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A World Without Prices or Profit

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Xerographica
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Capitalist Paradise

A World Without Prices or Profit

Postby Xerographica » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:09 pm

Are prices or profit really necessary? For fun let's try and imagine a world without either.

If you wanted bread, you could go to your local bakery and select the quantity of bread that matched your preferences. You wouldn't have to pay for it...but the employees of the bakery would have the final say on your selection. They would approve or decline your selection when they were scanning your items for inventory purposes.

If you were happy with the experience and wanted to give the bakery positive feedback (money)...then you could go to their website and make a monetary contribution of any amount. Their website would display exactly how much positive feedback (revenue) they received.

When bakeries ordered flour from the same supplier...the supplier would use each bakery's revenue to help determine how to divvy up the flour. More revenue means more flour. Same thing with the wheat farmer. He would look at how much positive feedback (money) the suppliers had received in order to determine how best to allocate his wheat.

Would you have an incentive to work hard? Let's say that you worked in a bakery. If you failed to work hard...if you did not improve on your recipes...if you wasted your flour...if you took really long lunch breaks...if you were rude to the customers...then your bakery would lose revenue and competing bakeries would gain revenue. If your bakery lost revenue then your boss wouldn't be able to give you as much positive feedback (money).

If you received less positive feedback (money)...then you would have less influence over how society's limited resources were used. You wouldn't be able to give your favorite bands...favorite authors...favorite restaurants...as much positive feedback (money) as you felt they deserved. Plus, your living accommodations and transportation wouldn't be as nice.

So would it work? No prices...or profit...but you'd still have the freedom to give positive feedback (money) to those who were using society's limited resources for your benefit. And the amount of influence you had would depend on how much positive feedback (money) other people gave you.

[updated to emphasize that money would still exist]
Last edited by Xerographica on Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Blasveck
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Ex-Nation

Postby Blasveck » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:12 pm

So...COMMUNISM.

THE DIRTY REDS.

/sarcasm
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Regnum Dominae
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Ex-Nation

Postby Regnum Dominae » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:13 pm

Both prices and profit are very useful providers of incentive.
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TaQud
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Ex-Nation

Postby TaQud » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:17 pm

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Caninope
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Ex-Nation

Postby Caninope » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:19 pm

So, you're essentially proposing getting rid of the current pricing system in return for a system in which contribution is optional? Say hello to shortages and the free rider problem.

You see, the pricing model (for all its flaws) does at least one thing really well- it allocates resources to those who most value said resources. Without a pricing model in place, you run into situations in which consumers and producers cannot adequately allocate resources because some (or perhaps even a majority) would be more than willing to take without appropriate payment. Without the pricing model, there becomes no need for consumers to ever adjust their own behavior. Without the pricing model, economic efficiency (which is oh so dependent on the allocation of resources) takes a hit.

The pricing model evolved for a very specific reason: in a society that inhabits a world of scarcity, several fundamental questions must answered regarding the allocation of said scarce resources. Your proposed model does nothing to actually deal with these questions because it makes participation in the pricing model voluntary for consumers without proposing an alternative method (most notably, in the form of a command economy).

EDIT: This is ignoring the other problematic facets of your proposed model, including placing the burden upon suppliers to determine the appropriate amount of flour for each of their consumers, which would require considerable effort and information on their part, as well as the virtual breakdown in credit that would be created.
Last edited by Caninope on Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Esternial
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Postby Esternial » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:21 pm

So if I want chicken for dinner, go to the butcher and he says "you'll have pork and you'll bloody well like it", I should just shrug and accept?

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Vetalia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Vetalia » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:26 pm

You can't eat positive feedback.
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Charlotte Ryberg
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Postby Charlotte Ryberg » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:31 pm

Merely a Social Democrat but how would people be able to cope without a universal form of exchange with the flexibility that barter does not? If we don't have money then how could a social democracy be generous and tell the poor: okay, you don't have enough money: here's enough money, I trust you to look after yourself, period.

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Minarchist States
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Ex-Nation

Postby Minarchist States » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:33 pm

I grow my own food. You can't control me!

So if I want chicken for dinner, go to the butcher and he says "you'll have pork and you'll bloody well like it", I should just shrug and accept?


Not if the vegetarians take power. No meat for you, foo.

...positive feedback (sic)


How is positive feedback a useful motivator? Why work at all if all you get is positive feedback?
Last edited by Minarchist States on Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Trotskylvania
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Ex-Nation

Postby Trotskylvania » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:40 pm

Such a gift economy would only function in conditions of superabundance.
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Brissia
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Postby Brissia » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:43 pm

The two aspects of humans that will impede this idea is greed, and material wants in general. See, as soon as money isn't required, there will be groups of people who'll just troll everyone else by taking all the products. See, this is where money is needed: money is a sort of restriction to our greed, forcing us to think "Do I really need 4 bags of crack?"

Another reason is theft. Once there are no prices, everything will be up to grabs for any individual. But what if you don't want to give your strawberries to that shady guy over there? Three words: rioting and anarchy.

The last reason is the loss of incentive. See, people create businesses to get enough money to afford luxuries. Once there will no longer be a need for money, businesses will collapse, since people will just go and take what they want.

Also, counting positive reviews as revenue is a horrible idea, simply because humans are too lazy to take the time to get on some store's website and make a positive review.
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Brissia wrote:I'm Jewish, so I guess I'll just stare at your windows, waving a menorah at Christmas Carolers.

But you won't because Hanukkah is at Thanksgiving.
Just imagine; "Friends, family, I'd just like to say before I cut the Turkey BARUCH ATA ADONAI..."

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Minarchist States
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Postby Minarchist States » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:46 pm

Brissia wrote:The two aspects of humans that will impede this idea is greed, and material wants in general. See, as soon as money isn't required, there will be groups of people who'll just troll everyone else by taking all the products. See, this is where money is needed: money is a sort of restriction to our greed, forcing us to think "Do I really need 4 bags of crack?"

Another reason is theft. Once there are no prices, everything will be up to grabs for any individual. But what if you don't want to give your strawberries to that shady guy over there? Three words: rioting and anarchy.

The last reason is the loss of incentive. See, people create businesses to get enough money to afford luxuries. Once there will no longer be a need for money, businesses will collapse, since people will just go and take what they want.

Also, counting positive reviews as revenue is a horrible idea, simply because humans are too lazy to take the time to get on some store's website and make a positive review.


This so much this. While there is an occasional compliment, businesses are mainly spurred into action by seething negative reviews.
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Brissia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Brissia » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:54 pm

Minarchist States wrote:
Brissia wrote:The two aspects of humans that will impede this idea is greed, and material wants in general. See, as soon as money isn't required, there will be groups of people who'll just troll everyone else by taking all the products. See, this is where money is needed: money is a sort of restriction to our greed, forcing us to think "Do I really need 4 bags of crack?"

Another reason is theft. Once there are no prices, everything will be up to grabs for any individual. But what if you don't want to give your strawberries to that shady guy over there? Three words: rioting and anarchy.

The last reason is the loss of incentive. See, people create businesses to get enough money to afford luxuries. Once there will no longer be a need for money, businesses will collapse, since people will just go and take what they want.

Also, counting positive reviews as revenue is a horrible idea, simply because humans are too lazy to take the time to get on some store's website and make a positive review.


This so much this. While there is an occasional compliment, businesses are mainly spurred into action by seething negative reviews.

I may also add the supposed confusion with service-based corporations....
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Shimon-Zhivago wrote:
Brissia wrote:I'm Jewish, so I guess I'll just stare at your windows, waving a menorah at Christmas Carolers.

But you won't because Hanukkah is at Thanksgiving.
Just imagine; "Friends, family, I'd just like to say before I cut the Turkey BARUCH ATA ADONAI..."

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Souseiseki
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Souseiseki » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:56 pm

so basically you want free market capitalism where the currency is smiles
Last edited by Souseiseki on Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Trollgaard
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Ex-Nation

Postby Trollgaard » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:57 pm

The OP makes no sense.

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Minarchist States
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Ex-Nation

Postby Minarchist States » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:58 pm

Souseiseki wrote:so basically you want free market capitalism where the currency is smiles


It already is. Haven't you been to any businesses where the employees wear this dumb grins on their faces all the time? Service with a smile!
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Delmonte
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Postby Delmonte » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:01 pm

Now you've clearly put a lot of thought into this, which says a lot because your idea is incredibly bad.
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The Batorys wrote:The Delmontese like money, yeah, but they also like to throw down.

<Delmonte> I don't mean literally kill their family. I mean kill their metaphorical family.
<Delmonte> Metaphorically kill their metaphorical family.
Code: Select all
 [b][color=#0000FF][background=red]United in Opposition to [url=http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?t=303025]Liberate Haven[/url][/background][/color][/b]
[color=#FF0000][b]Mallorea and Riva should [url=http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=303090]resign[/url][/b][/color]

The man from Delmonte says yes.

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Brissia
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Postby Brissia » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:03 pm

Delmonte wrote:Now you've clearly put a lot of thought into this, which says a lot because your idea is incredibly bad.

This is strangely logical and nonsensical at the same time.
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Shimon-Zhivago wrote:
Brissia wrote:I'm Jewish, so I guess I'll just stare at your windows, waving a menorah at Christmas Carolers.

But you won't because Hanukkah is at Thanksgiving.
Just imagine; "Friends, family, I'd just like to say before I cut the Turkey BARUCH ATA ADONAI..."

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Frisivisia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Frisivisia » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:03 pm

KAWHMYOONISSUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Trollgaard
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Ex-Nation

Postby Trollgaard » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:06 pm

Frisivisia wrote:KAWHMYOONISSUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The s's should be z's.

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Krasivovia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Krasivovia » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:07 pm

Just one question: Why?

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Delmonte
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Delmonte » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:13 pm

Krasivovia wrote:Just one question: Why?

Because capitalism is evul!
[15:35] <Tag> I have a big, heavy sealed box that I have no idea what is in side of it.
[15:35] <Tag> I can only presume it is treasure.
The Batorys wrote:The Delmontese like money, yeah, but they also like to throw down.

<Delmonte> I don't mean literally kill their family. I mean kill their metaphorical family.
<Delmonte> Metaphorically kill their metaphorical family.
Code: Select all
 [b][color=#0000FF][background=red]United in Opposition to [url=http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?t=303025]Liberate Haven[/url][/background][/color][/b]
[color=#FF0000][b]Mallorea and Riva should [url=http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=303090]resign[/url][/b][/color]

The man from Delmonte says yes.

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Xerographica
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:18 pm

Sorry...I guess I should have made it clearer that eliminating prices/profit does not mean the elimination of money. LOL

I mean, in my original post I did say that positive feedback was the same thing as revenue. I should have known that some people would take it to mean that we're replacing money with smiles.

:) :) :) :)

Positive feedback = money = revenue. If you like what a bakery is doing with society's limited resources...then you'll give them positive feedback (money). This is their revenue. The more revenue they receive...the more influence they'll have over how society's limited resources are used.

If you don't work...then it's doubtful you'll receive much positive feedback (money). If you don't have much positive feedback (money) then you won't have much influence over how society's limited resources are used.
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Minarchist States
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Ex-Nation

Postby Minarchist States » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:22 pm

If you don't work...then it's doubtful you'll receive much positive feedback (money). If you don't have much positive feedback (money) then you won't have much influence over how society's limited resources are used.


...and what if you don't care? I'd love to be a burden on society, you know.
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Tsa-la-gi Nation
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Ex-Nation

Postby Tsa-la-gi Nation » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:26 pm

Funny thing is, that's very close to how my nation's currency works, the Silly Faced Raspberry. Basically, my people pay for things by making a face like this: http://www.wbng.com/younews/93500689.html

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