Man Dies After Police Taze Him For Being On Roof (Updated)

[AiliailiA]

You think tazing causes fatal brain damage?

Cardiac arrest and stroke are the principal causes of brain damage in adults.

OK. Stroke is bleeding in the brain. Blood vessels there are more fragile than in extremities, or even other organs. Hyrdrostatic shock (from impact to the head) can tear them.

And if the guy did suffer a heart attack (a really major one to cause fatal brain damage) due to being tazed, he should have been treated in a hospital. Heart attack from being tazed though isn't likely unless the person is over 50. A 44 year old, maybe.

[Geilinor]

Cardiac arrest and stroke are the principal causes of brain damage in adults.

OK. Stroke is bleeding in the brain. Blood vessels there are more fragile than in extremities, or even other organs. Hyrdrostatic shock (from impact to the head) can tear them.

And if the guy did suffer a heart attack (a really major one to cause fatal brain damage) due to being tazed, he should have been treated in a hospital. Heart attack from being tazed though isn't likely unless the person is over 50. A 44 year old, maybe.

Was there any evidence that the guy did die because of health problems triggered by the taser? We need to wait for medical reports.

[AiliailiA]

OK. Stroke is bleeding in the brain. Blood vessels there are more fragile than in extremities, or even other organs. Hyrdrostatic shock (from impact to the head) can tear them.

And if the guy did suffer a heart attack (a really major one to cause fatal brain damage) due to being tazed, he should have been treated in a hospital. Heart attack from being tazed though isn't likely unless the person is over 50. A 44 year old, maybe.

Was there any evidence that the guy did die because of health problems triggered by the taser? We need to wait for medical reports.

I'd lay 5-1 it was banging his head on the ground which did it. If it was a heart attack (only plausible connection between tazing and severe brain damage) that would already have been detected in hospital (even a minor heart attack shows up if the person's heart is still beating for a doppler reading). If there was evidence of a heart attack, police would be eager to release it.

A known but rare risk of tasering is easier to justify than unnecessary and preventable blunt force trauma.

I'm not sure what to do about a guy on a roof though. I don't expect police to climb up there themselves (they could fall off themselves, or it might force the guy to jump). Tasering him there seems an unacceptable risk (of him falling off). I guess most of them should go back to the cars and leave one to try to talk him down. Maybe get a net and then taser him?

[Geilinor]

Was there any evidence that the guy did die because of health problems triggered by the taser? We need to wait for medical reports.

I'd lay 5-1 it was banging his head on the ground which did it. If it was a heart attack (only plausible connection between tazing and severe brain damage) that would already have been detected in hospital (even a minor heart attack shows up if the person's heart is still beating for a doppler reading). If there was evidence of a heart attack, police would be eager to release it.

A known but rare risk of tasering is easier to justify than unnecessary and preventable blunt force trauma.

I'm not sure what to do about a guy on a roof though. I don't expect police to climb up there themselves (they could fall off themselves, or it might force the guy to jump). Tasering him there seems an unacceptable risk (of him falling off). I guess most of them should go back to the cars and leave one to try to talk him down. Maybe get a net and then taser him?

Probably. It certainly would be dangerous to taser him and put him in a choke hold on top of a roof.

[Sociobiology]

tazers actually have a fairly high incidence of death, mostly because police are far far more likely to use them than they are a gun because they don't think they are dangerous.
hence the latest change from "non-lethal" to "less lethal"

[AiliailiA]

tazers actually have a fairly high incidence of death, mostly because police are far far more likely to use them than they are a gun because they don't think they are dangerous.
hence the latest change from "non-lethal" to "less lethal"

Per-use they're pretty safe. But your point is relevant, as the guy got down from the roof himself (per the article, I haven't seen the video). There probably wasn't any need to taser him at all.

Cops shouldn't tase people just because they might resist, only if they are. And tasers should have only the disabling function not "drive" function intended to cause pain. Giving police a tool to torture without leaving marks can't be expected to end well.

[Brickistan]

Living in Scandinavia (and so going mostly by what I read in the news and see on YouTube), I would suggest that you could do away with the notion of "overwhelming force". Seems to me that the police have now become so militarized that their default reaction to any incident, smelling ever so slightly of danger, is to draw their guns and tasers. And once you got your guns drawn, it's all to easy to get a bad case of nerves. Everybody is on edge, yelling and screaming, and if one officer snaps and starts shooting everybody follows suit and the suspect ends up riddle with bullets, deserved or not...

If, on the other hand, guns were still holstered and voices were kept down, then there would be less of a chance of someone snapping.

Yes, this might mean that, from time to time, a suspect will get to shoot first. But that's why officers are well trained and well paid - to minimize such occurrences. At least, in theory...


Remember the old saying about how having a hammer makes every problem look like a nail? Well, when you're constantly on the look for guns, driving around with pistols, rifles, bulletproof vests, tasers, etc. in your car, then perhaps the temptation to shoot first becomes overwhelming.


Of course, the glorification of violence that permeates the American culture cannot be ignored. When you have that many guns in the hands of the public, and a general sense that violence is acceptable and that "might makes right"... Well... I guess it's not unreasonable for officers to assume that they will regularly be meet with deadly violence.

I bet you would say something different if YOU had to wear a uniform and be on the front line in the war against crime in the United States of America!

See I don't understand why people want to put all these obstacles in the way of brave men and women who risk their lives everyday to protect us from criminal filth. Yeah they make mistakes from time to time but look at the big picture! And imagine a world without cops dude!

Now you want to put more red tape against officers drawing their weapons when they feel they are threatened... wow... just wow...

Have you forgotten how easy it is for criminals to get guns in America? You want the police to walk into dangerous places without their guns drawn?

Yes, that's what I want because that's part of their job; even if you suspect that the target is armed. You should start by defusing the situation, not escalate it through use of weapons. Guns should never be the first resort, especially considering that there are other ways to take down a suspect.

But apart form that, I would ask you to look at the language you use as that is exactly what I'm talking about. US police officers are not on a "front line" and are not part of a "war". Also, I would suggest that while some criminals are undoubtedly "filth", this is far from an universal truth - especially considering the draconian drug-laws you have. Not that it matters though, even if a subject is guilty as hell and obvious "filth", that's still not an excuse to gun him down. He has every bit as much right to live and face his day in court as you and I.

[Imperializt Russia]

He was dragged down the stairs with his head unsupported, for one.

It's a common problem in street fights. Knocking someone unconscious should be the end of it but then they fall down limp and hit their head on concrete. It's hydrostatic shock, in the rather squishy substance of the brain, which does the damage.

I'm almost certain that's not what hydrostatic shock is.
I think that's just impact shock.

tazers actually have a fairly high incidence of death, mostly because police are far far more likely to use them than they are a gun because they don't think they are dangerous.
hence the latest change from "non-lethal" to "less lethal"

Per-use they're pretty safe. But your point is relevant, as the guy got down from the roof himself (per the article, I haven't seen the video). There probably wasn't any need to taser him at all.

Cops shouldn't tase people just because they might resist, only if they are. And tasers should have only the disabling function not "drive" function intended to cause pain. Giving police a tool to torture without leaving marks can't be expected to end well.

It gives electrical burns, and is administered by spikes.

[AiliailiA]

It's a common problem in street fights. Knocking someone unconscious should be the end of it but then they fall down limp and hit their head on concrete. It's hydrostatic shock, in the rather squishy substance of the brain, which does the damage.

I'm almost certain that's not what hydrostatic shock is.

Perhaps next time you should check Wikipedia: Hydrostatic shock before sounding off with stuff you're "almost certain" about.

The skull doesn't need to be ruptured for the g-forces to injure the brain.

I think that's just impact shock.

Per-use they're pretty safe. But your point is relevant, as the guy got down from the roof himself (per the article, I haven't seen the video). There probably wasn't any need to taser him at all.

Cops shouldn't tase people just because they might resist, only if they are. And tasers should have only the disabling function not "drive" function intended to cause pain. Giving police a tool to torture without leaving marks can't be expected to end well.

It gives electrical burns, and is administered by spikes.

Drive Stun is what I called the "drive" function. I could have been clearer about that.

[Imperializt Russia]

The Taser is believed to be a tool of torture by the UN, and the head of the Taser board is a cunt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taser#Torture

[AiliailiA]

The Taser is believed to be a tool of torture by the UN, and the head of the Taser board is a cunt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taser#Torture

I'm not completely down on Tasers. Allegedly they don't always work to make the target lose muscle control, but if so this would be a matter of not being tuned to the target's physiology and they could be technically improved in future.

If someone is charging at a cop (or at me for that matter) I'd rather they be brought down with a taser than a gun.

The drive-stun feature is another matter. If Tom Smith thinks kicking or punching to cause pain are legitimate methods of policing, he's full of shit.

[Risottia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyg32CPyKNc
http://www.wistv.com/story/23178374/fam ... sons-death

On July 28 at an apartment complex near 23rd Avenue and Indian School, several Phoenix police officers were trying to get 44-year-old Ruiz to come down from the roof. When he did, he was placed in a chokehold, tazed several times and told to stop resisting.

WTF? It would have been the same if they just shot him dead.

Can someone now explain me why I should obey an order by the US police? I'd have more chances of surviving by taking an AK-74 with me and shooting them all - instead than playing nice and hope they aren't a bunch of murderous thugs.

Discussion topic: what can be done to decrease the number of incidents of police brutality, which are becoming more and more common in the United States?

[/quote]
Start applying to cops the same penalties for murder during a crime - the crime(s) being abusing of their power and assault.
That is, life in prison or death penalty.

Or even better, start actually training those incompetents, and chuck out those who can't understand.

[The Fifth Reich of Nazi Germany]

As someone who is studying Criminal Justice and going to join the Police Academy, watching this video break my heart.I cringe the way they handle the situation the moment he drop down but when they start dragging him downstairs...It's just too much. My dream is to join the force but moment like this make me hesitate, police officer are often stress(profession and personal) and way too paranoid(It's their job to be). I want to say it's acceptable to react the way they did but...I can't...

[Resora]

http://www.policestateusa.com/2013/poli ... lling-him/

For those who were wondering about the circumstances.

Michael Angel Ruiz is the son of a retired LAPD detective and had a history of drug addiction. On July 28, for reasons unknown, he climbed onto the roof of his apartment. Witnesses called the police to protect his safety. This turned out to have been a fatal decision.

Ruiz, while he may not have been sober, was not acting aggressively towards anyone. Police attempted to get him to come down without success. They resorted to tasing him on the roof, a violation of Phoenix Police Department’s own department policy against using a stun gun on someone who is in danger of falling, reported Sara Goldenberg of ABC 15 Arizona. Witnesses say that police tased him several times on the rooftop.

After sustaining electric shocks from police, Ruiz complied with requests to come off the roof. Video taken by witnesses shows him hopping down to a balcony. An unidentified Phoenix police officer immediately greeted him with a choke-hold. Police used overwhelming force on the man, who had still shown no signs of aggression. Witness Gary Carthen told ABC 15 that Ruiz was “getting choked out and tased at the same time.” He remained in a choke-hold for at least three minutes, reported KPHO.

The most disturbing moments were to come. Michael Ruiz, now fully restrained, was dragged down the concrete stairs on his face. As deputies held his arms behind his back, they allowed his head to dangle and thump against every stair. At this point Ruiz may have already lost consciousness, and was making no attempt to lift his head. Video shows him lifelessly suffering head trauma on the descent down the stair case.

“I just felt sick to my stomach,” said Richard Erickson, the man’s father, to ABC 15. “I’d never seen anything like this before, even when I was with the police department.”

Ruiz had to be resuscitated at the scene, but was determined to be brain-dead at the hospital, according to KPHO. His family took him off of life-support on August 2.

He was probably tripping or drunk and in his intoxicated state thought getting on the roof might be fun. Because he's intoxicated, he wasn't able to respond coherently to the police, so the assholes start tazing him while he's on the roof. The cops then put him in a chokehold for three full minutes, potentially inflicting permanent brain damage (he was entirely unresponsive when he was dragged down the steps as a result of that chokehold).

[Dyakovo]

http://www.policestateusa.com/2013/police-taser-man-to-get-him-off-a-roof-choke-drag-him-face-down-across-a-staircase-killing-him/

For those who were wondering about the circumstances.

Michael Angel Ruiz is the son of a retired LAPD detective and had a history of drug addiction. On July 28, for reasons unknown, he climbed onto the roof of his apartment. Witnesses called the police to protect his safety. This turned out to have been a fatal decision.

Ruiz, while he may not have been sober, was not acting aggressively towards anyone. Police attempted to get him to come down without success. They resorted to tasing him on the roof, a violation of Phoenix Police Department’s own department policy against using a stun gun on someone who is in danger of falling, reported Sara Goldenberg of ABC 15 Arizona. Witnesses say that police tased him several times on the rooftop.

After sustaining electric shocks from police, Ruiz complied with requests to come off the roof. Video taken by witnesses shows him hopping down to a balcony. An unidentified Phoenix police officer immediately greeted him with a choke-hold. Police used overwhelming force on the man, who had still shown no signs of aggression. Witness Gary Carthen told ABC 15 that Ruiz was “getting choked out and tased at the same time.” He remained in a choke-hold for at least three minutes, reported KPHO.

The most disturbing moments were to come. Michael Ruiz, now fully restrained, was dragged down the concrete stairs on his face. As deputies held his arms behind his back, they allowed his head to dangle and thump against every stair. At this point Ruiz may have already lost consciousness, and was making no attempt to lift his head. Video shows him lifelessly suffering head trauma on the descent down the stair case.

“I just felt sick to my stomach,” said Richard Erickson, the man’s father, to ABC 15. “I’d never seen anything like this before, even when I was with the police department.”

Ruiz had to be resuscitated at the scene, but was determined to be brain-dead at the hospital, according to KPHO. His family took him off of life-support on August 2.

He was probably tripping or drunk and in his intoxicated state thought getting on the roof might be fun. Because he's intoxicated, he wasn't able to respond coherently to the police, so the assholes start tazing him while he's on the roof. The cops then put him in a chokehold for three full minutes, potentially inflicting permanent brain damage (he was entirely unresponsive when he was dragged down the steps as a result of that chokehold).

Thanks.
Looks like it is a case of police brutality/ excessive use of force.

[Starkiller101]

what was he doing on the roof? Playing the fiddle?

he was probaly just sitting up there and the cops tased him for no reason

[Dyakovo]

what was he doing on the roof? Playing the fiddle?

he was probaly just sitting up there and the cops tased him for no reason

Not for no reason. For no good reason and acting contrary to department policy.

Ruiz, while he may not have been sober, was not acting aggressively towards anyone. Police attempted to get him to come down without success. They resorted to tasing him on the roof, a violation of Phoenix Police Department’s own department policy against using a stun gun on someone who is in danger of falling, reported Sara Goldenberg of ABC 15 Arizona. Witnesses say that police tased him several times on the rooftop.

[Geilinor]

tazers actually have a fairly high incidence of death, mostly because police are far far more likely to use them than they are a gun because they don't think they are dangerous.
hence the latest change from "non-lethal" to "less lethal"

Per-use they're pretty safe. But your point is relevant, as the guy got down from the roof himself (per the article, I haven't seen the video). There probably wasn't any need to taser him at all.

Cops shouldn't tase people just because they might resist, only if they are. And tasers should have only the disabling function not "drive" function intended to cause pain. Giving police a tool to torture without leaving marks can't be expected to end well.

If the police officer didn't have it on disable, there's a problem. According to department policy, they shouldn't be tasing people to prevent them from falling at all.

[Geilinor]

http://www.policestateusa.com/2013/police-taser-man-to-get-him-off-a-roof-choke-drag-him-face-down-across-a-staircase-killing-him/

For those who were wondering about the circumstances.

Michael Angel Ruiz is the son of a retired LAPD detective and had a history of drug addiction. On July 28, for reasons unknown, he climbed onto the roof of his apartment. Witnesses called the police to protect his safety. This turned out to have been a fatal decision.

Ruiz, while he may not have been sober, was not acting aggressively towards anyone. Police attempted to get him to come down without success. They resorted to tasing him on the roof, a violation of Phoenix Police Department’s own department policy against using a stun gun on someone who is in danger of falling, reported Sara Goldenberg of ABC 15 Arizona. Witnesses say that police tased him several times on the rooftop.

After sustaining electric shocks from police, Ruiz complied with requests to come off the roof. Video taken by witnesses shows him hopping down to a balcony. An unidentified Phoenix police officer immediately greeted him with a choke-hold. Police used overwhelming force on the man, who had still shown no signs of aggression. Witness Gary Carthen told ABC 15 that Ruiz was “getting choked out and tased at the same time.” He remained in a choke-hold for at least three minutes, reported KPHO.

The most disturbing moments were to come. Michael Ruiz, now fully restrained, was dragged down the concrete stairs on his face. As deputies held his arms behind his back, they allowed his head to dangle and thump against every stair. At this point Ruiz may have already lost consciousness, and was making no attempt to lift his head. Video shows him lifelessly suffering head trauma on the descent down the stair case.

“I just felt sick to my stomach,” said Richard Erickson, the man’s father, to ABC 15. “I’d never seen anything like this before, even when I was with the police department.”

Ruiz had to be resuscitated at the scene, but was determined to be brain-dead at the hospital, according to KPHO. His family took him off of life-support on August 2.

He was probably tripping or drunk and in his intoxicated state thought getting on the roof might be fun. Because he's intoxicated, he wasn't able to respond coherently to the police, so the assholes start tazing him while he's on the roof. The cops then put him in a chokehold for three full minutes, potentially inflicting permanent brain damage (he was entirely unresponsive when he was dragged down the steps as a result of that chokehold).

A chokehold for 3 minutes? Obviously that could result in severe brain damage. And then, instead of getting an ambulance to take him on a stretcher, he was dragged down the stairs.