That's the Third.

Just out of curiosity, who do you vote for?

Also - the homosexuality is unacceptable not only by the "prison culture influnced russkies." When I was in Army, I mentioned homosexuality to two Kalmykians serving with me in the same unit. Ypou, know, that kalmukians who are generelly nice people, buddhists, whose president Kirsan Ilyumzhinov was avid fan of chess (and extrterestialls...). Their attitude? Negative - their tribe elders (well, this even this 2 guys) would kill a fellow homosexual kalmyk. What an irony - the only thing that prevents them from doing it is "fascist Putinist police state"!

There are different sorts of social reaction and conservatism, yes, especially among the less urbanized and generally developed peoples. However prison culture is, as I see it, a large contributor to homophobia among the 81% ethnic Russians in the RF; however by no means the only contributor.

Well, that's pretty much true. But your way to improve things is just ... not very effective. I met only 1.5 gays during my whole life. First - an english language teacher at my school (at that time I didn't know what such a simple word as "camp" mean i n relation to, you know...) and one in 'Net, helping me translate an article from the english into Russian. The last one in question was institutionslized in 80s in the mentall clinic. I have nothing against both of them - they were fine people. But do you understand, that "In Your Face!" tactic is not working in Russia?

"In your face" tactic worked in the US of the 60's, which was not much better than Russia in the homophobia regard. Besides, what other options are there? Ликвидация безграмотности and peaceful education and agitation are right out of the window now. Could you abstract from your social and political views for a moment, and suggest what course could the Russian LGBT movement take?

4) Also, by the way about democracy.

Well, Egypt, now "freed" frpm the "ruthless dictatorship" is turning totally democratic. Like, electing Muslim Brotherhood (and not Western puppet like El Baradey) president and persecuting Kopts. Yay! Way to go - "drmpcracy"!

В огороде бузина, а в Киеве дядька.

[Lyttenburgh]

Me and my family have survived the 90's and we like the West just fine.

Oh, please just don't get me started! My uncle (who was a microbiologist in the "closed city" Institute) had to sell potatoes in the late 90s and work as pests' eradicator's (you know, one of the guys in the full chemical suits? with bacpack full of chemicals?) just that my elder cousin Stanislaw would study in the Tymirjazevscaya medidicen academy? My grandfather was a a school's headmaster - he had to work as warehouse keeper (cторож)!

oppressing several million of your people, no less

Oh, give me a break!!There are hardly several thousands!

and, like it or not, is largely dependant on the Western community.

Actually, No. It's the West what are dependants on Russia in dealing with countries which, uou know, are beside Its digninity.

Just out of curiosity, who do you vote for?

A Just Russia (Справедливая Россия, ЕсЕры). 'Couse my aunt is a good frian with their Duma fraction leader's daughtrer - both are quite active in ArchNadzor - an organization, devoted in preserving Moscow's architectuall legacy. Just one stupid question: did StaeDep\Western "Watchdog organisation" ever adressed a trully horrible practise of the elimination of the russian architectual lagacy in Moscow? No!

especially among the less urbanized and generally developed peoples

Oh, so you are just going to degrade a Kalmykians - well, anyway, they didn't have a large lobby in the Stats anyway. An accepted racism, huh?

In your face" tactic worked in the US of the 60's, which was not much better than Russia in the homophobia regard. Besides, what other options are there? Ликвидация безграмотности and peaceful education and agitation are right out of the window now. Could you abstract from your social and political views for a moment, and suggest what course could the Russian LGBT movement take?

Do you understand, that in the 90's we were basically told - "accept the sexual revolution of the West - or Else!" So now, there is a naturall backlash at everyything the West "persuaded" Russia to adopt. There were nothing like Stonewall in Russia - is it so surprising, that there is no homegrown LGTB culture?

[Israel State]

They deserved to be arrested.

[The balkens]

They deserved to be arrested.

Neat........

[Regnum Dominae]

They deserved to be arrested.

Why?

[The balkens]

They deserved to be arrested.

Why?

Because the Bible/Torah said so, rendering any argument for equality invalid.

How does the Netherlands feel about this?