NATION

PASSWORD

NM Supreme Court Forces Christian to Take Gay Wedding Photos

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Was it right for the NM Supreme Court to force Ms. Huguenin to photograph a gay wedding ceremony?

Yes
257
45%
No
308
55%
 
Total votes : 565

User avatar
Auralia
Senator
 
Posts: 4982
Founded: Dec 15, 2011
Ex-Nation

NM Supreme Court Forces Christian to Take Gay Wedding Photos

Postby Auralia » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:19 am

New Mexico’s highest court ruled Thursday that the owners of an Albuquerque wedding photography company violated state law when they turned away a lesbian couple who wanted to hire them to take pictures of their ceremony.

Upholding a lower-court ruling, the New Mexico Supreme Court held that the company’s refusal was an act of discrimination. They rejected the argument of the devout Christian owners of Elane Photography who claimed they had a free speech and religious right not to shoot the ceremony.

The decision comes at a time of turbulent debate over gay marriage in New Mexico, where a county clerk gained national attention this week by issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples against the advice of the attorney general (though he’s not challenging it). As Law Blog noted earlier, gay marriage hasn’t been legalized New Mexico, though there’s a dispute over whether state law prohibits it.

Under the New Mexico Human Rights Act, it’s unlawful for a public accommodation to refuse to offer its services to someone because of the person’s sexual orientation. The same law also prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, religion, color, national origin, ancestry and gender.

“When Elane Photography refused to photograph a same-sex commitment ceremony, it violated the NMHRA in the same way as if it had refused to photograph a wedding between people of different races,” the court stated in its opinion.

“Even if the services it offers are creative or expressive, Elane Photography must offer its services to customers without regard for the customers’ race, sex, sexual orientation, or other protected classification,” the court said.

Elaine Huguenin and her husband Jonathan, the owners of the company, argued that shooting the ceremony would have conflicted with their fundamental religious tenets and given the impression that they were supportive of gay marriage.

The Alliance Defending Freedom, which represented the photographers, said the decision amounted to government-enforced coercion. “This decision is a blow to our client and every American’s right to live free,” stated the group’s senior counsel, Jordan Lorence.

The case dates back to 2006 when Vanessa Willock asked the Huguenins to photograph a “commitment ceremony” that she and her partner were planning to hold in the town of Taos.

After getting turned down, the couple accused the company of discrimination in a complaint to the New Mexico Human Rights Commission. The state body found that the company engaged in sexual orientation discrimination and ordered Elane Photography to pay thousands of dollars in attorneys’ fees.

“When you open a business, you are opening your doors to all people in your community, not just the select few who share your personal beliefs,” said Louise Melling, deputy legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union, in a statement. The ACLU filed a brief in support of Ms. Willock.

In a concurring opinion Thursday, Justice Richard C. Bosson said the case “provokes reflection on what this nation is all about.” The company’s refusal, “no matter how religiously inspired, was an affront to the legal rights of that couple,” he wrote.

“All of which, I assume, is little comfort to the Huguenins, who now are compelled by law to compromise the very religious beliefs that inspire their lives,” Justice Bosson wrote. “Though the rule of law requires it, the result is sobering. It will no doubt leave a tangible mark on the Huguenins and others of similar views.”

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2013/08/22/photographers-discriminated-against-gay-couple-court-rules/


As a Catholic, I find this turn of events rather appalling. I would hate to be in a position where I have to choose between compromising my moral and religious beliefs or paying a heavy fine. Any law that would put me in that position is a bad law.

But even from a secular perspective, I have a couple of problems with this case. Shouldn't the First Amendment prohibit this, since it was essentially compelled speech? Shouldn't the New Mexico Religious Freedom Restoration Act (which forbids the government from substantially burdening freedom of religion unless it is the least restrictive means to accomplish a compelling governmental interest) prohibit this, since Ms. Willock was easily able to find another photographer?

After all, the purpose of anti-discrimination law is to ensure that minorities have access to essential services, not to browbeat everyone into compliance with the anti-discrimination norm. As I just said, Ms. Willock was easily able to find another photographer, so why did she and her partner feel it necessary to go after Ms. Huguenin?

So, NSG, what do you think?

EDIT: Here's the sequence of events that lead to the human rights complaint:

In 2006, Vanessa Willock e-mailed Elane Photography about photographing a “commitment ceremony” that she and her partner were planning. Willock said that this would be a “same-gender ceremony.” Elane Photography responded that it photographed “traditional weddings.” The Huguenins are Christians who, for religious reasons, disapprove of same-sex unions. Willock sent a second e-mail asking whether this meant that the company “does not offer photography services to same-sex couples.” Elane Photography responded that “you are correct.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-f-will-the-tangled-web-of-conflicting-rights/2012/09/14/95b787c2-fddc-11e1-b153-218509a954e1_story.html
Last edited by Auralia on Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
Catholic Commonwealth of Auralia
"Amor sequitur cognitionem."

User avatar
Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 69943
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:28 am

Should a business owner have the right to discriminate against customers?
I think that's the real question here.

User avatar
Enadail
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5799
Founded: Jun 02, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Enadail » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:34 am

Strangely, I'm torn here. While I don't think people should be allowed to discriminate, I do kind of think businesses rejecting business may be acceptable, even though I know its wrong. Strangely, I can't seem to come to a mind of it.

User avatar
Muzzak
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 7
Founded: Jul 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Muzzak » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:35 am

Shouldnt business owners have the right to serve who they want to serve?

and before anyone says, ermahgerd muzzak hates gays, no i dont, i just dont see why business owners should be forced to serve people who they dont want to.
Bezombia wrote:
Patistan wrote:laws are meant to be followed not broken


yes, but America only exists to break those laws and then run away from the international community yelling "trololololol FREEDOM lolol".

User avatar
Zottistan
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14894
Founded: Nov 26, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Zottistan » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:37 am

Genivaria wrote:Should a business owner have the right to discriminate against customers?
I think that's the real question here.

That's the question, and yes is the answer.
Ireland, BCL and LLM, Training Barrister, Cismale Bi Dude and Gym-Bro, Generally Boring Socdem Eurocuck

User avatar
Alyekra
Minister
 
Posts: 2828
Founded: May 03, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Alyekra » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:38 am

Why would you even want someone who doesn't agree with gay marriage at your gay wedding? I can't think of another explanation for these people's actions then they like to rub "Gay rights" in people faces. Another absolutely disgusting example of Tyranny.
(FOR LEGAL REASONS, THAT'S A JOKE)

65 dkp

User avatar
The TransPecos
Envoy
 
Posts: 295
Founded: May 14, 2006
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby The TransPecos » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:38 am

The court did no more than interpret the law as written. Blame the writers and passers, not the court. Another shining example of the Law of Unintended Consequences.

User avatar
Blekksprutia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5957
Founded: Mar 21, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Blekksprutia » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:39 am

A business should not have the right to discriminate against its customers. /thread
KILLUGON and BERNIE SANDERS and my moirail, ERIDEL.
Founder of Kotturheim, home to my GAY POLECATS, who are TOO FABULOUS FOR YOU.
Arg: Blekk does that. The topics of same sex marriage and the human race's fight against idiocy motivate him to write some truly impressive and glorious rants that deserve to be remembered and sigged.
Zott: I see our Blekky has discovered the joys of amphetamines.
Horus: blekky you are blekky i am horus
Rio: Blekky you are the best person on this website. Figuratively, kiss me.
Blekky is like a bunny. He looks adorable, yet he might bite you till it hurts.
Veccy: you're the worst blekky
The Balkens: Blekk does that, he has been taught by NSG's greatest practitioners of Snark to Snark combat.
Napki: Marry me, Blekk
Aeq: Blekk, you are Jesus!!!

User avatar
The Armed Republic of Dutch Coolness
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 29177
Founded: Dec 02, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby The Armed Republic of Dutch Coolness » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:41 am

Alyekra wrote:Why would you even want someone who doesn't agree with gay marriage at your gay wedding? I can't think of another explanation for these people's actions then they like to rub "Gay rights" in people faces. Another absolutely disgusting example of Tyranny.

Time to create your dream, then.
The gay-free land of freedom and love!



Oh, wait..
P2TM Mentor
TG me!
Discord available on request as well
Or join the Mentor Discord server!

Such a cool time I select, looking out my window, and that's that

The worlding of the words is AMARANTH.

User avatar
Zavea
Diplomat
 
Posts: 609
Founded: Apr 20, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Zavea » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:41 am

i see no reason why anyone (including a commercial interest) should be allowed to discriminate against others and then hide behind religious belief to get away with it. when you cut the rhetoric out of the equation it's basically saying "you should allow people to discriminate against gays/whatever if they don't like them" which is mind blowingly non-existent logic that contradicts having laws against discrimination anyway

the inherent purpose of a private business is to make a profit by selling a service to the public. so obviously, if it wants to have access to us and all of what we provide, it should be obligated to follow our laws and respect our rights.
is it pronounced zay-vee-uh or zuh-vay-uh? i can't decide

User avatar
Slafstopia
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1711
Founded: Jun 02, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Slafstopia » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:41 am

I'm torn between not forcing people to do stuff, and LGBT rights. But I'd say yes, currently, it was right.
Economic Left/Right: -7.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.50
Foreign Policy Non-Interventionist/Neo-Conservative: -9.48
Cultural Liberal/Conservative: -8.09
Socio-economic Quiz: Anarchism 100%, Marxism 92%, Democratic Socialism 92%
Economic Quiz: Ghandian 100%
Alignment: Chaotic Evil


Slavyukriy, by Ceni.
Officially, Slafstopia is Lyapzem.

User avatar
Schweizweld
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 131
Founded: Jun 25, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Schweizweld » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:42 am

I agree with the ruling, discrimination is no longer acceptable. Suppose if they had refused to take pictures of an interracial couple or a couple who were different religions, that would certainly not be allowed so this is a civil rights issue, not free speech or religion.

User avatar
Alyekra
Minister
 
Posts: 2828
Founded: May 03, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Alyekra » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:42 am

The Armed Republic of Dutch coolness wrote:
Alyekra wrote:Why would you even want someone who doesn't agree with gay marriage at your gay wedding? I can't think of another explanation for these people's actions then they like to rub "Gay rights" in people faces. Another absolutely disgusting example of Tyranny.

Time to create your dream, then.
The gay-free land of freedom and love!



Oh, wait..


Did I say that? No.

Just because you're gay doesn't mean you get to tell other people what to do.
(FOR LEGAL REASONS, THAT'S A JOKE)

65 dkp

User avatar
The Armed Republic of Dutch Coolness
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 29177
Founded: Dec 02, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby The Armed Republic of Dutch Coolness » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:43 am

Alyekra wrote:
The Armed Republic of Dutch coolness wrote:Time to create your dream, then.
The gay-free land of freedom and love!



Oh, wait..


Did I say that? No.

Just because you're gay doesn't mean you get to tell other people what to do.

The way you wrote down 'Gay Rights' made it appear so.
P2TM Mentor
TG me!
Discord available on request as well
Or join the Mentor Discord server!

Such a cool time I select, looking out my window, and that's that

The worlding of the words is AMARANTH.

User avatar
Alyekra
Minister
 
Posts: 2828
Founded: May 03, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Alyekra » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:45 am

The Armed Republic of Dutch coolness wrote:
Alyekra wrote:
Did I say that? No.

Just because you're gay doesn't mean you get to tell other people what to do.

The way you wrote down 'Gay Rights' made it appear so.


It's because making people take pictures of / make cake toppings for / preform your gay wedding ceremony is not a right.
(FOR LEGAL REASONS, THAT'S A JOKE)

65 dkp

User avatar
Alyekra
Minister
 
Posts: 2828
Founded: May 03, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Alyekra » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:46 am

Schweizweld wrote:I agree with the ruling, discrimination is no longer acceptable. Suppose if they had refused to take pictures of an interracial couple or a couple who were different religions, that would certainly not be allowed so this is a civil rights issue, not free speech or religion.


Wrong. No one has a right to somebody else's services.
(FOR LEGAL REASONS, THAT'S A JOKE)

65 dkp

User avatar
Auralia
Senator
 
Posts: 4982
Founded: Dec 15, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Auralia » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:49 am

Blekksprutia wrote:A business should not have the right to discriminate against its customers. /thread


That's a gross oversimplification. Business should be allowed to and do discriminate against customers on a regular basis; problems only arise when the grounds for discrimination are illegitimate (i.e. on protected grounds). Even in such cases, if other businesses are willing to offer that service, there is no need to compel that business to offer it as well.
Catholic Commonwealth of Auralia
"Amor sequitur cognitionem."

User avatar
Bottle
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14985
Founded: Dec 30, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Bottle » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:49 am

Breaking: US Supreme Court Forces Businesses To Serve Blacks!
"Until evolution happens like in pokemon I'll never accept your 'evidence'!" -Ifreann
"Well, excuuuuuuse me, feminist." -Ende

User avatar
Imota
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1828
Founded: Dec 19, 2007
Democratic Socialists

Postby Imota » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:50 am

I never figured I'd use the phrase "he knew the risks when he took the job" to describe a photographer, but... she knew the risks when she took the job. She made her decision, argued her case before a judge, and has been judged in accordance with the law. What more can anyone ask for?
Last edited by Imota on Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Agritum
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22161
Founded: May 09, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Agritum » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:50 am

I think that businesses should be permitted to discriminate against customers.

So that everyone can see their bigotry and send them bankrupt by boycotting them.

User avatar
Alyekra
Minister
 
Posts: 2828
Founded: May 03, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Alyekra » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:51 am

Imota wrote:I never figured I'd use the phrase "he knew the risks when he took the job" to describe a photographer, but... she knew the risks when she took the job. She made his decision, argued her case before a judge, and has been judged in accordance with the law. What more can anyone ask for?


A law that isn't tyrannical, for one.
(FOR LEGAL REASONS, THAT'S A JOKE)

65 dkp

User avatar
Oglach
Secretary
 
Posts: 39
Founded: Aug 23, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Oglach » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:51 am

Can't say I have a problem with this. I've had enough people discriminate against me throughout my life to know that the kind of dicks who think they can discriminate on illegitimate grounds should be stamped out.

User avatar
Zottistan
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14894
Founded: Nov 26, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Zottistan » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:52 am

Schweizweld wrote:I agree with the ruling, discrimination is no longer acceptable. Suppose if they had refused to take pictures of an interracial couple or a couple who were different religions, that would certainly not be allowed so this is a civil rights issue, not free speech or religion.

It is indeed a civil rights issue.

I have every right to dislike somebody based on their race, or sexuality, or religion. If I find somebody's religion or sexuality offensive, I should have every right to deny them my services. We should be able to choose who we associate with based on any factor.
Ireland, BCL and LLM, Training Barrister, Cismale Bi Dude and Gym-Bro, Generally Boring Socdem Eurocuck

User avatar
The Armed Republic of Dutch Coolness
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 29177
Founded: Dec 02, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby The Armed Republic of Dutch Coolness » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:53 am

Alyekra wrote:
Imota wrote:I never figured I'd use the phrase "he knew the risks when he took the job" to describe a photographer, but... she knew the risks when she took the job. She made his decision, argued her case before a judge, and has been judged in accordance with the law. What more can anyone ask for?


A law that isn't tyrannical, for one.

Agreed. We should change the entire US law system.
P2TM Mentor
TG me!
Discord available on request as well
Or join the Mentor Discord server!

Such a cool time I select, looking out my window, and that's that

The worlding of the words is AMARANTH.

User avatar
Alqania
Minister
 
Posts: 2548
Founded: Aug 03, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Alqania » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:53 am

Businesses should not be allowed to discriminate by refusing to perform their services because of gender or sexual orientation.

EDIT: The poll question
Was it right for the NM Supreme Court to force Ms. Huguenin to photograph a gay wedding ceremony?

is rather misleading, as that's not what the court actually did - the ceremony is long over and won't be photographed by her.
Last edited by Alqania on Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Queendom of Alqania
Amor vincit omnia et nos cedamus amori
Former Speaker of the Gay Regional Parliament
Represented in the WA by Ambassador Lord Raekevikinfo
and Deputy Ambassador Princess Christineinfo
Author of GA#178
Member of UNOG and the Stonewall Alliance

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Keltionialang, Likhinia, Majestic-12 [Bot], Orcland, The Black Forrest, Tiami, Tungstan

Advertisement

Remove ads