NationStates

New confederate ramenia wrote:

Ghuraba Al-Khorusani wrote:You're right on a show I saw on A&E apparently somewhere in the US constitution it states criminals are slaves of the state.

It doesn't say so in the constitution, it's more how things actually are. Prisoners don't have much freedom. And US prisons are actually much worse than the perfect, idealized slavery some of you seem to advocate.

That's all I'm saying I'm glad you understand our point

Mahdistan wrote:

The Nuclear Fist wrote:Ah yes, I forgot that No True Muslim would ever do something you personally disagree with.

The Quran says you should not mistreat slaves. Those who do not follow the Quran are not Muslim, plain and simple. And do you not want people abusing slaves punished?

So Muhammad wasn't a true Muslim since he had prisoners of war killed. Good to know.

Mahdistan wrote:

The Nuclear Fist wrote:No, a slaver should be castrated and tied to a post, left to be picked apart by wild animals. There is nothing humane about slavery.

If there's a person out there, pulling people out of their homes to be made slaves, than he deserves punishment, absolutely. But, do you really feel so strongly of people arresting criminals, and having them pay back their debts cleaning houses or working farms instead of staring at a blank wall for years at a time?

I support rehabilitation, which is the only system proven to reduce recidivism rates. Slavery does no such thing, it just hurts the economy. And yes, I feel that way about all slavers. They should be killed.

Napkiraly wrote:

Ghuraba Al-Khorusani wrote:You're right on a show I saw on A&E apparently somewhere in the US constitution it states criminals are slaves of the state.

Only if they're in a prison that still practices penal labour, which is also something that should be brought to an end.

So they should sit around and gain weight and rot? Labor builds character and value and teamwork.

Ghuraba Al-Khorusani wrote:

Napkiraly wrote:It depends on the prison system; personally I'm for rehabilitating for all but the worst criminals. But even the worst criminals don't deserve to become someone else's property. Yet abuses happen all the time because slavery creates a system where one views they can do anything to their property.

"B-b-but not real Muslim!!! D:" Yeah, no true Scotsman argument once again when it comes to horrific shit being committed by Muslims. I don't deny Stalin as an atheist for his anti-religion stances that lead to horrific things; I don't deny that the Crusaders were Christians when they butchered the population of Jerusalem.

Please learn what Takfeer is when dealing with Muslims. It'll make you look like you know what you're saying instead of throwing around that "NO true Scotsman" rubbish.

No, it is No True Scotsman. "We can do no wrong!" Yes you can. Stop trying to deny it, it only makes the situation worse for Muslims who can't seem to accept that yes Muslim people can be absolute cunts that do horrific things.

Ghuraba Al-Khorusani wrote:

The Nuclear Fist wrote:No it fucking doesn't.

How many times do you use that horrible language of yours in a day? Please stop.

Fuck that.

Napkiraly wrote:

Mahdistan wrote:But I'm explaining my position, and repeatedly stating that abuses are completely un-Islamic. Prisons are a system for punishing and abusing; what I'm suggesting is a system for healing and restitution.

It depends on the prison system; personally I'm for rehabilitating for all but the worst criminals. But even the worst criminals don't deserve to become someone else's property. Yet abuses happen all the time because slavery creates a system where one views they can do anything to their property.

"B-b-but not real Muslim!!! D:" Yeah, no true Scotsman argument once again when it comes to horrific shit being committed by Muslims. I don't deny Stalin as an atheist for his anti-religion stances that lead to horrific things; I don't deny that the Crusaders were Christians when they butchered the population of Jerusalem.

What I'm suggesting would be a form of rehabilitation, working for society to help heal whatever harm they caused it, while giving them work experience. We cannot do whatever we like to slaves, and anyone who says they can should be punished. That's why it's a law; just because people could do something bad doesn't mean it should be outlawed outright. That's why we have laws and limitations on things. You can call no true Scotsman all you please, but I can support my position with the Quran. There are outlines for this.

Ghuraba Al-Khorusani wrote:

Napkiraly wrote:Only if they're in a prison that still practices penal labour, which is also something that should be brought to an end.

So they should sit around and gain weight and rot? Labor builds character and value and teamwork.

No, they should be allowed to work as long as it is also paid work. The main purpose of prison should be rehabilitation and reintegration in society. I'd rather we have them spend time in a classroom getting GED's and technical degrees than tilling dirt in the sun.

Ghuraba Al-Khorusani wrote:

Napkiraly wrote:Only if they're in a prison that still practices penal labour, which is also something that should be brought to an end.

So they should sit around and gain weight and rot? Labor builds character and value and teamwork.

Source?

Mahdistan wrote:

Napkiraly wrote:It depends on the prison system; personally I'm for rehabilitating for all but the worst criminals. But even the worst criminals don't deserve to become someone else's property. Yet abuses happen all the time because slavery creates a system where one views they can do anything to their property.

"B-b-but not real Muslim!!! D:" Yeah, no true Scotsman argument once again when it comes to horrific shit being committed by Muslims. I don't deny Stalin as an atheist for his anti-religion stances that lead to horrific things; I don't deny that the Crusaders were Christians when they butchered the population of Jerusalem.

What I'm suggesting would be a form of rehabilitation, working for society to help heal whatever harm they caused it, while giving them work experience. We cannot do whatever we like to slaves, and anyone who says they can should be punished. That's why it's a law; just because people could do something bad doesn't mean it should be outlawed outright. That's why we have laws and limitations on things. You can call no true Scotsman all you please, but I can support my position with the Quran. There are outlines for this.

Slavery is not a form of rehabilitation, especially if someone arrested for theft runs the risk of being enslaved for the rest of his or her life. Being a servant to some fuck head isn't going to give them much skills apart from how to be a waiter or butler.

Yeah, same thing exists in the Bible. Still happens, still Christians.

Napkiraly wrote:

Mahdistan wrote:People in prison are owned too. Arguably, so is anyone obligated to pay taxes. But in my mind, anyone who commits a crime forfeits their rights.

No, they are not owned. Nor are people that owe taxes, that line of reasoning is quite honestly hilariously stupid. They are legally still human beings with certain rights curtailed, but not all.

Hilariously stupid? You're arguing between the defining line between a prisoner who sits in a cell all day, and a prisoner who works for society. Both are owned, both have rights curtailed, difference is, one is helping build up society, one is leeching taxpayer resources.

Napkiraly wrote:

Mahdistan wrote:The Quran says you should not mistreat slaves. Those who do not follow the Quran are not Muslim, plain and simple. And do you not want people abusing slaves punished?

So Muhammad wasn't a true Muslim since he had prisoners of war killed. Good to know.

Execution and abuse are two entirely different things. Executing a dangerous man is service to society, abusing a man, dangerous or no, is un-Islamic.

Mahdistan wrote:

Napkiraly wrote:No, they are not owned. Nor are people that owe taxes, that line of reasoning is quite honestly hilariously stupid. They are legally still human beings with certain rights curtailed, but not all.

Hilariously stupid? You're arguing between the defining line between a prisoner who sits in a cell all day, and a prisoner who works for society. Both are owned, both have rights curtailed, difference is, one is helping build up society, one is leeching taxpayer resources.

I was talking about the "Arguably, so is anyone obligated to pay taxes". Try reading.

Napkiraly wrote:

Mahdistan wrote:What I'm suggesting would be a form of rehabilitation, working for society to help heal whatever harm they caused it, while giving them work experience. We cannot do whatever we like to slaves, and anyone who says they can should be punished. That's why it's a law; just because people could do something bad doesn't mean it should be outlawed outright. That's why we have laws and limitations on things. You can call no true Scotsman all you please, but I can support my position with the Quran. There are outlines for this.

Slavery is not a form of rehabilitation, especially if someone arrested for theft runs the risk of being enslaved for the rest of his or her life. Being a servant to some fuck head isn't going to give them much skills apart from how to be a waiter or butler.

Yeah, same thing exists in the Bible. Still happens, still Christians.

Prisoners aren't slaves, slaves are slaves prisoners are prisoners.

Napkiraly wrote:

Mahdistan wrote:Hilariously stupid? You're arguing between the defining line between a prisoner who sits in a cell all day, and a prisoner who works for society. Both are owned, both have rights curtailed, difference is, one is helping build up society, one is leeching taxpayer resources.

I was talking about the "Arguably, so is anyone obligated to pay taxes". Try reading.

There is no tax in Islam.

Ghuraba Al-Khorusani wrote:

Mahdistan wrote:People in prison are owned too. Arguably, so is anyone obligated to pay taxes. But in my mind, anyone who commits a crime forfeits their rights.

You're right on a show I saw on A&E apparently somewhere in the US constitution it states criminals are slaves of the state.

It absolutely does not say that anywhere in the U.S. Constitution. It is a very short document. An intelligent person would simply read it for himself instead of ignorantly spouting crap about it.

You rail against those who don't understand Islam "justly", but you can't even be bothered to spend ten minutes reading the US Constitution before repeating (or more likely making up) lies about what it says. You demand that others understand you and your religion, but you don't care one bit about their beliefs.

By this, and especially by your ridiculous support for the Islamic practice of slavery (about which have repeatedly lied), you have more than proven your disingenuousness. Anyone who listens to, or believes, anything you say/write is a fool.

The Nuclear Fist wrote:

Mahdistan wrote:If there's a person out there, pulling people out of their homes to be made slaves, than he deserves punishment, absolutely. But, do you really feel so strongly of people arresting criminals, and having them pay back their debts cleaning houses or working farms instead of staring at a blank wall for years at a time?

I support rehabilitation, which is the only system proven to reduce recidivism rates. Slavery does no such thing, it just hurts the economy. And yes, I feel that way about all slavers. They should be killed.

I just don't see how rehabilitation and slavery can't be reconciled. A kleptomaniac working an assembly line, learning not to steal, would be rehabilitation in itself.

Ghuraba Al-Khorusani wrote:

Napkiraly wrote:I was talking about the "Arguably, so is anyone obligated to pay taxes". Try reading.

There is no tax in Islam.

Another lie.

Ghuraba Al-Khorusani wrote:

Napkiraly wrote:I was talking about the "Arguably, so is anyone obligated to pay taxes". Try reading.

There is no tax in Islam.

So there are no economies? Everyone is a hunter-gatherer?

Mahdistan wrote:

Napkiraly wrote:So Muhammad wasn't a true Muslim since he had prisoners of war killed. Good to know.

Execution and abuse are two entirely different things. Executing a dangerous man is service to society, abusing a man, dangerous or no, is un-Islamic.

Yeah, all the men of the Banu Qurayza, who were POWs, deserved to be executed, with their women enslaved (probably to be used as sex slaves by the holy followers eh?) along with their children.

Ghuraba Al-Khorusani wrote:

Napkiraly wrote:I was talking about the "Arguably, so is anyone obligated to pay taxes". Try reading.

There is no tax in Islam.

Jizya.

Napkiraly wrote:

Ghuraba Al-Khorusani wrote:There is no tax in Islam.

Jizya.

There is no tax in Islam, that is a payment for protection not a real tax.

Ghuraba Al-Khorusani wrote:

Napkiraly wrote:I was talking about the "Arguably, so is anyone obligated to pay taxes". Try reading.

There is no tax in Islam.

Zakat is a tax.

Viking Confederacy wrote:

Ghuraba Al-Khorusani wrote:You're right on a show I saw on A&E apparently somewhere in the US constitution it states criminals are slaves of the state.

It absolutely does not say that anywhere in the U.S. Constitution. It is a very short document. An intelligent person would simply read it for himself instead of ignorantly spouting crap about it.

You rail against those who don't understand Islam "justly", but you can't even be bothered to spend ten minutes reading the US Constitution before repeating (or more likely making up) lies about what it says. You demand that others understand you and your religion, but you don't care one bit about their beliefs.

By this, and especially by your ridiculous support for the Islamic practice of slavery (about which have repeatedly lied), you have more than proven your disingenuousness. Anyone who listens to, or believes, anything you say/write is a fool.

By the lord of the Kaab'a Ar-Rahman I tell the truth, I heard a police officer on a TV show say this he was wrong I didn't really care or bother to check I assumed he told the truth.

Czechanada wrote:

Ghuraba Al-Khorusani wrote:There is no tax in Islam.

Zakat is a tax.

It is a fee not a tax.