Russia - Gay Rights - Sochi Olympics Megathread

[Urmanian]

Of course they do. Unless the constitution or the people block them from it.

1. In the Russian Federation recognition and guarantees shall be provided for the rights and freedoms of man and citizen according to the universally recognized principles and norms of international law and according to the present Constitution.

[Free Tristania]

Since when does Russia give a crap about a "piece of paper" ? Looks like you people need to get to learn Russian history. FAST.

I said nothing about a "piece of paper." Explain.

Which is what human rights are. A piece of paper because no one ever honours them unless they can use them to beat someone else around the ears for some actual or made up transgression. Note: I don't believe in international human rights. They can only be enshrined within the laws and constitution of a country.

[Scholencia]

If the media didn't talk about them that didn't mean they didn't exist. They did, they just did not leave the closet in large enough numbers to make an impact as they do now, now that people are a little bit more tolerant towards sexual minorities. Homosexual population is quite stable, had always existed and will always exist, it just appears that it "grows" since more people leave the closet and attract attention to their problems.

Well, the majority of people did not even know that they do exist, it is different from what you are talking about. They are also not masculine enough which many people from Eastern Europe makes difficult for their indetity.

[Regnum Dominae]

When being a known homosexual is "bourgeois decadence" punishable by 5 or more years of hard labor, I would imagine that most LGBT people wouldn't draw attention to their sexuality, for obvious reasons.

Well, I am speaking the truth and you can even bitch as you like, it is just the most people in Russia during the 70s where peasants and never heard for gayness. The most did not know it exist

No shit. When being openly gay is punishable by 5 years of prison labor, LGBT people will try to hide their sexuality. So most people aren't going to really be aware of it.

[Blekksprutia]

I said nothing about a "piece of paper." Explain.

Which is what human rights are. A piece of paper because no one ever honours them unless they can use them to beat someone else around the ears.

Human rights are a piece of paper? Excuse you?
Human rights are treating someone well, not punishing them because of something they can't control, not using cruel and unusual punishment, and generally an ethical state of being a nice, reasonable human being and/or group of human beings.

Human rights are not a piece of paper, I really don't know where you came up with that idea.

[Aeken]

I said nothing about a "piece of paper." Explain.

Which is what human rights are. A piece of paper because no one ever honours them unless they can use them to beat someone else around the ears for some actual or made up transgression. Note: I don't believe in international human rights. They can only be enshrined within the laws and constitution of a country.

So theoretically, if Russia scrapped its constitution, brought it in with a new one, which allowed massacre of minorities, it would be okay because it's legal?

[Lyttenburgh]

охтыжёбанныйпездец какменякалятэти темыпрошпагоглатателей и шампуротыкателей!

Homosexuality is illegal in 76 countries among the world. In Afganistan (a Western-occupied failed-state) it's no longer a death penalty offence - just a long imprisoment term (ahhh, progress!). In Bangladesh it's up to life imprisoment. In Jamaica - 10 years in prison. In Islamic Republic of Iran (surprise-surpsise!) - death penalty. In Nigeria - death penalty for men or flogging and long prison term for women. In Quatar - either 7 year term for foreigners (non-muslims), or death penalty fo muslims. Finally. America's Arab World's best buddy - Saudi Arabia - have a) 100 whip strokes or b) Stoning to death for men (for single and married men respectadly) aaaaand c) stoning to death for any non muslim. Hey, don't belive me - google it! (Or read Buzzpost article).

Well, some of us know, that ol' adage, that "all animals are equal - but some are more equal than others!"

Suddenly, Russia is critisized for it's anti-gay propaganda bill. Why suddenly? Becouse Mr. Putin signed it in late June - and only in early August Western pundits spun this story. Which is "totally coincedential" (tm) with the fact, that at that time a) Ed. Snowden recived political asylum in Russia b) Russia didn't back off it's support for the Syrian leader Assad. c) The knowledge, that american secret services spied not only on the citizens of the USA (In the name of security and democracy. of course!), but also on foreign countries and international organizitions (like UN) as well.

The morale of this fable? Fix your backyard first - then critisize Russia. Do you know, what Russia really needs? To quote the great Russian Prime Minister Stolypin - "20 years of peace, both internal and external".

Putin (or his advisers) is actually very shrewd politician - by the time the Sochi Olimpics begin, pretty much everyone would forget about all this "outrage" and calls for sanctions.

[Free Tristania]

Which is what human rights are. A piece of paper because no one ever honours them unless they can use them to beat someone else around the ears.

Human rights are a piece of paper? Excuse you?
Human rights are treating someone well, not punishing them because of something they can't control, not using cruel and unusual punishment, and generally an ethical state of being a nice, reasonable human being and/or group of human beings.

Human rights are not a piece of paper, I really don't know where you came up with that idea.

Quite simple: by not reading idealistic propaganda but by watching history and politics for what it is. It's a game, a joke. Do you really think that politicians give two shits about your rights ? Heh.. we in the "good" West .. well today I read in the papers that our own demented elderly that are in care homes do not have the right.. you hear it.. even have their nappies cleaned so they are to shit themselves and wallow in it. So you believe in that people respect your rights ? Then you're naive, my friend, very naive indeed.

[Free Tristania]

охтыжёбанныйпездец какменякалятэти темыпрошпагоглатателей и шампуротыкателей!

Homosexuality is illegal in 76 countries among the world. In Afganistan (a Western-occupaied failed-state) it's no longer a death penalty offence - just a long imprisoment term (ahhh, progress!). In Bangladesh it's up to life imprisoment. In Jamaica - 10 years in prison. In Islamic Republic of Iran (surprise-surpsise!) - death penalty. In Nigeria - death penalty for men or flogging and long prison term for women. In Quatar - either 7 year term for foreigners (non-muslims), or death penalty fo muslims. Finally. America's Arab World's best buddy - Saudi Arabia - have a) 100 whip strokes or b) Stoning to death for men (for single and married men respectadly) aaaaand c) stonong to death for any non muslim. Hey, don't belive me - google it! (Or read Buuzpost article).

Well, some of us know, that ol adage, that "all animals are equal - but some are more equal than others!"

Suddenly, Russia is critisized for it's anti-gay propaganda bill. Wy suddenly? Becouse Mr. Putin signed it in late June - and only in early August Western pundits spun tis story. Which is "totally coincedential" (tm) with the fact, that at that time a) Ed. Snowden recived political asylum in Russia b) Russia didn't back off it's support for the Syrian leader Assad. c) The knowledge, that american secret services spied not only on the citizens of the USA (In the name of security and democracy. of course!), but also foreign countries and international organizitions (like UN).

The moral of this fable? Fix your backyard first - than critisize Russia. Do you know, what Russia relly needs? To quote te great Russian Prime Minister Stolypin - "20 years of peace, both internal and external".

Putin (or his advisers) is actually very shrewd politician - by the time the Sochi Olimpics begin, pretty muc everyone would forget about all this "outrage" and calls for sanctions.

Finally.. someone that understands how the game works.

[Blekksprutia]

Human rights are a piece of paper? Excuse you?
Human rights are treating someone well, not punishing them because of something they can't control, not using cruel and unusual punishment, and generally an ethical state of being a nice, reasonable human being and/or group of human beings.

Human rights are not a piece of paper, I really don't know where you came up with that idea.

Quite simple: by not reading idealistic propaganda but by watching history and politics for what it is. It's a game, a joke. Do you really think that politicians give two shits about your rights ? Then you're naive, my friend, very naive indeed.

There is no need to swear.

So, if a politician legalized waterboarding as a penalty for speeding, you would support that because a law says it is technically not a breach of human rights?

[Scholencia]

Well, I am speaking the truth and you can even bitch as you like, it is just the most people in Russia during the 70s where peasants and never heard for gayness. The most did not know it exist

No shit. When being openly gay is punishable by 5 years of prison labor, LGBT people will try to hide their sexuality. So most people aren't going to really be aware of it.

How is this contrariy with my previous sentence?

The gays where unknown to most people, and of course they are not trusted in many countries. They are seen as sodomites.

[Free Tristania]

Quite simple: by not reading idealistic propaganda but by watching history and politics for what it is. It's a game, a joke. Do you really think that politicians give two shits about your rights ? Then you're naive, my friend, very naive indeed.

There is no need to swear.

So, if a politician legalized waterboarding as a penalty for speeding, you would support that because a law says it is technically not a breach of human rights?

It would be a violation of our Constitution so of course not. But if they would legalise waterboarding then I would reckon that we would be one step away from an armed revolution.

[Regnum Dominae]

охтыжёбанныйпездец какменякалятэти темыпрошпагоглатателей и шампуротыкателей!

Homosexuality is illegal in 76 countries among the world. In Afganistan (a Western-occupaied failed-state) it's no longer a death penalty offence - just a long imprisoment term (ahhh, progress!). In Bangladesh it's up to life imprisoment. In Jamaica - 10 years in prison. In Islamic Republic of Iran (surprise-surpsise!) - death penalty. In Nigeria - death penalty for men or flogging and long prison term for women. In Quatar - either 7 year term for foreigners (non-muslims), or death penalty fo muslims. Finally. America's Arab World's best buddy - Saudi Arabia - have a) 100 whip strokes or b) Stoning to death for men (for single and married men respectadly) aaaaand c) stonong to death for any non muslim. Hey, don't belive me - google it! (Or read Buuzpost article).

Trust me, we're not happy about those other 76 countries either. However, there is a difference: none of those countries are hosting the Olympics in the near future.

Well, some of us know, that ol adage, that "all animals are equal - but some are more equal than others!"

Since English isn't your first language, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and say that you aren't intending to call LGBT people "animals".

Suddenly, Russia is critisized for it's anti-gay propaganda bill. Wy suddenly? Becouse Mr. Putin signed it in late June - and only in early August Western pundits spun tis story. Which is "totally coincedential" (tm) with the fact, that at that time a) Ed. Snowden recived political asylum in Russia b) Russia didn't back off it's support for the Syrian leader Assad. c) The knowledge, that american secret services spied not only on the citizens of the USA (In the name of security and democracy. of course!), but also foreign countries and international organizitions (like UN).

The moral of this fable? Fix your backyard first - than critisize Russia. Do you know, what Russia relly needs? To quote te great Russian Prime Minister Stolypin - "20 years of peace, both internal and external".

Yes, the US has its problems, but we are FAR better than Russia on the issue of LGBT rights.

Putin (or his advisers) is actually very shrewd politician - by the time the Sochi Olimpics begin, pretty muc everyone would forget about all this "outrage" and calls for sanctions.

HAHAHAHAHA

No.

[Liriena]

1. Yes.
2. They are not censored at all. That you do not see anti-LGBT statements in the mainstream press often is not a product of censorship, but a product of capitalism. Right now, the majority of the developed world's public is, to some degree, pro-LGBT. Anti-LGBT statements simply don't sell as much as they used to, so private media sources do not have their pundits express anti-LGBT views, lest they face severe backslash from their viewers, readers and listeners. But anti-LGBT people do still exist in the mainstream press.
3. That's alright. But you should know that this can make it difficult to comprehend your posts and respond accordingly.

Well, let us imagine you were living in some countries where there is almost not gays, and it was relativly unknown to the most population until recently. What would you think about the gays, positive or negative?

Knowing myself? Positive, same as many ancient cultures.

[Aeken]

Which is what human rights are. A piece of paper because no one ever honours them unless they can use them to beat someone else around the ears for some actual or made up transgression. Note: I don't believe in international human rights. They can only be enshrined within the laws and constitution of a country.

So theoretically, if Russia scrapped its constitution, brought it in with a new one, which allowed massacre of minorities, it would be okay because it's legal?

[Liriena]

No one is forcing the Russians to accept or tolerate homosexuality. We only want the human rights of LGBT people to not be violated by the Russian state.

And thus you force your laws, your concepts and your views upon the Russians whose PARLIAMENT (elected by the Russian people) passed laws in line with Russian views.

As I said before, human rights are not a popularity contest.

[Blekksprutia]

There is no need to swear.

So, if a politician legalized waterboarding as a penalty for speeding, you would support that because a law says it is technically not a breach of human rights?

It would be a violation of our Constitution so of course not. But if they would legalise waterboarding then I would reckon that we would be one step away from an armed revolution.

You're just not getting the idea. Stop splitting hairs and concentrating on the smallest details of my analogy and look at the bigger point, because you're just evading the argument and it's getting obnoxious.

[Free Tristania]

And thus you force your laws, your concepts and your views upon the Russians whose PARLIAMENT (elected by the Russian people) passed laws in line with Russian views.

As I said before, human rights are not a popularity contest.

And, yes, they are worth as much as the paper it has been written on.

[Liriena]

Are you saying Russians aren't Humans?

That question entails that you haven't got a clue about Russia or Russians. Russians never gave a crap about a construct like human rights. And they probably never will. Either way: it's an internal affair and thus not your.. or my problem. So if you don't like the treatment of homosexuals in Russia don't go to Russia.

Not how human rights work.

[Free Tristania]

It would be a violation of our Constitution so of course not. But if they would legalise waterboarding then I would reckon that we would be one step away from an armed revolution.

You're just not getting the idea. Stop splitting hairs and concentrating on the smallest details of my analogy and look at the bigger point, because you're just evading the argument and it's getting obnoxious.

The devil is always in the detail. You're not going to convince me that it is good to enforce foreign laws in a foreign country out of a misplaced sense that they should be like you are. Human rights are not a pretext to invade and harass other countries and used by countries that violate them every day themselves. Guantanamo Bay, Prism.. everyone ?

[Regnum Dominae]

Are you saying Russians aren't Humans?

That question entails that you haven't got a clue about Russia or Russians. Russians never gave a crap about a construct like human rights. And they probably never will. Either way: it's an internal affair and thus not your.. or my problem. So if you don't like the treatment of homosexuals in Russia don't go to Russia.

Try telling that to the LGBT people born and raised in Russia, many of whom do not have the financial means to emigrate.

Human rights are not a popularity contest.

[Liriena]

If the media didn't talk about them that didn't mean they didn't exist. They did, they just did not leave the closet in large enough numbers to make an impact as they do now, now that people are a little bit more tolerant towards sexual minorities. Homosexual population is quite stable, had always existed and will always exist, it just appears that it "grows" since more people leave the closet and attract attention to their problems.

Well, the majority of people did not even know that they do exist, it is different from what you are talking about. They are also not masculine enough which many people from Eastern Europe makes difficult for their indetity.

Stereotypes =/= reality

[Blekksprutia]

As I said before, human rights are not a popularity contest.

And, yes, they are worth as much as the paper it has been written on.

^Unreasonable cynicism. Human rights are not a national law, they are a social law, and it is a breach of said social law to discriminate based on a fact of life that can't be helped.

[Free Tristania]

That question entails that you haven't got a clue about Russia or Russians. Russians never gave a crap about a construct like human rights. And they probably never will. Either way: it's an internal affair and thus not your.. or my problem. So if you don't like the treatment of homosexuals in Russia don't go to Russia.

Not how human rights work.

Human rights, as an international framework, are perfectly meaningless. It's not nice to say that but the cold, hard truth and I recommend you people to deal with it.

[Liriena]

охтыжёбанныйпездец какменякалятэти темыпрошпагоглатателей и шампуротыкателей!

Homosexuality is illegal in 76 countries among the world. In Afganistan (a Western-occupaied failed-state) it's no longer a death penalty offence - just a long imprisoment term (ahhh, progress!). In Bangladesh it's up to life imprisoment. In Jamaica - 10 years in prison. In Islamic Republic of Iran (surprise-surpsise!) - death penalty. In Nigeria - death penalty for men or flogging and long prison term for women. In Quatar - either 7 year term for foreigners (non-muslims), or death penalty fo muslims. Finally. America's Arab World's best buddy - Saudi Arabia - have a) 100 whip strokes or b) Stoning to death for men (for single and married men respectadly) aaaaand c) stonong to death for any non muslim. Hey, don't belive me - google it! (Or read Buuzpost article).

Well, some of us know, that ol adage, that "all animals are equal - but some are more equal than others!"

Suddenly, Russia is critisized for it's anti-gay propaganda bill. Wy suddenly? Becouse Mr. Putin signed it in late June - and only in early August Western pundits spun tis story. Which is "totally coincedential" (tm) with the fact, that at that time a) Ed. Snowden recived political asylum in Russia b) Russia didn't back off it's support for the Syrian leader Assad. c) The knowledge, that american secret services spied not only on the citizens of the USA (In the name of security and democracy. of course!), but also foreign countries and international organizitions (like UN).

The moral of this fable? Fix your backyard first - than critisize Russia. Do you know, what Russia relly needs? To quote te great Russian Prime Minister Stolypin - "20 years of peace, both internal and external".

Putin (or his advisers) is actually very shrewd politician - by the time the Sochi Olimpics begin, pretty muc everyone would forget about all this "outrage" and calls for sanctions.

Nope.