Islam/Muslim Discussion Thread

[The Black Forrest]

الله أَكْبَر الله أَكْبَر الله أَكْبَر الله أَكْبَر
infadels must convert or die!

Very un-muslim of you.

[Coccygia]

الله أَكْبَر الله أَكْبَر الله أَكْبَر الله أَكْبَر
infadels must convert or die!

Very un-muslim of you.

Very muslim actually. Quite according to tradition, all the way back to Muhammad himself.

[Allentyr]

Hello everyone, I'm Malaysian but not a Muslim. Recently there have been several Islam-related happenings that are quite odd.

I'm sure you all heard about the Allah ruling? If no I'll just explain briefly here. Basically, Malay Language Bibles that were meant for Sarawakian Christians (Borneo) used the word "Allah" for God. It provoked an uproar over in the Peninsular with various Muslim groups claiming that Allah can only be used by Muslims. After a high profile legal tussle, the Courts upheld the claim that only Muslims could use Allah, as the Christians apparently do not have a good reason to do so. It gets more complicated with the fact that the ruling only applies in the Peninsular, and the former Chief Minister of Sarawak (a Muslim) although being part of the rulimng coalition, has given Sarawakian Christians his guarantee that the bibles can still be used.

Another incident was where an Indian (Hindu) mother lost custody of her children to her Husband who suddenly converted their children and himself to Islam without the mother's consent. He then obtained a Syariah Court ruling that granted him custody of the kids.

In Malaysia, we have 2 separate legal systems. The Civil Courts and the Syariah Court that only deals with Muslim cases. The problems with having 2 separate legal systems became apparent when the mother obtained a Civil Court ruling that granted her custody of the two children, and immediately after the husband snatched their son away,and the police refused to investigate as they claim they have their hands tied. On one hand, the Syariah court did grant the husband custody, while the Civil Courts granted the mother custody, 2 conflicting rulings.

What do you all think about this? I'm just interested in hearing your opinions about this.

You guys need secularism and egalitarianism. As everybody else on the planet.

Just full stop.

Danke Hetrio. I'm gonna leave when I can and I'll be happy..
Whatever crazy idea you have, I would be on board!

[Benuty]

On that same note, how often do you, Islamic members of NS, have to consult the Hadith?

None.

The most "reliable" Hadiths (as considered by Islamic scholars) were primarily compiled centuries after the Prophet's death through oral reports. Everyone's played the "say something and pass it on" game, and you know how much the words change by the time it reaches the end.

That's why I'm a Quranist.

Hmm..a textualists glad to see I am not alone.

[Benuty]

Very un-muslim of you.

Very muslim actually. Quite according to tradition, all the way back to Muhammad himself.

Yet there have been Caliph descendants who have promoted and enforced peace rather than that attitude. Not to mention I could argue on about the various Emirs, Sultans, and scholars or so forth but would it really get us anywhere?

[Benuty]

Hello everyone, I'm Malaysian but not a Muslim. Recently there have been several Islam-related happenings that are quite odd.

I'm sure you all heard about the Allah ruling? If no I'll just explain briefly here. Basically, Malay Language Bibles that were meant for Sarawakian Christians (Borneo) used the word "Allah" for God. It provoked an uproar over in the Peninsular with various Muslim groups claiming that Allah can only be used by Muslims. After a high profile legal tussle, the Courts upheld the claim that only Muslims could use Allah, as the Christians apparently do not have a good reason to do so. It gets more complicated with the fact that the ruling only applies in the Peninsular, and the former Chief Minister of Sarawak (a Muslim) although being part of the rulimng coalition, has given Sarawakian Christians his guarantee that the bibles can still be used.

Another incident was where an Indian (Hindu) mother lost custody of her children to her Husband who suddenly converted their children and himself to Islam without the mother's consent. He then obtained a Syariah Court ruling that granted him custody of the kids.

In Malaysia, we have 2 separate legal systems. The Civil Courts and the Syariah Court that only deals with Muslim cases. The problems with having 2 separate legal systems became apparent when the mother obtained a Civil Court ruling that granted her custody of the two children, and immediately after the husband snatched their son away,and the police refused to investigate as they claim they have their hands tied. On one hand, the Syariah court did grant the husband custody, while the Civil Courts granted the mother custody, 2 conflicting rulings.

What do you all think about this? I'm just interested in hearing your opinions about this.

You guys need secularism and egalitarianism. As everybody else on the planet.

Just full stop.

Define secularism, do you mean "you will have this shove down your throat without your say because you are savages!" or do you mean tolerable government secularization and the gradual secularization of certain aspects of society?

[Allentyr]

You guys need secularism and egalitarianism. As everybody else on the planet.

Just full stop.

Define secularism, do you mean "you will have this shove down your throat without your say because you are savages!" or do you mean tolerable government secularization and the gradual secularization of certain aspects of society?

I would prefer the second, honestly.

[Benuty]

Define secularism, do you mean "you will have this shove down your throat without your say because you are savages!" or do you mean tolerable government secularization and the gradual secularization of certain aspects of society?

I would prefer the second, honestly.

Given the second one is more based on realistic expectations than the other I do not blame you. No one can fully secularize society [several nations tried and failed to do so as the aspects they tried to secularize continued in secret or were openly rebellious against them]. People are free to continue believing in full on secularism but at their own risk. I mean it isn't like I want to get on that runaway train of a mind they have .

[Coccygia]

Very muslim actually. Quite according to tradition, all the way back to Muhammad himself.

Yet there have been Caliph descendants who have promoted and enforced peace rather than that attitude. Not to mention I could argue on about the various Emirs, Sultans, and scholars or so forth but would it really get us anywhere?

Since that's just "No true Scotsman" all over again, I doubt it. Really, what about all the Caliphs, Emirs, Sultans, and scholars who aggressively promoted war (including you-know-who himself)? I hope you're not going to try to tell me "Islam is a religion of peace" because it is even less a religion of peace than Christianity. It was founded in war and spread by war. At least Jesus was a man of peace. Muhammad was a warlord, a bandit, and a ruthless, even genocidal, tyrant (as he showed in Medina).

BTW I could also mention all the references to Fighting the Unbelievers in the Quran itself.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Very un-muslim of you.

Very muslim actually. Quite according to tradition, all the way back to Muhammad himself.

No.

[Saiwania]

Now Coccygia knows what they're talking about, Islam has never been about peace. What matters to Muslims is their submission to God.

[Divair2]

الله أَكْبَر الله أَكْبَر الله أَكْبَر الله أَكْبَر
infadels must convert or die!

I'll pick "die".

[Czechanada]

Very un-muslim of you.

Very muslim actually. Quite according to tradition, all the way back to Muhammad himself.

Technically, during the Rashidun, Umayyad, Abbasid caliphates, and Ottoman Empire*, it was more like: "Convert or pay a much higher tax!"

*I think even in the Fatimid Caliphate, but I'm too lazy to pick up the copy of Shainool's Jiwa's history of it from my bookshelf.

No.

Are you sure?

الله أَكْبَر الله أَكْبَر الله أَكْبَر الله أَكْبَر
infadels must convert or die!

I'll pick "die".

It's never a good idea to throw your life away for ideology.

[Czechanada]

Very muslim actually. Quite according to tradition, all the way back to Muhammad himself.

Yet there have been Caliph descendants who have promoted and enforced peace rather than that attitude. Not to mention I could argue on about the various Emirs, Sultans, and scholars or so forth but would it really get us anywhere?

The Byzantine and Sassanid Empires disagree.

[Benuty]

Yet there have been Caliph descendants who have promoted and enforced peace rather than that attitude. Not to mention I could argue on about the various Emirs, Sultans, and scholars or so forth but would it really get us anywhere?

The Byzantine and Sassanid Empires disagree.

Given the Sassanids were out of the picture by the Caliphs of Baghdad it matters not.

[Arabic Spain]

Very un-muslim of you.

Very muslim actually. Quite according to tradition, all the way back to Muhammad himself.

Nope Islam nor Muhammad(PBUH) never done that.

[Saracenia]

Very muslim actually. Quite according to tradition, all the way back to Muhammad himself.

Oh well whatever if you're going to judge one's Islam's validity from 6 AD's standard, what makes you any different to a raving Muslim fundamentalist?

[Libercatia]

You guys need secularism and egalitarianism. As everybody else on the planet.

Just full stop.

Define secularism, do you mean "you will have this shove down your throat without your say because you are savages!" or do you mean tolerable government secularization and the gradual secularization of certain aspects of society?

I think he/she just means no religious input in government decisions, kind of like Turkey.

[Libercatia]

Very muslim actually. Quite according to tradition, all the way back to Muhammad himself.

Nope Islam nor Muhammad(PBUH) never done that.

Define Islam in this situation.

[Saracenia]

I think he/she just means no religion in government decisions, kind of like Turkey.

I'm fully in endorsement of religions to be out of the state. I'm not in endorsement of religions to be out of public however, especially through coercive means enforced by fascist state apparatchiks.

[Senyosu]

Hello everyone, I'm Malaysian but not a Muslim. Recently there have been several Islam-related happenings that are quite odd.

I'm sure you all heard about the Allah ruling? If no I'll just explain briefly here. Basically, Malay Language Bibles that were meant for Sarawakian Christians (Borneo) used the word "Allah" for God. It provoked an uproar over in the Peninsular with various Muslim groups claiming that Allah can only be used by Muslims. After a high profile legal tussle, the Courts upheld the claim that only Muslims could use Allah, as the Christians apparently do not have a good reason to do so. It gets more complicated with the fact that the ruling only applies in the Peninsular, and the former Chief Minister of Sarawak (a Muslim) although being part of the rulimng coalition, has given Sarawakian Christians his guarantee that the bibles can still be used.

Another incident was where an Indian (Hindu) mother lost custody of her children to her Husband who suddenly converted their children and himself to Islam without the mother's consent. He then obtained a Syariah Court ruling that granted him custody of the kids.

In Malaysia, we have 2 separate legal systems. The Civil Courts and the Syariah Court that only deals with Muslim cases. The problems with having 2 separate legal systems became apparent when the mother obtained a Civil Court ruling that granted her custody of the two children, and immediately after the husband snatched their son away,and the police refused to investigate as they claim they have their hands tied. On one hand, the Syariah court did grant the husband custody, while the Civil Courts granted the mother custody, 2 conflicting rulings.

What do you all think about this? I'm just interested in hearing your opinions about this.

As a Chinese Malaysian, I say we need significant amounts of secular governance and to remove the Islamist parties for the sake of social stability and equality.

[Kemalism intensifies]

Regardless of that, we should take over Brunei. They jumped into the deep end, and I believe the Salafists from Arabia have something to do with such.

Also, remove Salafism from the premises. Seriously, their teachings are incompatible for Malay heritage, and are twisted and far too extreme. Muhammed (PBUH) would disapprove of such violent and intolerance that they preach.

In other words, secualrize. Emulate a stronger and more rigid form of constitution with a Malaysian version of Pancasila.

[Libercatia]

I think he/she just means no religion in government decisions, kind of like Turkey.

I'm fully in endorsement of religions to be out of the state. I'm not in endorsement of religions to be out of public however, especially through coercive means enforced by fascist state apparatchiks.

Of course, the state has no right to force its beliefs, or lack thereof, upon the populace. However, I do not believe in religious courts.

[Saracenia]

In other words, secualrize. Emulate a stronger and more rigid form of constitution with a Malaysian version of Pancasila.

Does this mean recognising 'Ketuhanan yang Maha Esa' and banning atheism

[Senyosu]

In other words, secualrize. Emulate a stronger and more rigid form of constitution with a Malaysian version of Pancasila.

Does this mean recognising 'Ketuhanan yang Maha Esa' and banning atheism

While I do end up disagreeing with it (being one of those no-gods or god Buddhists), it seems far more in line with Malaysian culture as it is. It is a step up from their current system.

[Kuzestan]

In other words, secualrize. Emulate a stronger and more rigid form of constitution with a Malaysian version of Pancasila.

Does this mean recognising 'Ketuhanan yang Maha Esa' and banning atheism

What? banning of atheism is against secularization

Edit: Moreover, secularization actually rhymes with Islam, because it doesn't force people to follow it ( QS. Al-Baqarah: 256 and QS. Al-Yunus:99)