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California Governor Signs Transgender Student Bill

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Should transgendered participate in sports if their sex is opposite the team?

Yes
174
59%
No
121
41%
 
Total votes : 295

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Solarys
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Founded: Aug 11, 2013
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Postby Solarys » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:19 pm

Liriena wrote:
Solarys wrote:
1) Being accurate is childish now ?

2) Maybe look up the definition of vague ?

1. You weren't being accurate.

2. I know the definition of vague. The article itself is not vague. It's merely asserting how dubious current hypothesis regarding the origins of transgender people are.


1) A he to she, he-she. Accuracy. see ?

2) http://bit.ly/zpm6Bh

It is vague allright. Feel free to try and argue though.

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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:20 pm

Solarys wrote:
Liriena wrote:Source, please.


Source for how males are generally better in females in most sports ? Really ?

Yes...and feel free to also provide a source or two showing that cisgender girls would be severely disadvantaged against transgender girls. No need to do the same for cis and transgender boys, since CD doesn't really seem to care about those.
be gay do crime


I am:
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An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
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For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
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⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
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Solarys
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Postby Solarys » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:20 pm

Lithosano wrote:
Solarys wrote:
Source for how males are generally better in females in most sports ? Really ?
Let us go my muscle mass, physical strength, bone strength for a few shall we ?


Yes.

No. That's not a source. Actual sources. Now.


Maybe go back to school ?

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Solarys
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Postby Solarys » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:21 pm

Liriena wrote:
Solarys wrote:
Source for how males are generally better in females in most sports ? Really ?

Yes...and feel free to also provide a source or two showing that cisgender girls would be severely disadvantaged against transgender girls. No need to do the same for cis and transgender boys, since CD doesn't really seem to care about those.


If they have gone through hormone therapy, i can't say for sure. But otherwise... well other posters have already explained it for me.

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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:23 pm

Solarys wrote:
Liriena wrote:1. You weren't being accurate.

2. I know the definition of vague. The article itself is not vague. It's merely asserting how dubious current hypothesis regarding the origins of transgender people are.


1) A he to she, he-she. Accuracy. see ?

2) http://bit.ly/zpm6Bh

It is vague allright. Feel free to try and argue though.

1. Not accurate, no. A MtF transgender woman might have been a "he" once, but after recognizing herself as transgender and going through whatever process she deems necessary, there is nothing "he" about her. Not in definition, nor in practice. Nobody who is not overtly transphobic refers to MtF trans women as "he-she".

2. I'd gladly argue further...but what's the use? We'd be arguing over semantics.
Last edited by Liriena on Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

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Lithosano
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Posts: 801
Founded: Jan 06, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Lithosano » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:23 pm

Solarys wrote:
Lithosano wrote:
Yes.

No. That's not a source. Actual sources. Now.


Maybe go back to school ?


Maybe provide a source instead of dodging the question?
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Christian Democrats
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Christian Democrats » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:23 pm

Liriena wrote:
Solarys wrote:
Source for how males are generally better in females in most sports ? Really ?

Yes...and feel free to also provide a source or two showing that cisgender girls would be severely disadvantaged against transgender girls.

The standard biological differences between males and females.

https://lmddgtfy.net/?q=biological%20differences%20between%20males%20and%20females
Leo Tolstoy wrote:Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.
GA#160: Forced Marriages Ban Act (79%)
GA#175: Organ and Blood Donations Act (68%)^
SC#082: Repeal "Liberate Catholic" (80%)
GA#200: Foreign Marriage Recognition (54%)
GA#213: Privacy Protection Act (70%)
GA#231: Marital Rape Justice Act (81%)^
GA#233: Ban Profits on Workers' Deaths (80%)*
GA#249: Stopping Suicide Seeds (70%)^
GA#253: Repeal "Freedom in Medical Research" (76%)
GA#285: Assisted Suicide Act (70%)
GA#310: Disabled Voters Act (81%)
GA#373: Repeal "Convention on Execution" (54%)
GA#468: Prohibit Private Prisons (57%)^

* denotes coauthorship
^ repealed resolution
#360: Electile Dysfunction
#452: Foetal Furore
#560: Bicameral Backlash
#570: Clerical Errors

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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:24 pm

Solarys wrote:
Liriena wrote:Yes...and feel free to also provide a source or two showing that cisgender girls would be severely disadvantaged against transgender girls. No need to do the same for cis and transgender boys, since CD doesn't really seem to care about those.


If they have gone through hormone therapy, i can't say for sure. But otherwise... well other posters have already explained it for me.

Care to provide a link?

Solarys wrote:
Lithosano wrote:
Yes.

No. That's not a source. Actual sources. Now.


Maybe go back to school ?

My friend, you are not cute enough to pull that sort of antic on us. :roll:
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

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Lithosano
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Founded: Jan 06, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Lithosano » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:24 pm

Christian Democrats wrote:
Liriena wrote:Yes...and feel free to also provide a source or two showing that cisgender girls would be severely disadvantaged against transgender girls.

The standard biological differences between males and females.

https://lmddgtfy.net/?q=biological%20differences%20between%20males%20and%20females


Sources. You still have to provide them.

Provide a source that says what you're claiming.
Learn Things AND Feed the Hungry!
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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:26 pm

Christian Democrats wrote:
Liriena wrote:Yes...and feel free to also provide a source or two showing that cisgender girls would be severely disadvantaged against transgender girls.

The standard biological differences between males and females.

https://lmddgtfy.net/?q=biological%20differences%20between%20males%20and%20females

So...you send me googling and expect me to consider that a source?
Last edited by Liriena on Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

User avatar
Solarys
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Posts: 425
Founded: Aug 11, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Solarys » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:26 pm

Liriena wrote:1. Not accurate, no. A MtF transgender woman might have been a "he" once, but after recognizing herself as transgender and going through whatever process she deems necessary, there is nothing "he" about her. Not in definition, nor in practice. Nobody who is not overtly transphobic refers to MtF trans women as "he-she".


Why do we use heroine when hero does the job just fine ? If you can answer that, you can answer this too. And no matter what process they go through, i don't think they can copy the real thing completely. If we have progressed that much then i guess i haven't been up to date yet.

So unless they can make themselves indistinguishable, a transgender is neither strictly male nor female, but a transgender.

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Des-Bal
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Founded: Jan 24, 2010
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Des-Bal » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:27 pm

Nation of Fortune wrote:I'm not saying it's ok, but I am saying it happens. If people are in such dire need that they can't save $20 over two months they have bigger issues to deal with. Feeling content and happy with your body is good, but I would say above all the basics of survival are a priority. Shelter, food, water, these are necessary for life. Once these basic needs are met, then concerns as to mental health become relevant. Like I said, if someone cannot afford such a minimal time and monetary commitment they have bigger issues.


While this could become an interesting discussion on ethics it neglects that this isn't how it works. I don't see room for further discussion without first identifying what criteria would result in a students claim and or appeal accepted or denied.
Cekoviu wrote:DES-BAL: Introverted, blunt, focused, utilitarian. Hard to read; not verbose online or likely in real life. Places little emphasis on interpersonal relationships, particularly with online strangers for whom the investment would outweigh the returns.
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Mindset: Logos

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Christian Democrats
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Christian Democrats » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:28 pm

Lithosano wrote:
Christian Democrats wrote:The standard biological differences between males and females.

https://lmddgtfy.net/?q=biological%20differences%20between%20males%20and%20females

Sources. You still have to provide them.

Provide a source that says what you're claiming.

Do you really need a source to know that men are taller and heavier than women and have more muscle mass?

:palm:
Leo Tolstoy wrote:Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.
GA#160: Forced Marriages Ban Act (79%)
GA#175: Organ and Blood Donations Act (68%)^
SC#082: Repeal "Liberate Catholic" (80%)
GA#200: Foreign Marriage Recognition (54%)
GA#213: Privacy Protection Act (70%)
GA#231: Marital Rape Justice Act (81%)^
GA#233: Ban Profits on Workers' Deaths (80%)*
GA#249: Stopping Suicide Seeds (70%)^
GA#253: Repeal "Freedom in Medical Research" (76%)
GA#285: Assisted Suicide Act (70%)
GA#310: Disabled Voters Act (81%)
GA#373: Repeal "Convention on Execution" (54%)
GA#468: Prohibit Private Prisons (57%)^

* denotes coauthorship
^ repealed resolution
#360: Electile Dysfunction
#452: Foetal Furore
#560: Bicameral Backlash
#570: Clerical Errors

User avatar
Christian Democrats
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Posts: 10082
Founded: Jul 29, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby Christian Democrats » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:29 pm

Liriena wrote:
Christian Democrats wrote:The standard biological differences between males and females.

https://lmddgtfy.net/?q=biological%20differences%20between%20males%20and%20females

So...you send me googling and expect me to consider that a source?

Not Google. ;)
Leo Tolstoy wrote:Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.
GA#160: Forced Marriages Ban Act (79%)
GA#175: Organ and Blood Donations Act (68%)^
SC#082: Repeal "Liberate Catholic" (80%)
GA#200: Foreign Marriage Recognition (54%)
GA#213: Privacy Protection Act (70%)
GA#231: Marital Rape Justice Act (81%)^
GA#233: Ban Profits on Workers' Deaths (80%)*
GA#249: Stopping Suicide Seeds (70%)^
GA#253: Repeal "Freedom in Medical Research" (76%)
GA#285: Assisted Suicide Act (70%)
GA#310: Disabled Voters Act (81%)
GA#373: Repeal "Convention on Execution" (54%)
GA#468: Prohibit Private Prisons (57%)^

* denotes coauthorship
^ repealed resolution
#360: Electile Dysfunction
#452: Foetal Furore
#560: Bicameral Backlash
#570: Clerical Errors

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Solarys
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Founded: Aug 11, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Solarys » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:29 pm

Lithosano wrote:
Solarys wrote:
Maybe go back to school ?


Maybe provide a source instead of dodging the question?


Unless you have a grasp of basic biology, it won't be of much use and if you do have a grasp, even a basic one, you wouldn't be asking for a source.

Liriena wrote:
Solarys wrote:
If they have gone through hormone therapy, i can't say for sure. But otherwise... well other posters have already explained it for me.

Care to provide a link?

Solarys wrote:
Maybe go back to school ?

My friend, you are not cute enough to pull that sort of antic on us. :roll:


You are lazy to not even go through the posts in the same thread ? really ?

Also i am not going to give sources for common knowledge that even a 8th grader knows.

Also how can you know how cute i am without even seeing a picture of me ? :eyebrow:

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Lithosano
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Postby Lithosano » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:29 pm

Christian Democrats wrote:
Lithosano wrote:Sources. You still have to provide them.

Provide a source that says what you're claiming.

Do you really need a source to know that men are taller and heavier than women and have more muscle mass?

:palm:


I need a source that says men generally outperform women, or (ideally) a source that says transwomen put "natural" women at a disadvantage.
Learn Things AND Feed the Hungry!
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Free South Califas
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Ex-Nation

"The R-word"

Postby Free South Califas » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:30 pm

Sorry I'm late to this mini-controversy in thread, but as someone who has autism and other mental disabilities related to the "R-bomb", I am forced to weigh in.
?
Yes, forced. By disabling spinal pain. I address this in my reply below. For more details tg freesouthcalifas regionrelations council and I may or may not disclose my medical situation.
Liriena wrote:
KonataLand wrote:I love how you're 'standing up' for a group that has been belittled and mocked for a very long time by belittling and insulting anyone who disagrees with you, even using the r-word (which you don't give a rat's ass about, because mental deficiency isn't the FotM that you're campaigning for) to put others down.

Be constructive and civil, and people may start listening to you.

I haven't personally belittled or insulted anyone. That is against the rules in NationStates. I belittle and insult posts and the ideas behind them, not the authors. My use of the r-word was a reference to an extremely popular meme, and there was no malice or prejudice behind it.

Would you care to actually discuss this thread's topic, instead of randomly scolding a strawman?

Using the r-bomb is ableist, not to mention sick, wrong, vicious and does mental and physical harm to me. (If you want a detailed explanation of why it causes physical pain TG freesouthcalifas regionrelations council and I will answer at my leisure after medicating.) Like other slurs, it is only ever appropriate to use it in your own fiction or while quoting real people (preferably powerful ones) and in a context that clearly rejects, shames, and/or humiliates the character/senator.

Examples:
Real Life

a. You know that shitstain, Doug Manchester? Yeah, he said something stupid again: "...

b. Ugh, did you hear Doug call all of us "...

c. Someone should have steamrolled Manchester after he called his opponent "...
Original Fiction

Dougie and Sam were having the most delightful conversation. Sam couldn't help it as his thoughts turned to visions of Dougie in a different place, at a different time, with the lights turned low. Dougie blathered on and on about hotel management, and strike-breaking, and union-busting, and Sam started drifting off, just staring into his eyes. Sam snapped to full attention when Dougie said "...those retards at City Beat..."

Sam's face quickly turned to disgust. Before Dougie could react, he reared back and slapped him with all his might. "How dare you slur people with mental disabilities, sir! I am quite done with you!" Sam sprouted wings and flew away as the other park-goers started pelting Dougie with tomatoes.
Fiction 2

The young priest started to fall asleep as Doug droned on and on about his sins. Not calling his mother...keeps abusing his workers...rude to journalists...blah blah blah. It's all the same here at the La Jolla Confessionarium, now that everyone has converted to Confessionism.

Supported genocide...paid for the assassination of a foreign investigator...slapped his lover after an argument...blah, blah...wait...

"I keep calling people retards", Doug said, in full throat now, confidently displaying his evils for the priest to see so that no one else would know.

The priest kicked down the dividing wall, grabbed Doug in a half-nelson, and hurled him directly into a statue of an ancient horseman. Dusting off his priest armor, he strode confidently back toward the front door, only pausing to shout: "And don't come back, you sick fuck!"


All of this info (minus my terrible improvised writing which is now copyrighted) is freely available at Wikipedia if you really care. (OK, the spinal pain is a little obscure, so don't try searching for that because your head will explode. In my situation, I can't freely reveal the full details of that part of my medical profile in public.)

Tl;dr: This is an ethical statement, not a mod impersonation: Any slur including "the R-word" is only OK if you use it in a direct quote or in original fiction and clearly paint it as wrong and/or humiliate the character/person who used the word.
Last edited by Free South Califas on Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Liriena
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Ex-Nation

Postby Liriena » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:31 pm

Solarys wrote:
Liriena wrote:1. Not accurate, no. A MtF transgender woman might have been a "he" once, but after recognizing herself as transgender and going through whatever process she deems necessary, there is nothing "he" about her. Not in definition, nor in practice. Nobody who is not overtly transphobic refers to MtF trans women as "he-she".


1. Why do we use heroine when hero does the job just fine ?
2. If you can answer that, you can answer this too.
3. And no matter what process they go through, i don't think they can copy the real thing completely. If we have progressed that much then i guess i haven't been up to date yet.

So unless they can make themselves indistinguishable, a transgender is neither strictly male nor female, but a transgender.

1. Gender distinctions born from centuries of linguistic evolution. Nothing really practical about it, and nowadays few people still use the word "heroine" anymore.
2. Not really, since your example and its meaning are quite...vague.
3. Fortunately, transgender people don't need your own personal seal of approval. :roll: But since we are at it...what really is the difference? Those MtF trans girls that go through HRT and SRS have a vagina, breasts, little body hair if any, bodies filled with female hormones and female features...the only real difference is their lack of ovaries.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

User avatar
Simisouri
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 101
Founded: Jul 13, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Simisouri » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:31 pm

Simisouri highly supports his decision

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Simisouri
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 101
Founded: Jul 13, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Simisouri » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:32 pm

Simisouri highly supports his decision

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Solarys
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Founded: Aug 11, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Solarys » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:32 pm

Lithosano wrote:
Christian Democrats wrote:Do you really need a source to know that men are taller and heavier than women and have more muscle mass?

:palm:


I need a source that says men generally outperform women, or (ideally) a source that says transwomen put "natural" women at a disadvantage.


Is it a physical competition ? what physical qualities/traits are necessary ? then if you know the differences between men and women in physical level, you shouldn't need any source to answer.

Trans depends upon the individual and the processes they have gone through.

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Lithosano
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Posts: 801
Founded: Jan 06, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Lithosano » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:33 pm

Solarys wrote:
Lithosano wrote:
I need a source that says men generally outperform women, or (ideally) a source that says transwomen put "natural" women at a disadvantage.


Is it a physical competition ? what physical qualities/traits are necessary ? then if you know the differences between men and women in physical level, you shouldn't need any source to answer.

Trans depends upon the individual and the processes they have gone through.


You don't get to make assumptions like that without providing a source. Sources are necessary.

This is your last chance. Give even one little source.
Learn Things AND Feed the Hungry!
Pro: Social Democracy, Humanism, Equality, Roosevelt, Free science, US Dollar Coin, Renewable and Nuclear Energy
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Simisouri
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 101
Founded: Jul 13, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Simisouri » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:33 pm

Simisouri highly supports his decision

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Christian Democrats
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Posts: 10082
Founded: Jul 29, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby Christian Democrats » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:34 pm

Lithosano wrote:
Christian Democrats wrote:Do you really need a source to know that men are taller and heavier than women and have more muscle mass?

:palm:


I need a source that says men generally outperform women, or (ideally) a source that says transwomen put "natural" women at a disadvantage.

MTFs put biological women at a disadvantage in sports because they are biological men.
Leo Tolstoy wrote:Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.
GA#160: Forced Marriages Ban Act (79%)
GA#175: Organ and Blood Donations Act (68%)^
SC#082: Repeal "Liberate Catholic" (80%)
GA#200: Foreign Marriage Recognition (54%)
GA#213: Privacy Protection Act (70%)
GA#231: Marital Rape Justice Act (81%)^
GA#233: Ban Profits on Workers' Deaths (80%)*
GA#249: Stopping Suicide Seeds (70%)^
GA#253: Repeal "Freedom in Medical Research" (76%)
GA#285: Assisted Suicide Act (70%)
GA#310: Disabled Voters Act (81%)
GA#373: Repeal "Convention on Execution" (54%)
GA#468: Prohibit Private Prisons (57%)^

* denotes coauthorship
^ repealed resolution
#360: Electile Dysfunction
#452: Foetal Furore
#560: Bicameral Backlash
#570: Clerical Errors

User avatar
Lithosano
Diplomat
 
Posts: 801
Founded: Jan 06, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Lithosano » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:34 pm

Christian Democrats wrote:
Lithosano wrote:
I need a source that says men generally outperform women, or (ideally) a source that says transwomen put "natural" women at a disadvantage.

MTFs put biological women at a disadvantage in sports because they are biological men.


Source?
Learn Things AND Feed the Hungry!
Pro: Social Democracy, Humanism, Equality, Roosevelt, Free science, US Dollar Coin, Renewable and Nuclear Energy
Economic Left/Right: -6.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.77
Cosmopolitan Social Democrat
Gay Male

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