Russia - Gay Rights - Sochi Olympics Megathread

[Liriena]

As I said before, human rights are not a popularity contest.

And, yes, they are worth as much as the paper it has been written on.

Nope. I suggest you stop lying.

[Free Tristania]

And, yes, they are worth as much as the paper it has been written on.

^Unreasonable cynicism. Human rights are not a national law, they are a social law, and it is a breach of said social law to discriminate based on a fact of life that can't be helped.

Not unreasonable cynicism. Fact. Drag a country before a court of law for violating your international law and see what happens ?
That's right: nothing. Deal with it.

[Liriena]

Not how human rights work.

Human rights, as an international framework, are perfectly meaningless. It's not nice to say that but the cold, hard truth and I recommend you people to deal with it.

Stop lying.

[Urmanian]

Suddenly, Russia is critisized for it's anti-gay propaganda bill. Wy suddenly? Becouse Mr. Putin signed it in late June - and only in early August Western pundits spun tis story. Which is "totally coincedential" (tm) with the fact, that at that time a) Ed. Snowden recived political asylum in Russia b) Russia didn't back off it's support for the Syrian leader Assad. c) The knowledge, that american secret services spied not only on the citizens of the USA (In the name of security and democracy. of course!), but also foreign countries and international organizitions (like UN).

The moral of this fable? Fix your backyard first - than critisize Russia. Do you know, what Russia relly needs? To quote te great Russian Prime Minister Stolypin - "20 years of peace, both internal and external".

Yes, the US has its problems, but we are FAR better than Russia on the issue of LGBT rights.

"Armenian radio receives a call from the United States:

- Can a simple Soviet engineer buy a car on their salary?

The Armenian radio responds:

- Well, and you are lynching black people!"

[Free Tristania]

And, yes, they are worth as much as the paper it has been written on.

Nope. I suggest you stop lying.

O.K.. let's see how valuable international law is in the West, shall we ? What do we have ? We have PRISM, we have detention without trial, we have Guantanamo Bay, we have surveillance all over the place. Do I need to go on ?

[Virana]

охтыжёбанныйпездец какменякалятэти темыпрошпагоглатателей и шампуротыкателей!

Homosexuality is illegal in 76 countries among the world. In Afganistan (a Western-occupaied failed-state) it's no longer a death penalty offence - just a long imprisoment term (ahhh, progress!). In Bangladesh it's up to life imprisoment. In Jamaica - 10 years in prison. In Islamic Republic of Iran (surprise-surpsise!) - death penalty. In Nigeria - death penalty for men or flogging and long prison term for women. In Quatar - either 7 year term for foreigners (non-muslims), or death penalty fo muslims. Finally. America's Arab World's best buddy - Saudi Arabia - have a) 100 whip strokes or b) Stoning to death for men (for single and married men respectadly) aaaaand c) stonong to death for any non muslim. Hey, don't belive me - google it! (Or read Buuzpost article).

Well, some of us know, that ol adage, that "all animals are equal - but some are more equal than others!"

Suddenly, Russia is critisized for it's anti-gay propaganda bill. Wy suddenly? Becouse Mr. Putin signed it in late June - and only in early August Western pundits spun tis story. Which is "totally coincedential" (tm) with the fact, that at that time a) Ed. Snowden recived political asylum in Russia b) Russia didn't back off it's support for the Syrian leader Assad. c) The knowledge, that american secret services spied not only on the citizens of the USA (In the name of security and democracy. of course!), but also foreign countries and international organizitions (like UN).

The moral of this fable? Fix your backyard first - than critisize Russia. Do you know, what Russia relly needs? To quote te great Russian Prime Minister Stolypin - "20 years of peace, both internal and external".

Putin (or his advisers) is actually very shrewd politician - by the time the Sochi Olimpics begin, pretty muc everyone would forget about all this "outrage" and calls for sanctions.

Nope.

You responded to an entirely relevant and, in fact, very strong argument by feebly saying "Nope" in a larger-than-normal font.

Way to prove your point, bro. That's top-level debating right there.

[Blekksprutia]

^Unreasonable cynicism. Human rights are not a national law, they are a social law, and it is a breach of said social law to discriminate based on a fact of life that can't be helped.

Not unreasonable cynicism. Fact. Drag a country before a court of law for violating your international law and see what happens ?
That's right: nothing. Deal with it.

Oh, my god. You're just not getting it, are you?
I am not speaking of national law. I am speaking of the primal, basic law that it is illogical to discriminate based on something that can't be helped. STOP SPLITTING HAIRS. STOP TAKING MY WORDS AND TWISTING THEM TO MAKE THEM COMPLY TO YOUR ARGUMENTS. It's counterproductive.

[Liriena]

Fact. Drag a country before a court of law for violating your international law and see what happens ?
That's right: nothing. Deal with it.

I said STOP LYING.

[Coccygia]

All the crap that goes on in Putin's Russia, and everybody gets bent out of shape over gay rights? Way to go, "progressives". Sort of reminds a bit me how everybody got upset about the Taliban blowing up Buddha statues, while they were holding mass executions every week in the Kabul football stadium.

[Liriena]

Nope. I suggest you stop lying.

O.K.. let's see how valuable international law is in the West, shall we ? What do we have ? We have PRISM, we have detention without trial, we have Guantanamo Bay, we have surveillance all over the place. Do I need to go on ?

Since none of those cases have reached the International Court of Justice yet, I fail to see how your point is in any way proven.

[Free Tristania]

Not unreasonable cynicism. Fact. Drag a country before a court of law for violating your international law and see what happens ?
That's right: nothing. Deal with it.

Oh, my god. You're just not getting it, are you?
I am not speaking of national law. I am speaking of the primal, basic law that it is illogical to discriminate based on something that can't be helped. STOP SPLITTING HAIRS. STOP TAKING MY WORDS AND TWISTING THEM TO MAKE THEM COMPLY TO YOUR ARGUMENTS. It's counterproductive.

There is no such thing as basic, primal law. Never existed. So either come up with something genuine or leave the debate. The fact remains this: you can't have it that other countries don't conform to your will and you keep on bitching about it (I will use the words as they are). That's tough for you and also tough for other countries like the U.S that try to create a diversion from the mess they have created at home and abroad by pointing at another country.

[Free Tristania]

O.K.. let's see how valuable international law is in the West, shall we ? What do we have ? We have PRISM, we have detention without trial, we have Guantanamo Bay, we have surveillance all over the place. Do I need to go on ?

Since none of those cases have reached the International Court of Justice yet, I fail to see how your point is in any way proven.

Neither has this one. There goes your point.

[Free Tristania]

All the crap that goes on in Putin's Russia, and everybody gets bent out of shape over gay rights? Way to go, "progressives". Sort of reminds a bit me how everybody got upset about the Taliban blowing up Buddha statues, while they were holding mass executions every week in the Kabul football stadium.

Yeah. Exactly.

[Free Tristania]

Fact. Drag a country before a court of law for violating your international law and see what happens ?
That's right: nothing. Deal with it.

I said STOP LYING.

And that's why no gives two shits about what they have to say.

[Blekksprutia]

Oh, my god. You're just not getting it, are you?
I am not speaking of national law. I am speaking of the primal, basic law that it is illogical to discriminate based on something that can't be helped. STOP SPLITTING HAIRS. STOP TAKING MY WORDS AND TWISTING THEM TO MAKE THEM COMPLY TO YOUR ARGUMENTS. It's counterproductive.

There is no such thing as basic, primal law. Never existed. So either come up with something genuine or leave the debate. The fact remains this: you can't have it that other countries don't conform to your will and you keep on bitching about it (I will use the words as they are). That's tough for you and also tough for other countries like the U.S that try to create a diversion from the mess they have created at home and abroad by pointing at another country.

So either come up with something genuine or leave the debate..

I could say the same of you. Easily.

[Aeken]

So theoretically, if Russia scrapped its constitution, brought it in with a new one, which allowed massacre of minorities, it would be okay because it's legal?

FT, may I have a response?

[Liriena]

Nope.

You responded to an entirely relevant and, in fact, very strong argument by feebly saying "Nope" in a larger-than-normal font.

Way to prove your point, bro. That's top-level debating right there.

There were many truthful statements in his/her/their post, but the core argument was flat out wrong. It was a tu quoque argument, claiming that other nations persecuting LGBT people invalidates any criticisms leveled at the Russian Federation's own anti-LGBT policies.

That we are currently opposing the Russian Federation's anti-LGBT policies does not mean we have never addressed anti-LGBT policies in other countries, that we do not care for said anti-LGBT policies, or that we cannot care for them.

[Regnum Dominae]

All the crap that goes on in Putin's Russia, and everybody gets bent out of shape over gay rights? Way to go, "progressives". Sort of reminds a bit me how everybody got upset about the Taliban blowing up Buddha statues, while they were holding mass executions every week in the Kabul football stadium.

This is a pretty damn big issue...

A few days ago the Russian police informed citizens that they should REPORT OPENLY LGBT NEIGHBORS TO THE POLICE. Russia has regressed back to the soviet system of "snitch-on-your-neighbors-to-the-government-for-meaningless-'crimes' ". No kidding.

[Free Tristania]

There is no such thing as basic, primal law. Never existed. So either come up with something genuine or leave the debate. The fact remains this: you can't have it that other countries don't conform to your will and you keep on bitching about it (I will use the words as they are). That's tough for you and also tough for other countries like the U.S that try to create a diversion from the mess they have created at home and abroad by pointing at another country.

So either come up with something genuine or leave the debate..

I could say the same of you. Easily.

Then you might just as well go. Because your line hasn't changed: WE ARE BETTER AND THUS WE CAN FORCE OUR IDEAS UPON OTHERS. DERP. DERP. Let me give you the real tests for international law ?

World War I. The Court of Arbritration and the The Hague Conventions were already there. Did it stop the war ? No.

World War II. The League of Nations goes right under when the biggest rogues of the lot either get kicked out (and don't care about it) or leave. Did they prevent the war ? The answer would be a resounding no.

2003: America goes to war in Iraq and pushes the UN on the side. Did the UN stop the U.S ? No. O.K so far for international law, basic law, human rights or all the other meaningless crap you come up with.

[Virana]

You responded to an entirely relevant and, in fact, very strong argument by feebly saying "Nope" in a larger-than-normal font.

Way to prove your point, bro. That's top-level debating right there.

There were many truthful statements in his/her/their post, but the core argument was flat out wrong. It was a tu quoque argument, claiming that other nations persecuting LGBT people invalidates any criticisms leveled at the Russian Federation's own anti-LGBT policies.

That we are currently opposing the Russian Federation's anti-LGBT policies does not mean we have never addressed anti-LGBT policies in other countries, that we do not care for said anti-LGBT policies, or that we cannot care for them.

I'm inclined to agree with you entirely on that point. This is a far stronger argument than "Nope".

However, it is necessary to bring attention to the issue that Russia is getting bashed far more than these other regimes, when its restrictions on LGBT are far looser than those in said countries. Whether or not that's even a relevant issue, I don't know.

[Liriena]

All the crap that goes on in Putin's Russia, and everybody gets bent out of shape over gay rights? Way to go, "progressives". Sort of reminds a bit me how everybody got upset about the Taliban blowing up Buddha statues, while they were holding mass executions every week in the Kabul football stadium.

Talk about edgy! Your post just cut my finger wide open!

That we are addressing Putin's anti-LGBT policies right now does not mean we have never addressed other human rights violations in the Russian Federation.

Nevermind the fact that the purpose of this thread is addressing said anti-LGBT policies. Other human rights violations are irrelevant, and what you perceive to be "selective outrage" on the part of Western progressivism is just as irrelevant.

I kindly ask that you take your bullshit post elsewhere.

[Free Tristania]

FT, may I have a response?

Not o.k.. the legality is irrelevant and there is nothing.. perfectly nothing that we can do about it.

[Regnum Dominae]

There were many truthful statements in his/her/their post, but the core argument was flat out wrong. It was a tu quoque argument, claiming that other nations persecuting LGBT people invalidates any criticisms leveled at the Russian Federation's own anti-LGBT policies.

That we are currently opposing the Russian Federation's anti-LGBT policies does not mean we have never addressed anti-LGBT policies in other countries, that we do not care for said anti-LGBT policies, or that we cannot care for them.

I'm inclined to agree with you entirely on that point. This is a far stronger argument than "Nope".

However, it is necessary to bring attention to the issue that Russia is getting bashed far more than these other regimes, when its restrictions on LGBT are far looser than those in said countries. Whether or not that's even a relevant issue, I don't know.

Compared to most of these other countries, Russia is bigger, has more international political influence, and is also the only one to be hosting the Olympics in the near future.

[Liriena]

Since none of those cases have reached the International Court of Justice yet, I fail to see how your point is in any way proven.

Neither has this one. There goes your point.

I fail to see how.

[Aeken]

FT, may I have a response?

Not o.k.. the legality is irrelevant and there is nothing.. perfectly nothing that we can do about it.

So you think that action shouldn't be taken if that happened?