Islam/Muslim Discussion Thread

[Great Islamic Empire]

I think Quranists are a particular type of Kharigites.

[EnragedMaldivians]

There are many errors in the list of the options to vote. First of all, the Sunni Islam includes many madhhabs, and this list doesn't include any madhhab, but only sub-madhhab groups.

For example, the Ibadi Group is a Sunni group. If one is Ibadi, is also Sunni. So the Sunni and Ibadi options shouldn't be separated, because the latter is a group of the first one.

Also, Salafi and Wahhabi are sub-madhhabs of the madhhab Hanbali. The madhhab Hanbali is Sunni. So there is the same error of the Sunni-Ibadi misconception. If one is Hanbali is also Sunni.
It's not possible to say "I am Hanbali/Ibadi but I'm not Sunni", it would be an oxymoron.

Moreover, the Sufi Question is difficult to approach. Many muslims does not consider Sufis as muslims, and Sufism is neither Shiite nor Sunni. This option shouldn't be there among the options, it confuses more the situation.

Finally, what do you mean with "Quranists". I never heard about a maddhab, sub-madhhab or heretical group called "Quranist", and I don't even think that it exists.

What kind of poll is this? Apotheosis of confusion!

This has been covered many times already; yes the options are flawed. But anyway:

Sufism is not a sect on its own but you do not get to declare Takfir on Sufis. They're Muslims whether you like it or not.

Qur'anists are those who think that the Qur'an is the only relevant text in Islam; to them Sunnahs/Hadiths/Whatever else are irrelevant.

Salaafis are not necessarily followers of the Hanbali Madh'ab or of any Madh'ab; they are reactionaries who want today's society to emulate the society of the "Ummah" as it was during the time of the Prophet and the Rashidun Khalifas, as much as possible. Many of them follow the Hanbali Madh'ab, which is the strictest of all the Madh'abs but it is not always the case that they do.

Ibadis are not Sunnis. They are a distinct sect that go back to the Kharijite movement, which consisted of supporters of Ali during the Sunni, Shiite schism that occurred during his rule, who later revolted against him on the basis that he had deviated from Islam (unlike the Shiites, the Kharijites did not believe that leadership of the Ummah had to be from the Prophet's direct lineage).

I think Quranists are a particular type of Kharigites.

[Great Islamic Empire]

Ibadis are not Sunnis. They are a distinct sect that go back to the Kharijite movement, which consisted of supporters of Ali during the Sunni, Shiite occurred, who later revolted against him on the basis that he had deviated from Islam (unlike the Shiites, the Kharijites did not believe that leadership of the Ummah had to fall on members of the Prophet's family or tribe).

At the present, Ibadis do not consider themselves as kharijites. Now their only kharijite element is a bit different invocation of the Salah. For the rest, their are completely Sunni, because they completely lost the kharijite ideology.

[Great Islamic Empire]

Sufism is not a sect on its own but you do not get to declare Takfir on Sufis. They're Muslims whether you like it or not.

They pretend to make a contact with the divinity using drugs and listening music and dancing. Some of them even consume alcol.

No, they definitely are not muslims.

[EnragedMaldivians]

Ibadis are not Sunnis. They are a distinct sect that go back to the Kharijite movement, which consisted of supporters of Ali during the Sunni, Shiite occurred, who later revolted against him on the basis that he had deviated from Islam (unlike the Shiites, the Kharijites did not believe that leadership of the Ummah had to fall on members of the Prophet's family or tribe).

At the present, Ibadis do not consider themselves as kharijites. Now their only kharijite element is a bit different invocation of the Salah. For the rest, their are completely Sunni, because they completely lost the kharijite ideology.

I didn't say they remain Kharijites, but that their history goes back to the Kharijites. Anyway, I don't think they even consider themselves Sunnis.

Shame we don't have an Ibadi on here to clarify (votes on the poll notwithstanding).

Sufism is not a sect on its own but you do not get to declare Takfir on Sufis. They're Muslims whether you like it or not.

They pretend to make a contact with the divinity using drugs and listening music and dancing. Some of them even consume alcol.

No, they definitely are not muslims.

There are many Sufis who do not do those things. Again Sufism is not a sect on its own; there are no central beliefs to Sufism. Some of them are even as conservative and reactionary as you seem to be (no music....lol). Takfir is haram by the way.

Besides, I know plenty of Sunnis who dance and drink alcohol. That doesn't mean that drinking is allowed in Sunni Islam.

[Arkotania]

From what I've understood, a Muslim can not claim another is not a Muslim without definitive proof of such an accusation. It's also harder to accuse an entire group of not being Muslim due to the actions of just a few. Do you mean to imply that all Sufis are not Muslims are because some take drugs,dance and drink?

Even Muslims who do those things are sinning Muslims. What I understand is that calling someone "not muslim" is worse then calling them a "sinning muslim"

[Great Islamic Empire]

Takfir is haram by the way.

I didn't do any Takfir. But takfir is not haram. Which madhab says it?

I am Hanbali, and the noble Imam Ahmad said that takfir is possible only in these cases: drinking alcol, abandon of the Salah and the apostasy.

Besides, I know plenty of Sunnis who dance and drink alcohol

There are also many supposed christians who actually are not christians.

Being muslim means to serve Allah and follow His sayings. If Allah prohibits to drink alcol and a supposed muslim drinks alcol, he must not me considered a muslim. It's clear.

Religion is not a joke, neither a game. Is something serious.

[Arkotania]

Takfir is haram by the way.

I didn't do any Takfir. But takfir is not haram. Which madhab says it?

I am Hanbali, and the noble Imam Ahmad said that takfir is possible only in these cases: drinking alcol, abandon of the Salah and the apostasy.

Besides, I know plenty of Sunnis who dance and drink alcohol

There are also many supposed christians who actually are not christians.

Takfir means, in Islamic law, declaring a Muslim as being an unbeliever.

[Great Islamic Empire]

Takfir means, in Islamic law, declaring a Muslim as being an unbeliever.

Yes, a sort of "Excommunication" for the catholic christians.

[EnragedMaldivians]

From what I've understood, a Muslim can not claim another is not a Muslim without definitive proof of such an accusation. It's also harder to accuse an entire group of not being Muslim due to the actions of just a few. Do you mean to imply that all Sufis are not Muslims are because some take drugs,dance and drink?

Even Muslims who do those things are sinning Muslims. What I understand is that calling someone "not muslim" is worse then calling them a "sinning muslim"

He can claim I'm not a Muslim without any repercussions...since I've already stated I'm not a Muslim (I'm an apostate/Murtad). No problem.

He can't claim that an entire group of people who describe themselves as Muslim are non-Muslim without that being a major sin, at least in the eyes of traditional Islam. He can at most say that Sufism is dangerous because it can lead to heresy.

Takfir is haram by the way.

I didn't do any Takfir. But takfir is not haram. Which madhab says it?

I am Hanbali, and the noble Imam Ahmad said that takfir is possible only in these cases: drinking alcol, abandon of the Salah and the apostasy.

Besides, I know plenty of Sunnis who dance and drink alcohol

There are also many supposed christians who actually are not christians.

1) Takfir without proof, sorry. Anyway, yes you did. You just effectively declared all Sufis to be non-Muslims when you have no proof that all Sufis drink alcohol for instance.

2) The point is, people who call themselves Sunnis may engage in drinking without it meaning that drinking is not haram in Sunni Islam. Plenty of Sufis stick to the traditional view that drinking is totally forbidden.

[Arkotania]

If they drink and know its a sin, you can't call them disbelievers because their just sinning. If they drink and say its not haram, then they'd be disbelievers because they're not believing that what is Haram is actually haram.

A sinner can't always be considered a disbeliever, since he probably knows what he is doing is wrong yet does it anyway whereas a disbeliever doesn't believe he is doing wrong because he doesn't believe it is wrong.

[Great Islamic Empire]

1) Takfir without proof, sorry. Anyway, yes you did. You just effectively declared all Sufis to be non-Muslims when you have no proof that all Sufis drink alcohol for instance.

I cannot do a Takfir because I have not the authority necessary to do it. I only expressed a personal opinion.

[Great Islamic Empire]

If they drink and know its a sin, you can't call them disbelievers because their just sinning. If they drink and say its not haram, then they'd be disbelievers because they're not believing that what is Haram is actually haram.

A sinner can't always be considered a disbeliever, since he probably knows what he is doing is wrong yet does it anyway whereas a disbeliever doesn't believe he is doing wrong because he doesn't believe it is wrong.

When I called them disbelievers? I only said that they must not be considered muslims.

[Virana]

If they drink and know its a sin, you can't call them disbelievers because their just sinning. If they drink and say its not haram, then they'd be disbelievers because they're not believing that what is Haram is actually haram.

A sinner can't always be considered a disbeliever, since he probably knows what he is doing is wrong yet does it anyway whereas a disbeliever doesn't believe he is doing wrong because he doesn't believe it is wrong.

When I called them disbelievers? I only said that they must not be considered muslims.

Saying they must not be considered Muslims? Isnt that Takfir? The same thing you're maintaining that you're not doing?

Disbelieving and sinning are two completely different things. Disbelieving may be considered a sin, but sinning does not suddenly make you a non-Muslim.

[EnragedMaldivians]

1) Takfir without proof, sorry. Anyway, yes you did. You just effectively declared all Sufis to be non-Muslims when you have no proof that all Sufis drink alcohol for instance.

I cannot do a Takfir because I have not the authority necessary to do it. I only expressed a personal opinion.

Takfir is when another Muslim declares that another Muslim is not a Muslim; it's that simple. You may not have the authority to make such declarations an official one...but even still, you expressing that personal opinion is Takfir and that, especially without any proof, is a sin. You cannot simply declare that all Sufis are not Muslim. That kind of Takfir is understood to be something that causes fitna.

[Great Islamic Empire]

Saying they must not be considered Muslims? Isnt that Takfir? The same thing you're maintaining that you're not doing?

Takfir is a formal juridical act that excludes someone from the Muslim Community. I'm not a judge, but if a judge knows that a muslim sinned, the judge must use Takfir against him.

Disbelieving and sinning are two completely different things. Disbelieving may be considered a sin, but sinning does not suddenly make you a non-Muslim.

Takfir doesn't make someone a disbeliever, simply declares him non-muslim.

[Great Islamic Empire]

Takfir is when another Muslim declares that another Muslim is not a Muslim; it's that simple. You may not have the authority to make such declarations an official one...but even still, you expressing that personal opinion is Takfir and that, especially without any proof, is a sin. You cannot simply declare that all Sufis are not Muslim. That kind of Takfir is understood to be something that causes fitna.

A TAKFIR IS NOT A PERSONAL OPINION.

[EnragedMaldivians]

Saying they must not be considered Muslims? Isnt that Takfir? The same thing you're maintaining that you're not doing?

Takfir is a formal juridical act that excludes someone from the Muslim Community. I'm not a judge, but if a judge knows that a muslim sinned, the judge must use Takfir against him.

Disbelieving and sinning are two completely different things. Disbelieving may be considered a sin, but sinning does not suddenly make you a non-Muslim.

Takfir doesn't make someone a disbeliever, simply declares him non-muslim.

You cannot officially declare Takfir no, and your Takfir has no force behind it as far as the Shariah is concerned...nonetheless, what you are doing is declaring Takfir, and that is a sin.

[Great Islamic Empire]

You cannot officially declare Takfir no, and your Takfir has no force behind it as far as the Shariah is concerned...nonetheless, what you are doing is declaring Takfir, and that is a sin.

Why is a sin?

[EnragedMaldivians]

Takfir is when another Muslim declares that another Muslim is not a Muslim; it's that simple. You may not have the authority to make such declarations an official one...but even still, you expressing that personal opinion is Takfir and that, especially without any proof, is a sin. You cannot simply declare that all Sufis are not Muslim. That kind of Takfir is understood to be something that causes fitna.

A TAKFIR IS NOT A PERSONAL OPINION.

You seem to be confused.

Only certain individuals formally vested with the powers to declare Takfir may, under certain circumstances, declare Takfir. Those individuals would be Islamic judges who have enough evidence to deem that so and so is not really a Muslim anymore. When they do it, it is not a sin.

You saying that a broad group of people such as Sufis are not Muslims is effectively you declaring Takfir when you have no authority to do so and no evidence to base it on. When you do it, it is a sin.

We understand that your opinion is irrelevant. We are just informing you that you expressing it is considered to be a sin, and furthermore, is considered to be Fitna, in Islam.

[EnragedMaldivians]

You cannot officially declare Takfir no, and your Takfir has no force behind it as far as the Shariah is concerned...nonetheless, what you are doing is declaring Takfir, and that is a sin.

Why is a sin?

"No man accuses another man of being a sinner, or of being a kafir, but it reflects back on him if the other is not as he called him.'' (Bukhari, Book of Ethics; Book 78, ch. 44)

Oh dear.

[Great Islamic Empire]

You saying that a broad group of people such as Sufis are not Muslims is effectively you declaring Takfir when you have no evidence to do so. When you do it, it is a sin.

I mean, only the Sufis that I knew were sinful.

[Great Islamic Empire]

Moreover:

http://www.google.it/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=& ... 78UiWYkjPw

[EnragedMaldivians]

Moreover:

http://www.google.it/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=& ... 78UiWYkjPw

Not all Sufis belong to a "Sufi order". Really, Sufism broadly falls under an understanding of Islam that places great emphasis on the spirituality of D'een. Sufism is very, very broad and not all of it is "Shirk", even in traditional Islam; the ramblings of the Saudi Ulammah notwithstanding.

[Great Islamic Empire]

Moreover:

http://www.google.it/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=& ... 78UiWYkjPw

Not all Sufis belong to a "Sufi order". Really, Sufism broadly falls under an understanding of Islam that places great emphasis on the spirituality of D'een. Sufism is very, very broad and not all of it is "Shirk", even in traditional Islam; the ramblings of the Saudi Ulammah notwithstanding.

The Saudi Ulammah are men of authority and respected judges. I prefer believe them, not you.