Islam/Muslim Discussion Thread

[Arkotania]

Not all Sufis belong to a "Sufi order". Really, Sufism broadly falls under an understanding of Islam that places great emphasis on the spirituality of D'een. Sufism is very, very broad and not all of it is "Shirk", even in traditional Islam; the ramblings of the Saudi Ulammah notwithstanding.

The Saudi Ulammah are men of authority and respected judges. I prefer believe them, not you.

And I prefer not to believe them. However, Sharia law states that Takfir is simply declaring a Muslim of not being a Muslim. Most cases require the authority of an Alim to put out a fatwa but that is only more for legal reasons, as in to officialy stamp the person as non-muslim. Takfir is the declaration however, and a declaration is defined as an explicity and formal announcement. "I think they shouldn't be considered Muslims" is not an announcement, "They shouldn't be considered Muslim" is an announcement since you are not stating it as a personal belief but an overall belief.

Its all vocabulary and grammar. You don't need a judge to tell whats wrong or right(Sharia will take care of that), the judge only decides how to punish(such as declaring a fatwa).

[Great Islamic Empire]

Its all vocabulary and grammar. You don't need a judge to tell whats wrong or right(Sharia will take care of that), the judge only decides how to punish(such as declaring a fatwa).

Fatwas are not necessarily condemnations.

[EnragedMaldivians]

Not all Sufis belong to a "Sufi order". Really, Sufism broadly falls under an understanding of Islam that places great emphasis on the spirituality of D'een. Sufism is very, very broad and not all of it is "Shirk", even in traditional Islam; the ramblings of the Saudi Ulammah notwithstanding.

The Saudi Ulammah are men of authority and respected judges. I prefer believe them, not you.

Even granting, just for the heck of it, that belonging to a Sufi order makes one a non-Muslim, not all Sufis belong to Sufi orders and Sufism is a very broad category, the ramblings of "the men of authority and respected judges" (Subhaanallah! I never suggested that they were otherwise) that comprise the Saudi Ulammah" notwithstanding.

Your link was talking mostly about Sufi orders, so my post was just fairly non controversial, straightforward observations.

Personally I don't care who you consider a Muslim or not. I've already stated that I am a Murtad, so it's not like I'm trying to force anyone else to stay Muslim or trying to force you to accept that so and so are Muslims, if you don't want to.

But for the benefit of interested readers, I can't have you go around claiming things such as that Sufis are not Muslims or that Qur'anists are Kharijites (!?) and various assortments of other idiotic claims, without at least offering a rebuttal from another perspective.

But don't worry. You have the esteemed men of the Saudi Ulammah on your side.

[Great Islamic Empire]

The Saudi Ulammah are men of authority and respected judges. I prefer believe them, not you.

Even granting, just for the heck of it, that belonging to a Sufi order makes one a non-Muslim, not all Sufis belong to Sufi orders and Sufism is a very broad category, the ramblings of "the men of authority and respected judges" (Subhaanallah! I never suggested that they were otherwise) that comprise the Saudi Ulammah" notwithstanding.

Your link was talking mostly about Sufi orders, so my post was just fairly non controversial, straightforward observations.

Personally I don't care who you consider a Muslim or not. I've already stated that I am a Murtad, so it's not like I'm trying to force anyone else to stay Muslim or trying to force you to accept that so and so are Muslims, if you don't want to.

But for the benefit of interested readers, I can't have you go around claiming things such as that Sufis are not Muslims or that Qur'anists are Kharijites (!?) and various assortments of other idiotic claims, without at least offering a rebuttal from another perspective.

Oh, don't worry, if you are an apostate you don't need to rebut anything, religion doesn't matter for you.

And for your information, you didn't rebut anything.

That's all I have to say. Goodbye.

[EnragedMaldivians]

Even granting, just for the heck of it, that belonging to a Sufi order makes one a non-Muslim, not all Sufis belong to Sufi orders and Sufism is a very broad category, the ramblings of "the men of authority and respected judges" (Subhaanallah! I never suggested that they were otherwise) that comprise the Saudi Ulammah" notwithstanding.

Your link was talking mostly about Sufi orders, so my post was just fairly non controversial, straightforward observations.

Personally I don't care who you consider a Muslim or not. I've already stated that I am a Murtad, so it's not like I'm trying to force anyone else to stay Muslim or trying to force you to accept that so and so are Muslims, if you don't want to.

But for the benefit of interested readers, I can't have you go around claiming things such as that Sufis are not Muslims or that Qur'anists are Kharijites (!?) and various assortments of other idiotic claims, without at least offering a rebuttal from another perspective.

Oh, don't worry, if you are an apostate you don't need to rebut anything, religion doesn't matter for you.

And for your information, you didn't rebut anything.

That's all I have to say. Goodbye.

Sure it does. I can be interested in whatever I want.

Whether you believe my rebuttals to be valid is not really my concern. It's not like the opinions of one who's never even heard of Qur'anites (and declared them Kharijtes no less) and doesn't know something so basic as that it's a sin for a Muslim to declare another Muslim a non-Muslim, should be taken all that seriously to begin with. But in case anyone else did, I thought I might chip in.

Awww. I was enjoying this conversation. Goodbye then.

[Great Islamic Empire]

Whether you believe my rebuttals to be valid is not really my concern. It's not like the opinions of one who's never even heard of Qur'anites (and declared them Kharijtes no less) and doesn't know something so basic as that it's a sin for a Muslim to declare another Muslim a non-Muslim, should be taken all that seriously to begin with. But in case anyone else did, I thought I might chip in.

I have news for you: Wikipedia definitions are not necessarily islamically correct.

[EnragedMaldivians]

Whether you believe my rebuttals to be valid is not really my concern. It's not like the opinions of one who's never even heard of Qur'anites (and declared them Kharijtes no less) and doesn't know something so basic as that it's a sin for a Muslim to declare another Muslim a non-Muslim, should be taken all that seriously to begin with. But in case anyone else did, I thought I might chip in.

I have news for you: Wikipedia definitions are not necessarily islamically correct.

I have news for you. I am not using it as an academic source. Again, that was for the benefit of someone who might be interested...and for that Wikipedia does fine as an easy reference general knowledge source.

A Qur'anist is a Muslim who believes that the Qur'an is the only relevant text to Islam. Wikipedia does a well enough job of explaining what it is. The Kharijite movement had and has nothing to do with them. Are you going to dispute this?

Perhaps you could link us to what the esteemed men of the Saudi Ulammah have to say.

[Arkotania]

Whether you believe my rebuttals to be valid is not really my concern. It's not like the opinions of one who's never even heard of Qur'anites (and declared them Kharijtes no less) and doesn't know something so basic as that it's a sin for a Muslim to declare another Muslim a non-Muslim, should be taken all that seriously to begin with. But in case anyone else did, I thought I might chip in.

I have news for you: Wikipedia definitions are not necessarily islamically correct.

Though less biased then a saudi who could be considered more radical in his beliefs and translations.

[Great Islamic Empire]

A Qur'anist is a Muslim who believes that the Qur'an is the only relevant text to Islam. Wikipedia does a well enough job of explaining what it is. The Kharijite movement had and has nothing to do with them. Are you going to dispute this?

Although I'm conscious that an apostate like you have not the sufficient mental capacity to understand it, I'm going to explain this for you: THOSE WHO REFUSE ANY EXTERNAL RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY WERE, ARE AND WILL REMAIN KHARIJITES even if Wikipedia gives the fucking definition of "Quranists" that was never used by any islamic official historical source.

It's the same heretical shit.

[EnragedMaldivians]

I have news for you: Wikipedia definitions are not necessarily islamically correct.

Though less biased then a saudi who could be considered more radical in his beliefs and translations.

How dare you mock the Saudi Ulammah! Even the drool from their demented rantings is holier than the holiest of zam zam water.

[Arkotania]

A Qur'anist is a Muslim who believes that the Qur'an is the only relevant text to Islam. Wikipedia does a well enough job of explaining what it is. The Kharijite movement had and has nothing to do with them. Are you going to dispute this?

Although I'm conscious that an apostate like you have not the sufficient mental capacity to understand it, I'm going to explain this for you: THOSE WHO REFUSE ANY EXTERNAL RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY WERE, ARE AND WILL REMAIN KHARIJITES even if Wikipedia gives the fucking definition of "Quranists" that was never used by any islamic official historical source.

It's the same heretical shit.

And that could be considered an opinion not everyone needs to believe. You are Muslim I presume? Is it right to believe yourself superior to another like that? tsk tsk.

[EnragedMaldivians]

A Qur'anist is a Muslim who believes that the Qur'an is the only relevant text to Islam. Wikipedia does a well enough job of explaining what it is. The Kharijite movement had and has nothing to do with them. Are you going to dispute this?

Although I'm conscious that an apostate like you have not the sufficient mental capacity to understand it, I'm going to explain this for you: THOSE WHO REFUSE ANY EXTERNAL RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY WERE, ARE AND WILL REMAIN KHARIJITES even if Wikipedia gives the fucking definition of "Quranists" that was never used by any islamic official historical source.

Now, now, no need to get angry.

The problem with your silly definition is that Kharijites are not in all circumstances opposed to any external authority; they were perfectly willing to even accept a Caliph to rule over them. Just because they're more willing to rebel if they believe that, for instance, a Caliph is not Islamic enough in his behaviour and rule, theoretically they are not opposed to the concept of a Khalifa.

A Qur'anist is only defined by the fact that s/he only accepts the Qur'an as a relevant text in Islam.

But it's funny you have such strong opinions on this, despite the fact that you had never even heard of them until today.

[Czechanada]

Whether you believe my rebuttals to be valid is not really my concern. It's not like the opinions of one who's never even heard of Qur'anites (and declared them Kharijtes no less) and doesn't know something so basic as that it's a sin for a Muslim to declare another Muslim a non-Muslim, should be taken all that seriously to begin with. But in case anyone else did, I thought I might chip in.

I have news for you: Wikipedia definitions are not necessarily islamically correct.

And here I thought the internet was haram.

[Virana]

I have news for you: Wikipedia definitions are not necessarily islamically correct.

At least most of them can cite a credible source unlike another guy seemingly making up his own definitions without any sort of support.

[Arkotania]

I have news for you: Wikipedia definitions are not necessarily islamically correct.

At least most of them can cite a credible source unlike another guy seemingly making up his own definitions without any sort of support.

Other than "Because I know better than you".

[Azurand]

A Qur'anist is a Muslim who believes that the Qur'an is the only relevant text to Islam. Wikipedia does a well enough job of explaining what it is. The Kharijite movement had and has nothing to do with them. Are you going to dispute this?

Although I'm conscious that an apostate like you have not the sufficient mental capacity to understand it, I'm going to explain this for you: THOSE WHO REFUSE ANY EXTERNAL RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY WERE, ARE AND WILL REMAIN KHARIJITES.

Whoa, whoa, calm down for a moment, Brother. Don't get angry only because that heretic, narrow-minded apostate!

Kharijites and Qur'anists are, well, ideologically different. As long as a Caliph have the same thought, or, coming from their group, they would accept it, but if not, they wouldn't. While the Qur'anists only believe the Qur'an as the relevant source text of Islam, and refuse to acknowledged any hadith. Far difference, actually. Not mean that I like both.

[Azurand]

I have news for you: Wikipedia definitions are not necessarily islamically correct.

And here I thought the internet was haram.

Hear, hear! A new fatwa from the Grand Mufti! Accept it or thou art heretic!

[EnragedMaldivians]

Although I'm conscious that an apostate like you have not the sufficient mental capacity to understand it, I'm going to explain this for you: THOSE WHO REFUSE ANY EXTERNAL RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY WERE, ARE AND WILL REMAIN KHARIJITES.

Whoa, whoa, calm down for a moment, Brother. Don't get angry only because that heretic, narrow-minded apostate!

Kharijites and Qur'anists are, well, ideologically different. As long as a Caliph have the same thought, or, coming from their group, they would accept it, but if not, they wouldn't. While the Qur'anists only believe the Qur'an as the relevant source text of Islam, and refuse to acknowledged any hadith. Far difference, actually. Not mean that I like both.

That's pretty much what I said. Kharijites rebelled against Khalifa Ali bin Talib not because they disagreed with the institution of the Caliph but because Ali was acting un-Islamically because he seemed too willing to come to terms with the rebel Mua'wiyya (who would later go on to become the first Caliph of the Umayyad dynasty), even if it was only a temporary expedient. But in principle they were not against the institution of a Caliphate (it's just that, to iterate, they no longer accepted the Caliphate of Ali and felt justified in rebelling against a ruler not properly upholding or defending Islam).

So our good friend Great Islamic Empire's ridiculous claim that the Quranists are Kharijites, on the basis that Kharijites reject external religious authority, is factually incorrect. Thank you for taking the time to educate your somewhat more irritable brother.

Also, just call me "narrow-minded apostate". Adding heretical is a bit verbose, and inaccurate don't you think? I don't mind either way if you insist though, and I'm not offended. In fact, I quite like you; you're more fun.

[Menassa]

Now I know how people feel when I talk in my Anglo-Hebr-Aramaic Jargon.

[Aryavartha]

I see a lot of pressure to conform in muslim families I have observed. It starts from childhood. Do this, do that, don't do this etc.

I would have gone nuts. I wonder if a lot of people are actually going along with it to avoid confrontations etc.

[Azurand]

Also, just call me "narrow-minded apostate". Adding heretical is a bit verbose, and inaccurate don't you think? I don't mind either way if you insist though, and I'm not offended. In fact, I quite like you; you're more fun.

Heh, never mind, I'm just kidding. A little dark humor is needed to please everyone.

[Azurand]

I see a lot of pressure to conform in muslim families I have observed. It starts from childhood. Do this, do that, don't do this etc.

I would have gone nuts. I wonder if a lot of people are actually going along with it to avoid confrontations etc.

My parents don't. At least, I don't get oppressed or something. Don't get me wrong, my parents are quite devout. And look! I'm still sane until now.

Am I?

[Kalmarium]

I see a lot of pressure to conform in muslim families I have observed. It starts from childhood. Do this, do that, don't do this etc.

I would have gone nuts. I wonder if a lot of people are actually going along with it to avoid confrontations etc.

Not exactly, just the mentality of Arab families. My dad is a perfect example.

[Azurand]

Nothing want to share idea here? C'mon, Ummah! Do you have the excellent plan to fullfill Allah's Command of our World Domination? We've destined for that! Do we have the advanced technology to brainwashed the entire NSG, to be the ignorant, obedient soldiers of Imam Mahdi?

[Nazis in Space]

Nothing want to share idea here? C'mon, Ummah! Do you have the excellent plan to fullfill Allah's Command of our World Domination?

Betcha it involves the use of airpower.