Russia - Gay Rights - Sochi Olympics Megathread

[Geilinor]

There is no much to debate here, the people from Holland violated Russian law and therefore they have become what they wanted; just like the police in the US would arrest somebody who is smoking in places where is not allowed. I bet nobody would open a thread about violating of human right of smokers and also nobody would say that US is a tyranical state and that Obama is a dictator. If somebody dont like countries where gay marriages are allowed than nobody is forcing them to go there; gay marriages are not human rights anyway.

Yes they are - read the UDHR.

This^. Marriage is a human right, regardless of gender and whom you choose to marry.

[Geilinor]

There is no much to debate here, the people from Holland violated Russian law and therefore they have become what they wanted; just like the police in the US would arrest somebody who is smoking in places where is not allowed. I bet nobody would open a thread about violating of human right of smokers

LGBT people are not like smokers. You're like Rick Perry, who compared alcoholism to homosexuality. http://swampland.time.com/2011/08/24/perry-compared-homosexuality-to-alcoholism-in-2008-book/ Please don't pull a Perry on us.

[Geilinor]

Not necessarily.

Yes, it is.

You might contend that you have the ethical duty to commit wrong acts sometimes - basically following a higher law, such as the Constitution or the ECHR, when a lower law contends with the former - , but breaking a law is wrong per se, else the social contract (I guess you should know what it is) is forfeit.

They probably chose to go to Russia as a form of protest. The Netherlands was the first country to legalize same-sex marriage, so if this becomes an international incident, I'll be happy.

[Regnum Dominae]

Not necessarily.

Yes, it is.

You might contend that you have the ethical duty to commit wrong acts sometimes - basically following a higher law, such as the Constitution or the ECHR, when a lower law contends with the former - , but breaking a law is wrong per se, else the social contract (I guess you should know what it is) is forfeit.

So breaking laws is wrong in ALL situations, no matter how bad the law?

[Geilinor]

Can someone please tell me why the government and the Orthodox Church in Russia are best buddies again?

They both support Social Rights, so they bonded over that issue. Supporting Social Rights is awesome in Russia

Social rights?

[Geilinor]

Russia, oh Russia, won't you ever be free?

Tsars to Communist regime to Putinist regime. When does democracy come along?

Not surprising that a tyrannical regime would be homophobic.

Globally speaking, democratic nations everywhere support LGBT rights while dictatorships are homophobic and backward (no surprise of course!)

When will Russia see an end to dictatorship? *Sigh*

Democracy is an alien concept in Russia. It always has been. That's the best explanation historians have been able to give. Submission to authoritarianism as part of the culture.

[Aravea]

Only in Russia...

[Regnum Dominae]

Can someone please tell me why the government and the Orthodox Church in Russia are best buddies again?

They both support Social Rights, so they bonded over that issue. Supporting Social Rights is awesome in Russia

They clearly also both support homophobia and oppressing LGBT people.

[Geilinor]

Like what? The right to discriminate people based on sexuality?

No, when Shof talks about social rights he means stuff like guaranteed income, free health care, welfare etc. Which is apparently more important than civil rights.

I'd rather be poor and free than wealthy and oppressed.

Russian healthcare is terrible. https://docs.google.com/viewer?docex=1&url=http://www.du.edu/korbel/hrhw/researchdigest/russia/health.pdf The life expectancy is only 69.

[Blasveck]

Russia, oh Russia, won't you ever be free?

Tsars to Communist regime to Putinist regime. When does democracy come along?

Not surprising that a tyrannical regime would be homophobic.

Globally speaking, democratic nations everywhere support LGBT rights while dictatorships are homophobic and backward (no surprise of course!)

When will Russia see an end to dictatorship? *Sigh*

Democracy is an alien concept in Russia. It always has been. That's the best explanation historians have been able to give. Submission to authoritarianism as part of the culture.

I've always wondered why they haven't actually had democracy.

Probably because they were one of the last nations (Except for a few today) to rid themselves of the Monarchy.

[Geilinor]

There is no much to debate here, the people from Holland violated Russian law and therefore they have become what they wanted; just like the police in the US would arrest somebody who is smoking in places where is not allowed. I bet nobody would open a thread about violating of human right of smokers and also nobody would say that US is a tyranical state and that Obama is a dictator. If somebody dont like countries where gay marriages are allowed than nobody is forcing them to go there; gay marriages are not human rights anyway.

"The people from Holland"

A Dutch person would have a field day.

[Geilinor]

Nations have the right to pass discriminatory laws, but not those that call for genocide.

Russia voluntarily gave up that right when they joined the CoE and became bound by the ECHR.

This.^ Russia doesn't have complete freedom to make their laws. Putin can't complain now.

[Shofercia]

Here's what I'm wondering, in terms of the legality of what they did: what right did they have to be in Russia?

Countries aren't required to have open borders for every single person who wants to make a documentary about this or that. It'd certainly be nice, but it ain't the law. Russians cannot enter Holland, to make a documentary on a whim. Russians have to abide by the law. Conversely, so do the Dutch, when entering Russia. So I'm wondering, what Visa did they use to enter? Were their activities covered by their Visa? Did they lie to the authorities about the reason for their visit? Lying to immigration authorities about your reason to enter the country is a crime in itself. When they held the event, did they card everyone, or was saying "I'm 18 or older" sufficient? I'm not talking about ethics or morality, but purely legal stuff, since there are posters here pretending that what they did was somehow legal. Even if the law is stupid, if you break it, you aren't abiding by the law. Ergo, you aren't law abiding.

[Grand Britannia]

[The Rich Port]

(Image)

Bro-douchin' like a boss, I see.

[Grand Britannia]

(Image)

Bro-douchin' like a boss, I see.

The man's cold and unmovable like a steel wall.

[The Rich Port]

Bro-douchin' like a boss, I see.

The man's cold and unmovable like a steel wall.

Or calcified feces.

[Shofercia]

The man's cold and unmovable like a steel wall.

Or calcified feces.

I thought that was Gorbachev... oh wait, it was!

I'm going with steel wall for Putin

[Hurdegaryp]

"The people from Holland"

A Dutch person would have a field day.

True, that.

[The Rich Port]

Or calcified feces.

I thought that was Gorbachev... oh wait, it was!

I'm going with steel wall for Putin

... Really? You're gonna bag on Gorbachev? Why don't you bag on the fat kid from school while you're at it?

At least Gorbachev isn't The Russian Situation.

[Shofercia]

I thought that was Gorbachev... oh wait, it was!

I'm going with steel wall for Putin

... Really? You're gonna bag on Gorbachev? Why don't you bag on the fat kid from school while you're at it?

Because the fat kid from school didn't have policies that led to ethnic cleansing, thousands of innocent people starving, a massive and violent break up of a huge country, and other nasty shit. Simple as that.

[Geilinor]

Here's what I'm wondering, in terms of the legality of what they did: what right did they have to be in Russia?

Countries aren't required to have open borders for every single person who wants to make a documentary about this or that. It'd certainly be nice, but it ain't the law. Russians cannot enter Holland, to make a documentary on a whim. Russians have to abide by the law. Conversely, so do the Dutch, when entering Russia. So I'm wondering, what Visa did they use to enter? Were their activities covered by their Visa? Did they lie to the authorities about the reason for their visit? Lying to immigration authorities about your reason to enter the country is a crime in itself. When they held the event, did they card everyone, or was saying "I'm 18 or older" sufficient? I'm not talking about ethics or morality, but purely legal stuff, since there are posters here pretending that what they did was somehow legal. Even if the law is stupid, if you break it, you aren't abiding by the law. Ergo, you aren't law abiding.

So now you're accusing them of crossing the border illegally?

[Warda]

No, when Shof talks about social rights he means stuff like guaranteed income, free health care, welfare etc. Which is apparently more important than civil rights.

I'd rather be poor and free than wealthy and oppressed.

Russian healthcare is terrible. https://docs.google.com/viewer?docex=1&url=http://www.du.edu/korbel/hrhw/researchdigest/russia/health.pdf The life expectancy is only 69.

qq for russiaz

[Shofercia]

Here's what I'm wondering, in terms of the legality of what they did: what right did they have to be in Russia?

Countries aren't required to have open borders for every single person who wants to make a documentary about this or that. It'd certainly be nice, but it ain't the law. Russians cannot enter Holland, to make a documentary on a whim. Russians have to abide by the law. Conversely, so do the Dutch, when entering Russia. So I'm wondering, what Visa did they use to enter? Were their activities covered by their Visa? Did they lie to the authorities about the reason for their visit? Lying to immigration authorities about your reason to enter the country is a crime in itself. When they held the event, did they card everyone, or was saying "I'm 18 or older" sufficient? I'm not talking about ethics or morality, but purely legal stuff, since there are posters here pretending that what they did was somehow legal. Even if the law is stupid, if you break it, you aren't abiding by the law. Ergo, you aren't law abiding.

So now you're accusing them of crossing the border illegally?

No, I'm just wondering if they lied to the authorities about their purpose to visit Russia. If they did, they're not law abiding. It's as simple as that.

[Geilinor]

So now you're accusing them of crossing the border illegally?

No, I'm just wondering if they lied to the authorities about their purpose to visit Russia. If they did, they're not law abiding. It's as simple as that.

There's nothing to suggest that. Does the law say LGBT people are barred from visiting Russia? I don't think it goes that far. As a member of the Council of Europe, much of Europe should be after Russia by now if that was the case.