Christianity and Homosexuality

[Linker Niederrhein]

All behaviors have a genetically based dude, else they wouldn't be expressed.

Our ability to change behaviour by way of different social contexts (Example & education), the application of of a wide range of chemcal substances & their effect on - for example - one's hormones, and other such things belies this claim.

I also observe the rather widely differing scale of homo- or bisexual behaviour throughout a relatively limited timeframe of three- to five thousand years, and indeed, regional differences of the same. 'It's genetic!' is therefore, well... Wrong.

It does play a role, but it's hardly the only factor.

tl;dr: 'DNA explains EVERYTHING!' is bullshit.

[Flameswroth]

Christianity condemns the act of sexual contact between two men. It does not, however, condemn the tendencies of a homosexual male or female i.e. their lifestyle and mannerisms. God tells mankind to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth, but with what? Not necessarily more humans.

Animals practice homosexual acts more and more in these times, but will they go to Hell? Should they know better?

Christianity does not hold that animals are capable of sin, as animals are not aware enough to understand right vs. wrong. Some Christians also hold that animals to not posses a soul.

Also, as far as I recall correctly, animals do not perform homosexual acts for pleasure, but to indicate dominance.

Quite similar to the "big bad prisoner / prison bitch" relationship.

You recall incorrectly.

Bottlenose dolphins

giraffes

Asiatic elephants

black swans

bonobos

You know, this surprising comes as no big revelation to me. I always figured giraffes and dolphins were gay.

[Ascon]

You recall incorrectly....

I can see where that might be useful for some species of animals. By having a means by which they can satisfy the sexual imperative without creating more offspring and thus competition for the food supply or feeding their predators, it can be a useful trick for the community.

Still not sure how that applies to human behavior, but meh.

[Gift-of-god]

I'm not sure about that. Is building a submarine natural for humans? I suppose it is, if it's natural for beavers to build dams or spiders to build webs. You have to nail down your definition of natural before it can be used in a discussion like this.

Not really. All I have to do I show that they do not use logical consistency in their definition.

Why? Just because God can do a thing doesn't mean He must, or that it would even be the right thing.

Can god design a world where we choose not to sin?

I'm not sure why that is.

And what's "Christian Orthodoxy" anymore? Whichever flavor happens to be in the majority? Whichever denomination claims to have the most ancient source? Whoever's copy of the Bible is oldest?

I've answered that question twice now. I don't think answering a third time will move the conversation forward.

[Kobrania]

All behaviors have a genetically based dude, else they wouldn't be expressed.

Our ability to change behaviour by way of different social contexts (Example & education), the application of of a wide range of chemcal substances & their effect on - for example - one's hormones, and other such things belies this claim.

I also observe the rather widely differing scale of homo- or bisexual behaviour throughout a relatively limited timeframe of three- to five thousand years, and indeed, regional differences of the same. 'It's genetic!' is therefore, well... Wrong.

It does play a role, but it's hardly the only factor.

tl;dr: 'DNA explains EVERYTHING!' is bullshit.

With out the genes to do anything, you want do anything.

To display any behavior, you need a genetic base to even perform it.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

Christianity condemns the act of sexual contact between two men. It does not, however, condemn the tendencies of a homosexual male or female i.e. their lifestyle and mannerisms. God tells mankind to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth, but with what? Not necessarily more humans.

Animals practice homosexual acts more and more in these times, but will they go to Hell? Should they know better?

Christianity does not hold that animals are capable of sin, as animals are not aware enough to understand right vs. wrong. Some Christians also hold that animals to not posses a soul.

Also, as far as I recall correctly, animals do not perform homosexual acts for pleasure, but to indicate dominance.

Quite similar to the "big bad prisoner / prison bitch" relationship.

You recall incorrectly.

Bottlenose dolphins, for example, do not form life-long heterosexual pair bonds, but they are known to form life-long "gay" pair bonds. "Gay couples" will help one another hunt, defend, or even seek out a mate when it comes time for them to briefly contact a female in order to pass on their genetic material.

Male giraffes engage in "necking" (har har, but it's actually the term for it!) and mutual sexual stimulation quite often. In fact, "gay sex" is more common among male giraffe than "heterosexual sex." Males court each other and caress each other before showing mounting behavior, quite different from the dominance rituals in that species.

Among Asiatic elephants, as well, there is usually physical affection such as kissing and caressing before homosexual mounting. Though heterosexual courtships and matings are fleeting in these elephants, males may form "gay partnerships" which last for years.

About a quarter of black swans are "gay", and will even steal nests or form temporary three-somes with a female until she lays eggs and gets driven from the nest so that the two males can rear the offspring.

And, of course, our closest genetic relatives, the bonobos, are notorious for their sexual behaviors! Female-female sexual intercourse is the most common form of sex in that species, though male-female, male-male, and group sex are all quite common. Far from being used for dominance, the bonobos tend to use sex for the opposite purpose...to diffuse tense social situations and prevent fights for dominance. For example, normally if you bring some food to a group of monkeys, there will be agitation and even fighting as the monkeys try to sort out who gets how much food. However, bonobos will have an orgy instead. They have a bunch of sex so that everyone feels happy and calm, and then they share out the food while they're all in a very nice mood.

Hmm... is it possible that all of those animals have very poor eyesight? I mean have you ever heard an elephant say "Wow, that chick elephant is HOT" Maybe they just have bad eyesight.

Look at it this way. You are a giraffe. Your eyes are like 300 ft off the ground. The business end of mating is like 20 ft off the ground. Can you really lift of the skirt of a giraffe to tell if it is female?

Look at it another way. Fred is a crossdresser. He happens to be a very pretty crossdresser. Me being a horny, and maybe even drunken sailor, mistakes Fred for a girl. Now, we go to a seedy motel and do what horny sailors do. Does that make me homosexual? Or does that simply mean that I have a lousy case of Beer goggles?

[New Kereptica]

Hmm... is it possible that all of those animals have very poor eyesight? I mean have you ever heard an elephant say "Wow, that chick elephant is HOT" Maybe they just have bad eyesight.

Look at it this way. You are a giraffe. Your eyes are like 300 ft off the ground. The business end of mating is like 20 ft off the ground. Can you really lift of the skirt of a giraffe to tell if it is female?

Look at it another way. Fred is a crossdresser. He happens to be a very pretty crossdresser. Me being a horny, and maybe even drunken sailor, mistakes Fred for a girl. Now, they go to a seedy motel and do what horny sailors do. Does that make Fred homosexual? Or does that simply mean that Fred has a lousy case of Beer goggles?

The chance of that being the case in every instance of animal homosexuality is astronomically small.

[Kobrania]

Christianity condemns the act of sexual contact between two men. It does not, however, condemn the tendencies of a homosexual male or female i.e. their lifestyle and mannerisms. God tells mankind to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth, but with what? Not necessarily more humans.

Animals practice homosexual acts more and more in these times, but will they go to Hell? Should they know better?

Christianity does not hold that animals are capable of sin, as animals are not aware enough to understand right vs. wrong. Some Christians also hold that animals to not posses a soul.

Also, as far as I recall correctly, animals do not perform homosexual acts for pleasure, but to indicate dominance.

Quite similar to the "big bad prisoner / prison bitch" relationship.

You recall incorrectly.

Bottlenose dolphins, for example, do not form life-long heterosexual pair bonds, but they are known to form life-long "gay" pair bonds. "Gay couples" will help one another hunt, defend, or even seek out a mate when it comes time for them to briefly contact a female in order to pass on their genetic material.

Male giraffes engage in "necking" (har har, but it's actually the term for it!) and mutual sexual stimulation quite often. In fact, "gay sex" is more common among male giraffe than "heterosexual sex." Males court each other and caress each other before showing mounting behavior, quite different from the dominance rituals in that species.

Among Asiatic elephants, as well, there is usually physical affection such as kissing and caressing before homosexual mounting. Though heterosexual courtships and matings are fleeting in these elephants, males may form "gay partnerships" which last for years.

About a quarter of black swans are "gay", and will even steal nests or form temporary three-somes with a female until she lays eggs and gets driven from the nest so that the two males can rear the offspring.

And, of course, our closest genetic relatives, the bonobos, are notorious for their sexual behaviors! Female-female sexual intercourse is the most common form of sex in that species, though male-female, male-male, and group sex are all quite common. Far from being used for dominance, the bonobos tend to use sex for the opposite purpose...to diffuse tense social situations and prevent fights for dominance. For example, normally if you bring some food to a group of monkeys, there will be agitation and even fighting as the monkeys try to sort out who gets how much food. However, bonobos will have an orgy instead. They have a bunch of sex so that everyone feels happy and calm, and then they share out the food while they're all in a very nice mood.

Hmm... is it possible that all of those animals have very poor eyesight? I mean have you ever heard an elephant say "Wow, that chick elephant is HOT" Maybe they just have bad eyesight.

Look at it this way. You are a giraffe. Your eyes are like 300 ft off the ground. The business end of mating is like 20 ft off the ground. Can you really lift of the skirt of a giraffe to tell if it is female?

Look at it another way. Fred is a crossdresser. He happens to be a very pretty crossdresser. Me being a horny, and maybe even drunken sailor, mistakes Fred for a girl. Now, they go to a seedy motel and do what horny sailors do. Does that make Fred homosexual? Or does that simply mean that Fred has a lousy case of Beer goggles?

No you are just trying to derail the subject because you are losing the argument, typical.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

Hmm... is it possible that all of those animals have very poor eyesight? I mean have you ever heard an elephant say "Wow, that chick elephant is HOT" Maybe they just have bad eyesight.

Look at it this way. You are a giraffe. Your eyes are like 300 ft off the ground. The business end of mating is like 20 ft off the ground. Can you really lift of the skirt of a giraffe to tell if it is female?

Look at it another way. Fred is a crossdresser. He happens to be a very pretty crossdresser. Me being a horny, and maybe even drunken sailor, mistakes Fred for a girl. Now, they go to a seedy motel and do what horny sailors do. Does that make Fred homosexual? Or does that simply mean that Fred has a lousy case of Beer goggles?

The chance of that being the case in every instance of animal homosexuality is astronomically small.

Really? You have a degree in sexual habits in the wild kingdom?

[Kobrania]

Hmm... is it possible that all of those animals have very poor eyesight? I mean have you ever heard an elephant say "Wow, that chick elephant is HOT" Maybe they just have bad eyesight.

Look at it this way. You are a giraffe. Your eyes are like 300 ft off the ground. The business end of mating is like 20 ft off the ground. Can you really lift of the skirt of a giraffe to tell if it is female?

Look at it another way. Fred is a crossdresser. He happens to be a very pretty crossdresser. Me being a horny, and maybe even drunken sailor, mistakes Fred for a girl. Now, they go to a seedy motel and do what horny sailors do. Does that make Fred homosexual? Or does that simply mean that Fred has a lousy case of Beer goggles?

The chance of that being the case in every instance of animal homosexuality is astronomically small.

Really? You have a degree in sexual habits in the wild kingdom?

Since homosexuality occurs in 10% of the human population, he is correct.

[New Kereptica]

Hmm... is it possible that all of those animals have very poor eyesight? I mean have you ever heard an elephant say "Wow, that chick elephant is HOT" Maybe they just have bad eyesight.

Look at it this way. You are a giraffe. Your eyes are like 300 ft off the ground. The business end of mating is like 20 ft off the ground. Can you really lift of the skirt of a giraffe to tell if it is female?

Look at it another way. Fred is a crossdresser. He happens to be a very pretty crossdresser. Me being a horny, and maybe even drunken sailor, mistakes Fred for a girl. Now, they go to a seedy motel and do what horny sailors do. Does that make Fred homosexual? Or does that simply mean that Fred has a lousy case of Beer goggles?

The chance of that being the case in every instance of animal homosexuality is astronomically small.

Really? You have a degree in sexual habits in the wild kingdom?

Do you?

[Redwulf]

Hmm... is it possible that all of those animals have very poor eyesight? I mean have you ever heard an elephant say "Wow, that chick elephant is HOT" Maybe they just have bad eyesight.

Look at it this way. You are a giraffe. Your eyes are like 300 ft off the ground. The business end of mating is like 20 ft off the ground. Can you really lift of the skirt of a giraffe to tell if it is female?

Look at it another way. Fred is a crossdresser. He happens to be a very pretty crossdresser. Me being a horny, and maybe even drunken sailor, mistakes Fred for a girl. Now, they go to a seedy motel and do what horny sailors do. Does that make Fred homosexual? Or does that simply mean that Fred has a lousy case of Beer goggles?

The chance of that being the case in every instance of animal homosexuality is astronomically small.

Especially when you take into account that many animals select their mate by smell rather than sight.

[Ascon]

Not really. All I have to do I show that they do not use logical consistency in their definition.

What does it matter unless you do?

Can god design a world where we choose not to sin?

Sure. But why would He want to?

I'm not sure why that is.

And what's "Christian Orthodoxy" anymore? Whichever flavor happens to be in the majority? Whichever denomination claims to have the most ancient source? Whoever's copy of the Bible is oldest?

I've answered that question twice now. I don't think answering a third time will move the conversation forward.

Well, not in the context I'm using here. You're citing one definition where someone else may cite another. My question is rhetorical.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

Hmm... is it possible that all of those animals have very poor eyesight? I mean have you ever heard an elephant say "Wow, that chick elephant is HOT" Maybe they just have bad eyesight.

Look at it this way. You are a giraffe. Your eyes are like 300 ft off the ground. The business end of mating is like 20 ft off the ground. Can you really lift of the skirt of a giraffe to tell if it is female?

Look at it another way. Fred is a crossdresser. He happens to be a very pretty crossdresser. Me being a horny, and maybe even drunken sailor, mistakes Fred for a girl. Now, they go to a seedy motel and do what horny sailors do. Does that make Fred homosexual? Or does that simply mean that Fred has a lousy case of Beer goggles?

The chance of that being the case in every instance of animal homosexuality is astronomically small.

Especially when you take into account that many animals select their mate by smell rather than sight.

have you ever smelled an Elephant? I'd mistake a girl for a guy too

[The Alma Mater]

Hmm... is it possible that all of those animals have very poor eyesight? I mean have you ever heard an elephant say "Wow, that chick elephant is HOT" Maybe they just have bad eyesight.

Or perhaps God, in his infinite wisdom, thought it was better to have a few non-reproducing individuals in every population. You know, so they could help their bethern raising their children and such.

[Linker Niederrhein]

All behaviors have a genetically based dude, else they wouldn't be expressed.

Our ability to change behaviour by way of different social contexts (Example & education), the application of of a wide range of chemcal substances & their effect on - for example - one's hormones, and other such things belies this claim.

I also observe the rather widely differing scale of homo- or bisexual behaviour throughout a relatively limited timeframe of three- to five thousand years, and indeed, regional differences of the same. 'It's genetic!' is therefore, well... Wrong.

It does play a role, but it's hardly the only factor.

tl;dr: 'DNA explains EVERYTHING!' is bullshit.

With out the genes to do anything, you want do anything.

To display any behavior, you need a genetic base to even perform it.

That's like saying that your behaviour is determined by the quarks you're made of.

[Ascon]

Or perhaps God, in his infinite wisdom, thought it was better to have a few non-reproducing individuals in every population. You know, so they could help their bethern raising their children and such.

Do giraffes do that?

[Kobrania]

Hmm... is it possible that all of those animals have very poor eyesight? I mean have you ever heard an elephant say "Wow, that chick elephant is HOT" Maybe they just have bad eyesight.

Look at it this way. You are a giraffe. Your eyes are like 300 ft off the ground. The business end of mating is like 20 ft off the ground. Can you really lift of the skirt of a giraffe to tell if it is female?

Look at it another way. Fred is a crossdresser. He happens to be a very pretty crossdresser. Me being a horny, and maybe even drunken sailor, mistakes Fred for a girl. Now, they go to a seedy motel and do what horny sailors do. Does that make Fred homosexual? Or does that simply mean that Fred has a lousy case of Beer goggles?

The chance of that being the case in every instance of animal homosexuality is astronomically small.

Especially when you take into account that many animals select their mate by smell rather than sight.

have you ever smelled an Elephant? I'd mistake a girl for a guy too

Irrelevant, as humans rely more on sight than smell. Whilst elephants are more sensitive to ground vibrations and smell than sight

[Gift-of-god]

....

Well, not in the context I'm using here. You're citing one definition where someone else may cite another. My question is rhetorical.

I'm finding it hard to believe that we are having the same conversation.

Tell you what, why don't you simply summarise your argument, and we'll start again.

[The Alma Mater]

Or perhaps God, in his infinite wisdom, thought it was better to have a few non-reproducing individuals in every population. You know, so they could help their bethern raising their children and such.

Do giraffes do that?

Homosexual giraffes- yes. But it could be a coincidence
And of course, having non-reproducing members in a group is not limited to homosexuality. The concept of Alpha males anyone ? Or most of the insect world...

Still, this could be part of gods masterplan

[Redwulf]

All behaviors have a genetically based dude, else they wouldn't be expressed.

Our ability to change behaviour by way of different social contexts (Example & education), the application of of a wide range of chemcal substances & their effect on - for example - one's hormones, and other such things belies this claim.

I also observe the rather widely differing scale of homo- or bisexual behaviour throughout a relatively limited timeframe of three- to five thousand years, and indeed, regional differences of the same. 'It's genetic!' is therefore, well... Wrong.

It does play a role, but it's hardly the only factor.

tl;dr: 'DNA explains EVERYTHING!' is bullshit.

With out the genes to do anything, you want do anything.

To display any behavior, you need a genetic base to even perform it.

That's like saying that your behaviour is determined by the quarks you're made of.

Used car salesmen have a high degree of this quark . . .

[Kobrania]

Or perhaps God, in his infinite wisdom, thought it was better to have a few non-reproducing individuals in every population. You know, so they could help their bethern raising their children and such.

Do giraffes do that?

Homosexual giraffes- yes. But it could be a coincidence
And of course, having non-reproducing members in a group is not limited to homosexuality. The concept of Alpha males anyone ? Or most of the insect world...

Still, this could be part of gods masterplan

Also happens in penguins.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

Hmm... is it possible that all of those animals have very poor eyesight? I mean have you ever heard an elephant say "Wow, that chick elephant is HOT" Maybe they just have bad eyesight.

Or perhaps God, in his infinite wisdom, thought it was better to have a few non-reproducing individuals in every population. You know, so they could help their bethern raising their children and such.

Sure. And we know that in an all female population, some animals can change to male. At least that's how they explained it on "Jurrasic Park"

[Ascon]

I'm finding it hard to believe that we are having the same conversation.

Tell you what, why don't you simply summarise your argument, and we'll start again.

I think it would be useful to start with a useful, consistent and working definition for what is or isn't natural. If some Christians explain homosexual behavior as sinful on the grounds that it's unnatural, then obviously their definition differs from that used by someone who holds that it is.

The problem I see when people say that homosexuality is natural because we can observe it in the animal kingdom is that what constitutes natural behavior for one species isn't necessarily so for another, so that argument isn't particularly convincing. I can understand why Christians reject it.

[Ascon]

Homosexual giraffes- yes. But it could be a coincidence
And of course, having non-reproducing members in a group is not limited to homosexuality. The concept of Alpha males anyone ? Or most of the insect world...

Isn't the benefit of being an alpha male first pick of the females?