Russia - Gay Rights - Sochi Olympics Megathread

[Free Tristania]

To be honest: forcing ideas upon a population without their consent is rather fascist. Russians are not exactly liberal when it comes to homosexuality and if that's their thing it's their thing. Forcing "tolerance" upon them (by the West) with such intolerance for Russia's internal traditions and views or their political system while we here are less free then ever is rather... how should I put it ? Fascist ?

No one is forcing the Russians to accept or tolerate homosexuality. We only want the human rights of LGBT people to not be violated by the Russian state.

And thus you force your laws, your concepts and your views upon the Russians whose PARLIAMENT (elected by the Russian people) passed laws in line with Russian views.

[Exi1and]

It is insecurity, the majority of these alleged democracy or gay rights movement funded by Western government efforts to promote instability in Russia. That is why it is important that the Russian government may close some NGOs and decide which protest marches are allowed to go forward.

Source?

"Pro-democracy" activists like to spend time at the U.S. Embassy.
http://landdestroyer.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/unbelievable-russian-oppositions-confab.html

Pussy Riot are supported by various U.S. government agencies.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/russia-s-pussy-riot-stunt-supported-by-us-state-department/32395

Gay rights groups are among those exposed as foreign agents.
http://www.theguardian.com/film/2013/jun/10/russian-lgbt-film-festival-foreign-agent-laws

[Regnum Dominae]

1. Yes.
2. They are not censored at all. That you do not see anti-LGBT statements in the mainstream press often is not a product of censorship, but a product of capitalism. Right now, the majority of the developed world's public is, to some degree, pro-LGBT. Anti-LGBT statements simply don't sell as much as they used to, so private media sources do not have their pundits express anti-LGBT views, lest they face severe backslash from their viewers, readers and listeners. But anti-LGBT people do still exist in the mainstream press.
3. That's alright. But you should know that this can make it difficult to comprehend your posts and respond accordingly.

Well, let us imagine you were living in some countries where there is almost not gays, and it was relativly unknown to the most population until recently. What would you think about the gays, positive or negative?

What. the. fuck.

There is no such thing as a country without gays. Homosexuality isn't a choice.
The reason for the apparent rise in homosexuality is simply that more and more people are willing to come out of the closet due to decreasing homophobia.

[Caecuser]

Why should we care about their traditions and views of those traditions and views are homophobic?

Hmm how did Churchill put it ?

Ah yes. Today's antifascists will be tomorrow's fascists. Quite right, Winston, quite right. Should I put it even more bluntly ? Very well I will: you lot have become the very evil you fought against. Intolerant and violent.

It's evil to protest against homophobia and treating a group of people as inferior / unnatural?

No one is forcing the Russians to accept or tolerate homosexuality. We only want the human rights of LGBT people to not be violated by the Russian state.

And thus you force your laws, your concepts and your views upon the Russians whose PARLIAMENT (elected by the Russian people) passed laws in line with Russian views.

Did you miss the bit about Human Rights

[Free Tristania]

Hmm how did Churchill put it ?

Ah yes. Today's antifascists will be tomorrow's fascists. Quite right, Winston, quite right. Should I put it even more bluntly ? Very well I will: you lot have become the very evil you fought against. Intolerant and violent.

It's evil to protest against homophobia and treating a group of people as inferior / unnatural?

It is plain evil to force your ideas upon others, yes. I have seen the same attitude in regards to people that criticise for instance mass immigration: they get called Nazi's and the are psychically attacked in tactics quite reminiscent of the Sturmabteilung. Note: I am not speaking of Nazi demonstrations (eventhough.. they too are legal since they were approved by a court of law) but the direct threatening of groups and people whose ideas are different from yours.

In the Netherlands we had the RaRa that used to blow up front doors of politicians and burned down some shops of a company that traded with South Africa (1980s). Terror tactics.

[Free Tristania]

Did you miss the bit about Human Rights

And that should concern the Russians how ?

[Regnum Dominae]

No one is forcing the Russians to accept or tolerate homosexuality. We only want the human rights of LGBT people to not be violated by the Russian state.

And thus you force your laws, your concepts and your views upon the Russians whose PARLIAMENT (elected by the Russian people) passed laws in line with Russian views.

Here's the thing though - governments don't have the right to just do absolutely anything they want within their borders. Governments have obligations both to international law and to the well being of the people.

And yes, sometimes the well being of the people conflicts with the will of the people. Just because (hypothetical example) 88% of X country wants the government to execute nonwhites, doesn't mean the government should execute nonwhites.

[Caecuser]

Did you miss the bit about Human Rights

And that should concern the Russians how ?

Are you saying Russians aren't Humans?

[Scholencia]

What. the. fuck.

There is no such thing as a country without gays. Homosexuality isn't a choice.
The reason for the apparent rise in homosexuality is simply that more and more people are willing to come out of the closet due to decreasing homophobia.

With all due respect but there are such cases. In Eastern Europe suring communism the gay where a so small minoritiy that never notice them, and the media did not even speak about them. Ask every person from Poland or Slovakia with the age 50+ when is the first time he heard for the gays.

[Blekksprutia]

No one is forcing the Russians to accept or tolerate homosexuality. We only want the human rights of LGBT people to not be violated by the Russian state.

And thus you force your laws, your concepts and your views upon the Russians whose PARLIAMENT (elected by the Russian people) passed laws in line with Russian views.

Because they force their laws onto those who don't have a choice of whether to comply or not. It's like saying it's illegal to be black or have green eyes. Guess what? It can't be helped. You can't just say, "well, all righty then, I guess I'll be white!" Just like how you can't just say, "all righty then, I guess I'll be attracted to those and only those of the opposite gender!" It is therefore unfair to oppress those who can't comply with stupid, phobic, insular, bigoted views.
Good day.

[Free Tristania]

And that should concern the Russians how ?

Are you saying Russians aren't Humans?

That question entails that you haven't got a clue about Russia or Russians. Russians never gave a crap about a construct like human rights. And they probably never will. Either way: it's an internal affair and thus not your.. or my problem. So if you don't like the treatment of homosexuals in Russia don't go to Russia.

[Saint Kitten]

Religious.

Bloody typical.

This. A government shouldn't run based off personal beliefs dealing with religion

[Free Tristania]

And thus you force your laws, your concepts and your views upon the Russians whose PARLIAMENT (elected by the Russian people) passed laws in line with Russian views.

Because they force their laws onto those who don't have a choice of whether to comply or not. It's like saying it's illegal to be black or have green eyes. Guess what? It can't be helped. You can't just say, "well, all righty then, I guess I'll be white!" Just like how you can't just say, "all righty then, I guess I'll be attracted to those and only those of the opposite gender!" It is therefore unfair to oppress those who can't comply with stupid, phobic, insular, bigoted views.
Good day.

People in Russia have to comply with Russian laws... and if you can't accept that don't go to Russia. Besides: the law was voted upon by the Duma. Russia's parliament and is thus valid.

[Aeken]

Are you saying Russians aren't Humans?

That question entails that you haven't got a clue about Russia or Russians. Russians never gave a crap about a construct like human rights. And they probably never will. Either way: it's an internal affair and thus not your.. or my problem. So if you don't like the treatment of homosexuals in Russia don't go to Russia.

So you're saying that if Russia actually executes homosexuals, it doesn't matter because they don't give a shit about human rights so it's okay?

[Caecuser]

Are you saying Russians aren't Humans?

That question entails that you haven't got a clue about Russia or Russians. Russians never gave a crap about a construct like human rights. And they probably never will. Either way: it's an internal affair and thus not your.. or my problem. So if you don't like the treatment of homosexuals in Russia don't go to Russia.

The Russian government or any government does not have the right to do whatever the hell it wants to.

[Regnum Dominae]

What. the. fuck.

There is no such thing as a country without gays. Homosexuality isn't a choice.
The reason for the apparent rise in homosexuality is simply that more and more people are willing to come out of the closet due to decreasing homophobia.

With all due respect but there are such cases. In Eastern Europe suring communism the gay where a so small minoritiy that never notice them, and the media did not even speak about them. Ask every person from Poland or Slovakia with the age 50+ when is the first time he heard for the gays.

When being a known homosexual is "bourgeois decadence" punishable by 5 or more years of hard labor, I would imagine that most LGBT people wouldn't draw attention to their sexuality, for obvious reasons.

When did you choose to be straight?

[Urmanian]

With all due respect but there are such cases. In Eastern Europe suring communism the gay where a so small minoritiy that never notice them, and the media did not even speak about them. Ask every person from Poland or Slovakia with the age 50+ when is the first time he heard for the gays.

If the media didn't talk about them that didn't mean they didn't exist. They did, they just did not leave the closet in large enough numbers to make an impact as they do now, now that people are a little bit more tolerant towards sexual minorities. Homosexual population is quite stable, had always existed and will always exist, it just appears that it "grows" since more people leave the closet and attract attention to their problems.

[Free Tristania]

And thus you force your laws, your concepts and your views upon the Russians whose PARLIAMENT (elected by the Russian people) passed laws in line with Russian views.

Here's the thing though - governments don't have the right to just do absolutely anything they want within their borders. Governments have obligations both to international law and to the well being of the people.

And yes, sometimes the well being of the people conflicts with the will of the people. Just because (hypothetical example) 88% of X country wants the government to execute nonwhites, doesn't mean the government should execute nonwhites.

How brutal it may sound: international law is a dead letter, has always been and will always be. Then, how regrettably it may sound, the only things that will prevent the massacre of non-whites would be the written letter of the Constitution (which actually will be honoured more than some treaty which is a dead letter anyway), the percentage of people willing to either honour the law (and go ahead with it) and the percentage of people willing to resist.

Some realism in talking about politics would be nice. Tell me one country that actually follows international law to the letter and I will be very surprised. No one does. No one ever will.

[Blekksprutia]

Because they force their laws onto those who don't have a choice of whether to comply or not. It's like saying it's illegal to be black or have green eyes. Guess what? It can't be helped. You can't just say, "well, all righty then, I guess I'll be white!" Just like how you can't just say, "all righty then, I guess I'll be attracted to those and only those of the opposite gender!" It is therefore unfair to oppress those who can't comply with stupid, phobic, insular, bigoted views.
Good day.

People in Russia have to comply with Russian laws... and if you can't accept that don't go to Russia. Besides: the law was voted upon by the Duma. Russia's parliament and is thus valid.

Disregard the Duma. This is a matter of human rights:

No one is forcing the Russians to accept or tolerate homosexuality. We only want the human rights of LGBT people to not be violated by the Russian state.

[Free Tristania]

That question entails that you haven't got a clue about Russia or Russians. Russians never gave a crap about a construct like human rights. And they probably never will. Either way: it's an internal affair and thus not your.. or my problem. So if you don't like the treatment of homosexuals in Russia don't go to Russia.

The Russian government or any government does not have the right to do whatever the hell it wants to.

Of course they do. Unless the constitution or the people block them from it.

[Free Tristania]

People in Russia have to comply with Russian laws... and if you can't accept that don't go to Russia. Besides: the law was voted upon by the Duma. Russia's parliament and is thus valid.

Disregard the Duma. This is a matter of human rights:

No one is forcing the Russians to accept or tolerate homosexuality. We only want the human rights of LGBT people to not be violated by the Russian state.

Since when does Russia give a crap about a "piece of paper" ? Looks like you people need to get to learn Russian history. FAST.

[Regnum Dominae]

The Russian government or any government does not have the right to do whatever the hell it wants to.

Of course they do. Unless the constitution or the people block them from it.

If 88% of Germans voted for a Fourth Reich and a repeat Holocaust, would that justify a repeat holocaust? (hypothetical, of course)

[Scholencia]

When being a known homosexual is "bourgeois decadence" punishable by 5 or more years of hard labor, I would imagine that most LGBT people wouldn't draw attention to their sexuality, for obvious reasons.

Well, I am speaking the truth and you can even bitch as you like, it is just the most people in Russia during the 70s where peasants and never heard for gayness. The most did not know it exist

When did you choose to be straight?

I was born straight, gays are just deviat people just like people, I dont know let us say 6 fingers. it is not normal but they should also not be threaten bad.

[Free Tristania]

Of course they do. Unless the constitution or the people block them from it.

If 88% of Germans voted for a Fourth Reich and a repeat Holocaust, would that justify a repeat holocaust? (hypothetical, of course)

Yet again.. that's a bad comparison as the Holocaust was not an internal affair (Germany invaded most of Europe). But indeed.. here comes the painful answer: no one in 1930s gave two shits when the Jews got disenfranchised and in a lot of cases thrown out of Germany. Even the U.S turned down Jewish refugees. And here comes the thing: there is nothing that we, non-Germans, can do about it. Perfectly nothing. Until, of course, they start attacking other people and then can repeat 1939-1945.

[Blekksprutia]

Disregard the Duma. This is a matter of human rights:

Since when does Russia give a crap about a "piece of paper" ? Looks like you people need to get to learn Russian history. FAST.

I said nothing about a "piece of paper." Explain.