Islam/Muslim Discussion Thread

[The Nuclear Fist]

I support rehabilitation, which is the only system proven to reduce recidivism rates. Slavery does no such thing, it just hurts the economy. And yes, I feel that way about all slavers. They should be killed.

I just don't see how rehabilitation and slavery can't be reconciled. A kleptomaniac working an assembly line, learning not to steal, would be rehabilitation in itself.

Rehabilitation generally implies the subject is rehabilitated, which given by the fact that pure punishment, which ultimately slavery is, has never been shown to be effective at. So on top of being barbaric and a net drain on the economy, it's actively detrimental.

[Mahdistan]

What I'm suggesting would be a form of rehabilitation, working for society to help heal whatever harm they caused it, while giving them work experience. We cannot do whatever we like to slaves, and anyone who says they can should be punished. That's why it's a law; just because people could do something bad doesn't mean it should be outlawed outright. That's why we have laws and limitations on things. You can call no true Scotsman all you please, but I can support my position with the Quran. There are outlines for this.

Slavery is not a form of rehabilitation, especially if someone arrested for theft runs the risk of being enslaved for the rest of his or her life. Being a servant to some fuck head isn't going to give them much skills apart from how to be a waiter or butler.

Yeah, same thing exists in the Bible. Still happens, still Christians.

A waiter or butler is a better profession than a thief. It serves as something to avoid for law-abiders, and a better fate than rotting for law-breakers. And considering that Christianity doesn't revolve around the Bible near as much as Islam revolves around the Quran, it's a different case, though nonetheless I still wouldn't call someone who breaks Biblical law so much a Christian.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

Slavery is not a form of rehabilitation, especially if someone arrested for theft runs the risk of being enslaved for the rest of his or her life. Being a servant to some fuck head isn't going to give them much skills apart from how to be a waiter or butler.

Yeah, same thing exists in the Bible. Still happens, still Christians.

A waiter or butler is a better profession than a thief. It serves as something to avoid for law-abiders, and a better fate than rotting for law-breakers. And considering that Christianity doesn't revolve around the Bible near as much as Islam revolves around the Quran, it's a different case, though nonetheless I still wouldn't call someone who breaks Biblical law so much a Christian.

some Christians believe in biblical slavery.

[Mahdistan]

Hilariously stupid? You're arguing between the defining line between a prisoner who sits in a cell all day, and a prisoner who works for society. Both are owned, both have rights curtailed, difference is, one is helping build up society, one is leeching taxpayer resources.

I was talking about the "Arguably, so is anyone obligated to pay taxes". Try reading.

'No, they are not owned. Nor are people that owe taxes, that line of reasoning is quite honestly hilariously stupid. They are legally still human beings with certain rights curtailed, but not all.'
Or, try writing. 'nor' implies that both concepts are hilariously stupid.

[Mahdistan]

Execution and abuse are two entirely different things. Executing a dangerous man is service to society, abusing a man, dangerous or no, is un-Islamic.

Yeah, all the men of the Banu Qurayza, who were POWs, deserved to be executed, with their women enslaved (probably to be used as sex slaves by the holy followers eh?) along with their children.

Yeah, they were trying to kill them. So sorry he wouldn't release people who had killed Muslims, and would kill more, but I think he did the right thing. No evidence of these women being made 'sex slaves', some were married into other Muslim's families, others, particularly those who supported the old clan, became house-slaves, and the rest converted to Islam.

[Hoffenland]

A waiter or butler is a better profession than a thief. It serves as something to avoid for law-abiders, and a better fate than rotting for law-breakers. And considering that Christianity doesn't revolve around the Bible near as much as Islam revolves around the Quran, it's a different case, though nonetheless I still wouldn't call someone who breaks Biblical law so much a Christian.

some Christians believe in biblical slavery.

Not just biblical slavery
http://www.snopes.com/trump-supporters-pro-slavery/

[Sanctissima]

Zakat is a tax.

It is a fee not a tax.

You have a very odd definition of what constitutes a tax.

I could quite easily make a claim that my income taxes aren't really taxes, but a form of tribute paid to the government. Your wording is very unique.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

Yeah, all the men of the Banu Qurayza, who were POWs, deserved to be executed, with their women enslaved (probably to be used as sex slaves by the holy followers eh?) along with their children.

Yeah, they were trying to kill them. So sorry he wouldn't release people who had killed Muslims, and would kill more, but I think he did the right thing. No evidence of these women being made 'sex slaves', some were married into other Muslim's families, others, particularly those who supported the old clan, became house-slaves, and the rest converted to Islam.

Muhammad(SAAWS) actually ordered his men not to harm the women or children.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

some Christians believe in biblical slavery.

Not just biblical slavery
http://www.snopes.com/trump-supporters-pro-slavery/

Enslaving blacks was awful, Islamic slavery is nothing like that.

[Mahdistan]

I just don't see how rehabilitation and slavery can't be reconciled. A kleptomaniac working an assembly line, learning not to steal, would be rehabilitation in itself.

Rehabilitation generally implies the subject is rehabilitated, which given by the fact that pure punishment, which ultimately slavery is, has never been shown to be effective at. So on top of being barbaric and a net drain on the economy, it's actively detrimental.

Blacks in post-slavery America often continued to work fields because it was what they were good at, and they made money from that. Now imagine if in their days as a slave, they had never been whipped and given better housing and food, and after being freed, their former-owner was religiously obligated to pay them fairly. If these slaves, too, ad been imprisoned for crimes, they could have seen the error of their ways, gotten however long they were slaves to gain experience, and have spent that time lowering market costs of goods in producing them in high quantities.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

It is a fee not a tax.

You have a very odd definition of what constitutes a tax.

I could quite easily make a claim that my income taxes aren't really taxes, but a form of tribute paid to the government. Your wording is very unique.

It's a protection fee to defend from harm, Islamic economies do not burden people with taxes or interest.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

Rehabilitation generally implies the subject is rehabilitated, which given by the fact that pure punishment, which ultimately slavery is, has never been shown to be effective at. So on top of being barbaric and a net drain on the economy, it's actively detrimental.

Blacks in post-slavery America often continued to work fields because it was what they were good at, and they made money from that. Now imagine if in their days as a slave, they had never been whipped and given better housing and food, and after being freed, their former-owner was religiously obligated to pay them fairly. If these slaves, too, ad been imprisoned for crimes, they could have seen the error of their ways, gotten however long they were slaves to gain experience, and have spent that time lowering market costs of goods in producing them in high quantities.

You do know that prisoners in Islamic states are not slaves and they are two totally different categories.

[Sanctissima]

You have a very odd definition of what constitutes a tax.

I could quite easily make a claim that my income taxes aren't really taxes, but a form of tribute paid to the government. Your wording is very unique.

It's a protection fee to defend from harm, Islamic economies do not burden people with taxes or interest.

If the Jizya and Zakat are not considered forms of taxes, then how exactly are Islamic economies supposed to stay afloat? Am I to believe that Islam sponsors a form of Anarcho-Capitalism?

[Hoffenland]

You have a very odd definition of what constitutes a tax.

I could quite easily make a claim that my income taxes aren't really taxes, but a form of tribute paid to the government. Your wording is very unique.

It's a protection fee to defend from harm, Islamic economies do not burden people with taxes or interest.

So a bit like the Mafia, then.

[Jochistan]

That doesn't mean that's the way it has to be. There are horrible people calling themselves Muslim, but perform such abuses. They need to be punished, perhaps made slaves themselves. And an owner of slaves should be more kind than a prison warden, and treat their slaves not only fairly, but with respect.

Ah yes, I forgot that No True Muslim would ever do something you personally disagree with.

So? Islam critics accuse non fundamentalist Muslims of being "wishy washy cafeteria Muslims" all the time.

You people, next to Salafis and other fundamentalists, are the absolute worst offenders in this regard.

Someones probably going to do it now, now that I said it.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

It's a protection fee to defend from harm, Islamic economies do not burden people with taxes or interest.

If the Jizya and Zakat are not considered forms of taxes, then how exactly are Islamic economies supposed to stay afloat? Am I to believe that Islam sponsors a form of Anarcho-Capitalism?

Zakat is actually a state run charity. I don't know much about Anarcho-Capitalism I tried learning it but I didn't understand it. Here's a wikilink describing an Islamic economy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_economics

[Mahdistan]

Blacks in post-slavery America often continued to work fields because it was what they were good at, and they made money from that. Now imagine if in their days as a slave, they had never been whipped and given better housing and food, and after being freed, their former-owner was religiously obligated to pay them fairly. If these slaves, too, ad been imprisoned for crimes, they could have seen the error of their ways, gotten however long they were slaves to gain experience, and have spent that time lowering market costs of goods in producing them in high quantities.

You do know that prisoners in Islamic states are not slaves and they are two totally different categories.

I am suggesting that we drop the concept of prisons altogether (keep jails though), and have slavery be the main system of punishment. This seems to be in line with Islamic teachings, I think, and is kinder to prisoners than prisons.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

It's a protection fee to defend from harm, Islamic economies do not burden people with taxes or interest.

So a bit like the Mafia, then.

If you want to put it like that, I guess it sounds insulting though

[Mahdistan]

It's a protection fee to defend from harm, Islamic economies do not burden people with taxes or interest.

So a bit like the Mafia, then.

Before we had the taxes of today, that's all people paid governments for. So basically, it would essentially just be paying for the military wing of the state, while everything else would be privately owned.

I don't necessarily fully agree that that's what Shariah demands, but I'd say that's a discussion for another time.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

You do know that prisoners in Islamic states are not slaves and they are two totally different categories.

I am suggesting that we drop the concept of prisons altogether (keep jails though), and have slavery be the main system of punishment. This seems to be in line with Islamic teachings, I think, and is kinder to prisoners than prisons.

No that's Bid'ah

[Mahdistan]

I am suggesting that we drop the concept of prisons altogether (keep jails though), and have slavery be the main system of punishment. This seems to be in line with Islamic teachings, I think, and is kinder to prisoners than prisons.

No that's Bid'ah

How so? To my knowledge, there are no Hadith suggesting prison as a necessity to have, but offenders of the law undoubtedly need to be punished.

[Jochistan]

Don't see how making prisoners work as part of their sentence is the same as slavery.

But even if it technically would count as slavery, personally I wouldn't care. It's fine. Contributes to society, builds character and is generally a just way of dealing with convicts.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

No that's Bid'ah

How so? To my knowledge, there are no Hadith suggesting prison as a necessity to have, but offenders of the law undoubtedly need to be punished.

Rasoolillah(SAAWS) had prisons so therefore it is Sunnah.

[Jochistan]

That doesn't mean that's the way it has to be. There are horrible people calling themselves Muslim, but perform such abuses. They need to be punished, perhaps made slaves themselves. And an owner of slaves should be more kind than a prison warden, and treat their slaves not only fairly, but with respect.

No, a slaver should be castrated and tied to a post, left to be picked apart by wild animals. There is nothing humane about slavery.

Ah. And that is humane?

You wouldn't want to make ISIS and Islamic Fundamentalists work under force?

Might be an adequate solution to Salafism, actually. Make the Imams and congregations give up their views or live a life of servitude to the state.

[Mahdistan]

How so? To my knowledge, there are no Hadith suggesting prison as a necessity to have, but offenders of the law undoubtedly need to be punished.

Rasoolillah(SAAWS) had prisons so therefore it is Sunnah.

But did the serve the same purpose as the prisons of today, to actively make a person serve a sentence for a time, or like a basic jail, to keep the inmate separate for a time until a punishment was formed?