Urmanian wrote:It is not about Czar Putin's own homophobia though. It's a populist step aimed to placate the socially authoritarian, West-hating and bigoted Russian majority at the expense of a weak and comparatively voiceless minority already mostly bullied into submission by the majority operating both on prehistoric religious bigotry and prison morals, Russian homophobia as it appears to me largely takes root in the Soviet and later Russian prison tradition of taking weaker and lower-ranked inmates as sex slaves or "roosters" who were not considered people by the criminal "authorities" and the derivative prejudice against the receiving part of the homosexual act as a "rooster" and as such a lesser creature, more than in religious bigotry even
Oh good, you found a cause, and you're slightly wrong, so I can actually help you out, by providing education. The Russian Prison Tradition, at least the modern version, is based on the Vor v Zakone Culture, which demands unquestioning loyalty. Being raped hurts one's loyalty. So the rape thing going on isn't a part of Russian Tradition. It's a perversion of Russian Tradition, and perversions can be attacked and destroyed, even by individuals who consider themselves powerless. And let me just throw out there that I know quite a bit more about this, including the Tattoo Correlation between Prisoners and the Armed Services, Odessa Mama, Rostov Papa, etc. I could also go into Zhukov's post WWII blunder. Your ignorance, and/or confusion of Russian Tradition is sad, because if you knew about it, you'd know how to fight for LGBT rights. For instance, if you knew that Russian Tradition finds rape abhorrent, (including prison rape,) you can fight to improve the Russian Prison System, (really shouldn't be hard to do right now,) and since you claim that Homophobia stems from the Russian Prison System, improving that would reduce Homophobia quite a bit. Don't confuse tradition with system. Ever.
Urmanian wrote:Scholencia wrote:Since you are from Russia. May I ask you, is Putin really so popular among Russians as some what to present it?
Yes, he is. Even as a person so radically opposed to the Russian government I have no delusions as to Putin's real popularity and do not make excuses about faked elections (fraud does take place, do not get me wrong, but Putin wins elections not only because of them). His populist policies and the questionable economic growth as compared to the 90's have succeeded in making him very popular and that is, however sad, a solid fact.
Questionable economic growth?
Urmanian wrote:Scholencia wrote:Interesting, But you also admit he is a more better choice than the achoholic Yeltsin? I mean, the guy was a traitor and destroyed Russian economy.
I like neither really. I approve of Yeltsin's role in dismantling the Soviet system and trying to establish democracy and free markets, however his role from 1993 onward was negative; he crushed the fledgling Russian parliamentarism and then basically retired from politics, making way for all sorts of corruption and abuse. And he was no traitor, just an opportunistic, populist Soviet functionary who just went with the wind and was a faithful communist right until the Perestroika. If he didn't ride the democratic sentiments and was say, elected as the General Secretary of the Soviet Union, he would push a dictatorial communist line just as well as he did a free market one.
However, I find Putin's clerical fascism even worse and more toxic, than Yeltsin's idleness and connivance of corrupters. At least in the 90's there was a semblance of free markets, democracy, a functional multi-party parliament; to not speak anything about such freedoms as of speech, assembly and political activity.
If you are an opportunist who throws your country under the proverbial bus, for a few proverbial shekels, you are a traitor. So don't give me, someone who had to experience Yeltsin's Russia, that crap. What democracy and free markets? Ohhh, but you restricted for only two years, how convenient! That way we don't get to talk about how Yeltsin dealt with a Parliament that dared to disagree with him, (by using tanks,) or about Yeltsin's election rigging, but perhaps you can explain how a guy with less than 9 percent approval rating wins the election, hmmm? Well, bad news Urm, but Yetlsin wasn't quite the democratic leader you pretended that he was. You see, in 1991, the Soviet People voted to preserve the USSR, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Uni ... ndum,_1991, overwhelmingly so. Yeltsin, ignoring democratic votes when it no longer suited his needs, (as was his custom from 1991,) did everything he could to destroy the USSR, contrary to the Democratic Wishes of the people. He was rotten from the beginning, and his place is next to "General" Vlasov.
The fact that you approve of Yeltsin dismantling the Soviet System, even though the majority of Soviet Voters wanted to preserve it, merely shows that you too, would eagerly throw Democratic Principles under the proverbial bus when it fits your needs.
Urmanian wrote:No, but they did to me. I just stated my personal outlook on the situation. The average Russian would eat any sort of anti-gay law as upholding Sacred Russian Tradition, even ones as half-assed, inept and cowardly as the ones we have now.Lyttenburgh wrote:a) These "slew" of "blah-blah anti western" laws didnt paint Russian goverment as inept, petty and infirm to the vast majority of Russians
The Sacred Russian Tradition is going to be upheld, whether you like it or not. But I've yet to see an intelligent argument about how the Russian Tradition demands that Gays be persecuted.
Urmanian wrote:Me and my family have survived the 90's and we like the West just fine. Of course, personal evidence is worth jack. Russians have lots of reasons, legitimate and not, to dislike the West, but that doesn't mean that doing everything just to spite and antagonize the West - oppressing several million of your people, no less, and victimizing children, just to spite the West like some sort of a kindergartener going 'neener-neener'! - is a wise state policy, especially when Russia has much less of a throwing weight on the world stage than it used to have, and, like it or not, is largely dependant on the Western community.Lyttenburgh wrote:Now wait a minute! The Russians sentiments toward the west is totally justified - ask anyone who surviewed (literally!) th 90' - that's the First.
It's more of a mutual codependency, than mere Russian dependence. You need US and Russia to get other countries to play ball on combating Nuclear Proliferation.
Urmanian wrote:Lyttenburgh wrote:Well, that's pretty much true. But your way to improve things is just ... not very effective. I met only 1.5 gays during my whole life. First - an english language teacher at my school (at that time I didn't know what such a simple word as "camp" mean i n relation to, you know...) and one in 'Net, helping me translate an article from the english into Russian. The last one in question was institutionslized in 80s in the mentall clinic. I have nothing against both of them - they were fine people. But do you understand, that "In Your Face!" tactic is not working in Russia?
"In your face" tactic worked in the US of the 60's, which was not much better than Russia in the homophobia regard. Besides, what other options are there? Ликвидация безграмотности and peaceful education and agitation are right out of the window now. Could you abstract from your social and political views for a moment, and suggest what course could the Russian LGBT movement take?
The reason that certain things worked in the 1960s, as I've already mentioned in this thread, is because there was a massive shift in Societal Attitudes. In terms of the course, I'd say that you combat prison abuses, (as opposed to Prison Culture which finds rape abhorrent, as that reduces loyalty,) providing actual cultural exchange programs, instead of shooting scandalous documentaries, and slowly coming out to your family and friends.
Urmanian wrote:В огороде бузина, а в Киеве дядька.Lyttenburgh wrote:4) Also, by the way about democracy.
Well, Egypt, now "freed" frpm the "ruthless dictatorship" is turning totally democratic. Like, electing Muslim Brotherhood (and not Western puppet like El Baradey) president and persecuting Kopts. Yay! Way to go - "drmpcracy"!
Nazovi demokratiyu kotoraya pobedila v sovremennosti, a? Mozhet buyt Ukraina tovarishya Yushenko? Ili Gruziya tovarishya Sukoshvili? Nuy Livia voobshe prelest, tam chernuyh duybasyat' chernuye! A Kosovo, gde 98% Romuy ne rabotayet, tol'ko izza diskriminatsiyi? Ili mozhet buyt Latvia s Natsiskimi, ne Fashistkimi, a Natsikimi paradami? Estonia? Davai, pokazhi premer, zhduy trepetno i s neterperniyem!
