Christianity and Homosexuality

[Roten]

Okay, there's something I don't get. According to Christian philosophy, all sins are equal and everyone's a sinner, right? So why do the kind of Christians that hate on homosexuals leave divorced people, adulterers, liars, and people that work on the sabbath alone? It's inconsistent and hypocritical.

We do not leave the others alone (or ourselves)! The only one we don't bother fighting is the working on sunday thing, because we can't fight it anymore, and it hasn't really ever been a sin. Divorced and remarried people are adulterers. You don't think I try to fight their sins either. And I have yet to hate a sinner (except possibly Bin Laden), I only hate the sin, and let sinners know (appropriately, not angrily, no bible-thumping) that what they're doing is wrong (it would be my sin to let them on in ignorance!). Obviously, I'm not a perfect person either, but I try my best. If telling someone they're wrong is 'hating', then don't tell me I'm wrong.

[Farnhamia]

but human rights violations against people are primarily supported by Christians.

I agree with everything you said before this, but this is a little extreme.

eg:

.......
Benedict's envoy to the United Nations, Archbishop Celestino Migliore, has announced that the Vatican will oppose a proposed U.N. declaration calling for an end to discrimination against homosexuals.
......

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 65,00.html

And who is surprised at this?

Gotter des Krieges, apparently. Too bad people are so used to Christian hate speech against LGBT's.

Hate speech I can deal with. It's the hate money they pour into things like Prop 8 and such that I despise. Sticks and stones, you know, but a million buck buys a damn lot of campaign material.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

Neither is a social problem.

Well, homosexuality isn't. There are some small problems created by divorce.

[Nova Magna Germania]

but human rights violations against people are primarily supported by Christians.

I agree with everything you said before this, but this is a little extreme.

eg:

.......
Benedict's envoy to the United Nations, Archbishop Celestino Migliore, has announced that the Vatican will oppose a proposed U.N. declaration calling for an end to discrimination against homosexuals.
......

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 65,00.html

And who is surprised at this?

Gotter des Krieges, apparently. Too bad people are so used to Christian hate speech against LGBT's.

Hate speech I can deal with. It's the hate money they pour into things like Prop 8 and such that I despise. Sticks and stones, you know, but a million buck buys a damn lot of campaign material.

Well, most homophobes are religious and most homophobic violence are committed by homophobes (obviously). So its not benign.

[Farnhamia]

Okay, there's something I don't get. According to Christian philosophy, all sins are equal and everyone's a sinner, right? So why do the kind of Christians that hate on homosexuals leave divorced people, adulterers, liars, and people that work on the sabbath alone? It's inconsistent and hypocritical.

We do not leave the others alone (or ourselves)! The only one we don't bother fighting is the working on sunday thing, because we can't fight it anymore, and it hasn't really ever been a sin. Divorced and remarried people are adulterers. You don't think I try to fight their sins either. And I have yet to hate a sinner (except possibly Bin Laden), I only hate the sin, and let sinners know (appropriately, not angrily, no bible-thumping) that what they're doing is wrong (it would be my sin to let them on in ignorance!). Obviously, I'm not a perfect person either, but I try my best. If telling someone they're wrong is 'hating', then don't tell me I'm wrong.

Oh, I love "hate the sin, love the sinner." Telling some their wrong is fine, but going on to tell them that they are going to be subjected to eternal torment for living their lives as they see fit, and voting to deny them the same rights you have just because they love someone of the same gender, that's hate.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

Why are you only "attacking Christians? Other religions hate homosexuals just as much, if not more.

Oh fuck, I'm about to be accused of having an anti-Christian bias. How's this for you? Fuck Muhammad!

As for why Christianity, because Christianity is just about the only religion that has sects which say that all sins are equally bad.

[Nova Magna Germania]

Neither is a social problem.

Well, homosexuality isn't. There are some small problems created by divorce.

No. The children can adapt well, if parents remain cordial and make the kids understand its not their fault.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

We do not leave the others alone (or ourselves)! The only one we don't bother fighting is the working on sunday thing, because we can't fight it anymore, and it hasn't really ever been a sin. Divorced and remarried people are adulterers. You don't think I try to fight their sins either. And I have yet to hate a sinner (except possibly Bin Laden), I only hate the sin, and let sinners know (appropriately, not angrily, no bible-thumping) that what they're doing is wrong (it would be my sin to let them on in ignorance!). Obviously, I'm not a perfect person either, but I try my best. If telling someone they're wrong is 'hating', then don't tell me I'm wrong.

You know what's funny? How there are a lot of people in the United States who honestly think that I've never heard of Christianity. Yeah, it's kind of hard to avoid hearing about it.

[Gotter des Krieges]

That is a very broad statement though, that's all I'msaying.

[Farnhamia]

Neither is a social problem.

Well, homosexuality isn't. There are some small problems created by divorce.

No. The children can adapt well, if parents remain cordial and make the kids understand its not their fault.

Which, you know, is almost always the case, right? Divorce can send kids through years of therapy, if they're lucky, or twist them painfully if they aren't.

[Nova Magna Germania]

That is a very broad statement though, that's all I'msaying.

As I said, human rights violations against LGBT people in the West are primarily (not entirely) supported and encouraged by Christians.

[Nova Magna Germania]

Neither is a social problem.

Well, homosexuality isn't. There are some small problems created by divorce.

No. The children can adapt well, if parents remain cordial and make the kids understand its not their fault.

Which, you know, is almost always the case, right? Divorce can send kids through years of therapy, if they're lucky, or twist them painfully if they aren't.

Its not the divorce which messes up the kids though. Its how parents deal with each other and with kids after divorce.

Plus, married but fighting parents do damage kids as well. It may be healthier for kids for parents to be cordial-for-kids-sake-and-divorced rather than married-fighting.

[Ashmoria]

That is a very broad statement though, that's all I'msaying.

As I said, human rights violations against LGBT people in the West are primarily (not entirely) supported and encouraged by Christians.

i think you will find that most people in the west have a christian background.

in non christian parts of the world human rights violations are primarily supported and encouraged by non-christians.

[Farnhamia]

Neither is a social problem.

Well, homosexuality isn't. There are some small problems created by divorce.

No. The children can adapt well, if parents remain cordial and make the kids understand its not their fault.

Which, you know, is almost always the case, right? Divorce can send kids through years of therapy, if they're lucky, or twist them painfully if they aren't.

Its not the divorce which messes up the kids though. Its how parents deal with each other and with kids after divorce.

Plus, married but fighting parents do damage kids as well. It may be healthier for kids for parents to be cordial-for-kids-sake-and-divorced rather than married-fighting.

Call it what you like. Divorce still takes a toll on kids, as does, yes, married and fighting parents. Couples splitting up is a societal problem, is all.

[Bramborska]

I don't believe we dislike homosexuality, because of Christianity, but that Christianity dislikes homosexuality because of the human condition.

Something deep, down, inside us; the same part that likes rounded hips, good boobs and a great ass; dislikes homosexuality for much of the same reasons.

To blame our natural responses on Christianity is, at best, internally inconsistent.

You can't say, "God doesn't exist," then turn around and say "Christianity caused this." Either Christianity's views were bestowed upon them by a higher power, or they were grown organically. If there is, after all, no God (or, how I see it, a God that views humanity as so filled with sinners that the Almighty washed his hands of us long ago) then what we see in Christianity is what we see in ourselves.

Which does explain a considerable amount of why some of us Hate Christianity so much; when homosexuality is brought up. As my (very New Left) Lit. teacher always says, when you point your finger; three are pointing back. When we point to Christianity and shout, of all its intolerances, the loudest on homosexuality; more likely than not, it is because we see in that mirror: ourselves.

[Roten]

Okay, there's something I don't get. According to Christian philosophy, all sins are equal and everyone's a sinner, right? So why do the kind of Christians that hate on homosexuals leave divorced people, adulterers, liars, and people that work on the sabbath alone? It's inconsistent and hypocritical.

We do not leave the others alone (or ourselves)! The only one we don't bother fighting is the working on sunday thing, because we can't fight it anymore, and it hasn't really ever been a sin. Divorced and remarried people are adulterers. You don't think I try to fight their sins either. And I have yet to hate a sinner (except possibly Bin Laden), I only hate the sin, and let sinners know (appropriately, not angrily, no bible-thumping) that what they're doing is wrong (it would be my sin to let them on in ignorance!). Obviously, I'm not a perfect person either, but I try my best. If telling someone they're wrong is 'hating', then don't tell me I'm wrong.

Oh, I love "hate the sin, love the sinner." Telling some their wrong is fine, but going on to tell them that they are going to be subjected to eternal torment for living their lives as they see fit, and voting to deny them the same rights you have just because they love someone of the same gender, that's hate.

Believe it or not, there is an absolute Truth in this world, and morality is not relative. I haven't yet told someone that they will perish in the fires of torment because of their sins, but I do tell them they're wrong, using rational, secular evidence if they don't listen to religious evidence (which most, I'm sure, don't). I haven't voted yet (Too young, I will next election! Out with Harry Reid!), but homosexuals have the exact same rights as me right now: they can get married to a woman or not at all, and I can do the same.

[JuNii]

Why are you only "attacking Christians? Other religions hate homosexuals just as much, if not more.

Oh fuck, I'm about to be accused of having an anti-Christian bias. How's this for you? Fuck Muhammad!

As for why Christianity, because Christianity is just about the only religion that has sects which say that all sins are equally bad.

...

For the Record UT. I'll never call you Anti-Christian.

[Nova Magna Germania]

That is a very broad statement though, that's all I'msaying.

As I said, human rights violations against LGBT people in the West are primarily (not entirely) supported and encouraged by Christians.

i think you will find that most people in the west have a christian background.

Most countries in W. and Central Europe arent Christian-majority.

Irreligion in Europe by Gallup poll (2007–2008)
Country Percentage
Estonia
 
84%
Sweden
 
83%
Denmark
 
80%
Norway
 
78%
Azerbaijan
 
74%
Czech Republic
 
74%
France
 
73%
United Kingdom
 
71%
Finland
 
69%
Netherlands
 
66%
Belarus
 
65%
Russia
 
63%
Albania
 
63%
Bulgaria
 
62%
Latvia
 
62%
Belgium
 
61%
Hungary
 
59%
Slovenia
 
59%
Spain
 
59%
Germany
 
57%
Switzerland
 
56%
Ukraine
 
54%
Lithuania
 
52%
Slovakia
 
51%
Montenegro

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Europe

in non christian parts of the world human rights violations are primarily supported and encouraged by non-christians.

No shit. However, Vatican still acts homophobic globally (eg: UN declaration)

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

I don't believe we dislike homosexuality, because of Christianity, but that Christianity dislikes homosexuality because of the human condition.

Something deep, down, inside us; the same part that likes rounded hips, good boobs and a great ass; dislikes homosexuality for much of the same reasons.

To blame our natural responses on Christianity is, at best, internally inconsistent.

You can't say, "God doesn't exist," then turn around and say "Christianity caused this." Either Christianity's views were bestowed upon them by a higher power, or they were grown organically. If there is, after all, no God (or, how I see it, a God that views humanity as so filled with sinners that the Almighty washed his hands of us long ago) then what we see in Christianity is what we see in ourselves.

Which does explain a considerable amount of why some of us Hate Christianity so much; when homosexuality is brought up. As my (very New Left) Lit. teacher always says, when you point your finger; three are pointing back. When we point to Christianity and shout, of all its intolerances, the loudest on homosexuality; more likely than not, it is because we see in that mirror: ourselves.

To be honest, this sounds like a sesquipedalian "I know you are but what am I?"

[Roten]

We do not leave the others alone (or ourselves)! The only one we don't bother fighting is the working on sunday thing, because we can't fight it anymore, and it hasn't really ever been a sin. Divorced and remarried people are adulterers. You don't think I try to fight their sins either. And I have yet to hate a sinner (except possibly Bin Laden), I only hate the sin, and let sinners know (appropriately, not angrily, no bible-thumping) that what they're doing is wrong (it would be my sin to let them on in ignorance!). Obviously, I'm not a perfect person either, but I try my best. If telling someone they're wrong is 'hating', then don't tell me I'm wrong.

You know what's funny? How there are a lot of people in the United States who honestly think that I've never heard of Christianity. Yeah, it's kind of hard to avoid hearing about it.

Well, I assume everyone's heard about at least one denomination, if they speak any language at all and have spent more than a day here.

[JuNii]

Call it what you like. Divorce still takes a toll on kids, as does, yes, married and fighting parents. Couples splitting up is a societal problem, is all.

THAT'S IT!!!

it's not that we're against Homosexuality... the reason why we don't want SSM is the fact that should they get Divorced... who will the courts Favor?!?! usually it's the female, but if both are male or female, the divorce Courts would have to actually weigh the facts! that's why so many are against SSM! they would have to look at the FACTS for Divorce cases and that might Taint Hetero Divorces!

I GET IT NOW!!! yes, I am joking here!

[Farnhamia]

Okay, there's something I don't get. According to Christian philosophy, all sins are equal and everyone's a sinner, right? So why do the kind of Christians that hate on homosexuals leave divorced people, adulterers, liars, and people that work on the sabbath alone? It's inconsistent and hypocritical.

We do not leave the others alone (or ourselves)! The only one we don't bother fighting is the working on sunday thing, because we can't fight it anymore, and it hasn't really ever been a sin. Divorced and remarried people are adulterers. You don't think I try to fight their sins either. And I have yet to hate a sinner (except possibly Bin Laden), I only hate the sin, and let sinners know (appropriately, not angrily, no bible-thumping) that what they're doing is wrong (it would be my sin to let them on in ignorance!). Obviously, I'm not a perfect person either, but I try my best. If telling someone they're wrong is 'hating', then don't tell me I'm wrong.

Oh, I love "hate the sin, love the sinner." Telling some their wrong is fine, but going on to tell them that they are going to be subjected to eternal torment for living their lives as they see fit, and voting to deny them the same rights you have just because they love someone of the same gender, that's hate.

Believe it or not, there is an absolute Truth in this world, and morality is not relative. I haven't yet told someone that they will perish in the fires of torment because of their sins, but I do tell them they're wrong, using rational, secular evidence if they don't listen to religious evidence (which most, I'm sure, don't). I haven't voted yet (Too young, I will next election! Out with Harry Reid!), but homosexuals have the exact same rights as me right now: they can get married to a woman or not at all, and I can do the same.

It may surprise you, but there is not Absolute Truth in this world and Morality is extremely relative. When you're older you'll find this out.

Of course, you would have no way of knowing, but I, as a female homosexual, do not have thr right to marry a woman, just like you. So, please explain to me, using rational, secular evidence, why I am wrong in loving and being sexually attracted to another woman. I'll wait right here.

[Nova Magna Germania]

Okay, there's something I don't get. According to Christian philosophy, all sins are equal and everyone's a sinner, right? So why do the kind of Christians that hate on homosexuals leave divorced people, adulterers, liars, and people that work on the sabbath alone? It's inconsistent and hypocritical.

We do not leave the others alone (or ourselves)! The only one we don't bother fighting is the working on sunday thing, because we can't fight it anymore, and it hasn't really ever been a sin. Divorced and remarried people are adulterers. You don't think I try to fight their sins either. And I have yet to hate a sinner (except possibly Bin Laden), I only hate the sin, and let sinners know (appropriately, not angrily, no bible-thumping) that what they're doing is wrong (it would be my sin to let them on in ignorance!). Obviously, I'm not a perfect person either, but I try my best. If telling someone they're wrong is 'hating', then don't tell me I'm wrong.

Oh, I love "hate the sin, love the sinner." Telling some their wrong is fine, but going on to tell them that they are going to be subjected to eternal torment for living their lives as they see fit, and voting to deny them the same rights you have just because they love someone of the same gender, that's hate.

Believe it or not, there is an absolute Truth in this world, and morality is not relative. I haven't yet told someone that they will perish in the fires of torment because of their sins, but I do tell them they're wrong, using rational, secular evidence if they don't listen to religious evidence (which most, I'm sure, don't). I haven't voted yet (Too young, I will next election! Out with Harry Reid!), but homosexuals have the exact same rights as me right now: they can get married to a woman or not at all, and I can do the same.

I dont think you have rational evidence/support, try the Christian Fallacy thread:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=25672

And if your kind succeeds in turning Western societies into theocracies, everyone will have the same right in worshipping the same religion.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

Believe it or not, there is an absolute Truth in this world,

Yeah, it's called physics.

and morality is not relative.

And you should be able to prove this claim. Sam Harris actually argues quite convincingly for moral realism, but you wouldn't like his morality. It is a form of consequentialism grounded in scientific reasoning.

but homosexuals have the exact same rights as me right now: they can get married to a woman or not at all, and I can do the same.

Only men have the right to marry women. Only women have the right to marry men. There's some gender inequality there.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

It may surprise you, but there is not Absolute Truth in this world

Ahem:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics