Islam/Muslim Discussion Thread

[Mahdistan]

What if it is

Lets engage this from another perspective. You understand the concept of hypothetical right? If not, an hypothetical is sort of a make-believe situation. It is something that frames a reality so that one can respond to how one would react in it without necessarily endorsing that reality.

Let's say hypothetically that your path in searching for God's truth is deeply flawed. So deeply in fact that there is not a kindle of God's flame in you, and that instead total darkness dominated. What you would think of God would be nothing other than an idol of sin, which seeks your death, the death of those around you, and indeed perpetuates a culture of death even in society as you would want it. Lets say that you had a doubt in your path, would you then engage said doubt to take the standard of finding truth, which would require you to do more work than to just look up things you'd want to hear or see. It would require you to seriously search not just the sources you like, but other sources as well not to spite God, but to serve God as he is the God of truth. For if you set out to fight you better not simply be sure, you better be informed. A lot of people have set out to fight God thinking they fight for him, but it is to no benefit as their God is then an idol of their mind.

And I don't pretend the cost is light. The cost can quickly be life as you know it, but if you were hypothetically speaking to be wrong, would you have the character to martial the gifts of courage, intellect and discipline to search elsewhere than what lead you to the pass you are in?

One who has experienced the love and truth of God would know the difference between that and idol worship. Of course, peers would not be able to assess that properly, as one can only know what one's own self feels. So in the end, it relies on one's own intuition to know what's worth dying, and perhaps more importantly, killing for, as well as that one's peers to question their choices in what they're doing. However, if this is a question to Islam itself, and that the truth of our religion lies in whether we have felt the love of God, than I can say with assuity of life and death that Islam is the true religion. I was once an atheist, I was once an idol worshiper, but I most assuredly am no longer.

[North Arkana]

When one compares Mormonism and Islam, one finds some interesting similarities. Of course one also finds that both origin stories border on absurd, but that's besides the point.

[Jochistan]

Extremely so.

I'm saying that reforming the tradition of Islam to such an extent leads to terrible things. There was almost nothing wrong with the approach classical scholars and Sufis took to the Shari'ah and The Theology of the Qur'an.

Then the question becomes, do you think Salafism will be defeated? That the rest of Islam will be able to counter it? Before it is too late?

Really hope so. At my most optimistic I think this fundamentalism is a postcolonial reaction. A passing thing.

But worst case scenario, this is the end of days, the majority of the Ummah will either die or turn to hollow puritanism and Daijjal will reveal himself in some way. But then again, So will the Mahdi.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

Has anyone here before heard of the deviant Bektashi order? Essentially they're Albanian Sufis who are also twelver Shias. They allow the consumption of alcohol they also pray facing a rock in Albania (I read this somewhere I could be wrong about where they pray), they also believe in a lot of occult beliefs and other odd things.

[Jochistan]

When one compares the origin stories of Mormonism and Islam, one finds they run rather similarly, and even have similar restrictions on certain things. Of course one also finds that both origin stories border on absurd, but that's besides the point.

Hardly.

Very little is similar to the two. I suppose Mormonism might have some things in common with Nation of Islam in terms of creation story, eschatology, practices, clerical structure and theology. But not with most other aspects of Islam.

[Novus America]

Has anyone here before heard of the deviant Bektashi order? Essentially they're Albanian Sufis who are also twelver Shias. They allow the consumption of alcohol they also pray facing a rock in Albania (I read this somewhere I could be wrong about where they pray), they also believe in a lot of occult beliefs and other odd things.

You should not be so quick to call everyone you disagree with a deviant. You should have just left out the deviant part and this would be a good post.

[Mahdistan]

I believe he is actually referring to the army of the Mahdi, the people he names his nation after, Ghuraba Al-Khorusani, the strangers of Khorusan. They weren't Khorusani, nor did they bare the Mahdi, otherwise the last day would surely have come.

Abu Muslim started the Abbasid movement against the Ummayyads in Khorastan, though.

Was that Hadith referring to the events before the day of judgement? Many of the propecies don't deal exactly with the end of days.

My mistake on the Khorusan bit then, but Hadith have stated that the Mahdi will immediately precede the second coming of the Prophet Isa (PBUH). I don't like using Wikipedia, but this article states a number of sources supporting it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_of ... hind_Mahdi

The Quran says Israel, after arising, will be destroyed after a time if they rule unjustly (which I daresay is a given, from an Islamic perspective), but since the Mahdi will come directly before the end of the world, that means Israel must already be destroyed, or he will be the one to destroy Israel. It is said that the rule of the Mahdi will be a time of justice unforeseen since the time of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), so he certainly would taken upon himself to destroy a corrupt empire such as that, if it were not done already.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

Has anyone here before heard of the deviant Bektashi order? Essentially they're Albanian Sufis who are also twelver Shias. They allow the consumption of alcohol they also pray facing a rock in Albania (I read this somewhere I could be wrong about where they pray), they also believe in a lot of occult beliefs and other odd things.

You should not be so quick to call everyone you disagree with a deviant. You should have just left out the deviant part and this would be a good post.

Occultism nor alcohol is allowed in Islam

[Mahdistan]

When one compares Mormonism and Islam, one finds some interesting similarities. Of course one also finds that both origin stories border on absurd, but that's besides the point.

They share many similarities, though we know that their first latter-day prophet, Joseph Smith, could not have been Muslim, as it is said that he attempted to read the Quran and did not understand it, a sure mark of a disbeliever. However, I have a great deal of respect for Mormons. Part of that comes from having been raised in a Mormon-majority community, and some of my closest friends having been Mormon, as well as being Mormon myself for a short time before I learned about Islam.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

Abu Muslim started the Abbasid movement against the Ummayyads in Khorastan, though.

Was that Hadith referring to the events before the day of judgement? Many of the propecies don't deal exactly with the end of days.

My mistake on the Khorusan bit then, but Hadith have stated that the Mahdi will immediately precede the second coming of the Prophet Isa (PBUH). I don't like using Wikipedia, but this article states a number of sources supporting it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_of ... hind_Mahdi

The Quran says Israel, after arising, will be destroyed after a time if they rule unjustly (which I daresay is a given, from an Islamic perspective), but since the Mahdi will come directly before the end of the world, that means Israel must already be destroyed, or he will be the one to destroy Israel. It is said that the rule of the Mahdi will be a time of justice unforeseen since the time of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), so he certainly would taken upon himself to destroy a corrupt empire such as that, if it were not done already.

This army from Khorusan will be the army of Mehdi they're also the one's who will meet Jesus(SAAWS) in Damascus

[The Nuclear Fist]

Has anyone here before heard of the deviant Bektashi order? Essentially they're Albanian Sufis who are also twelver Shias. They allow the consumption of alcohol they also pray facing a rock in Albania (I read this somewhere I could be wrong about where they pray), they also believe in a lot of occult beliefs and other odd things.

This is as opposed to a rock in Mecca, which is totally okay for some reason.

[Mahdistan]

Has anyone here before heard of the deviant Bektashi order? Essentially they're Albanian Sufis who are also twelver Shias. They allow the consumption of alcohol they also pray facing a rock in Albania (I read this somewhere I could be wrong about where they pray), they also believe in a lot of occult beliefs and other odd things.

You should not be so quick to call everyone you disagree with a deviant. You should have just left out the deviant part and this would be a good post.

'Deviation' usually takes a different meaning in Islam. This would imply that they 'deviated' from the original religion, not necessarily that they are 'deviants' as westerners tend to think of the word.

[Novus America]

You should not be so quick to call everyone you disagree with a deviant. You should have just left out the deviant part and this would be a good post.

Occultism nor alcohol is allowed in Islam

In your opinion. See this is the thing. You can say you disagree without insults. Say you think they are wrong and why. You might just want to avoid terms like deviant. It got you in trouble before.

[Mahdistan]

My mistake on the Khorusan bit then, but Hadith have stated that the Mahdi will immediately precede the second coming of the Prophet Isa (PBUH). I don't like using Wikipedia, but this article states a number of sources supporting it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_of ... hind_Mahdi

The Quran says Israel, after arising, will be destroyed after a time if they rule unjustly (which I daresay is a given, from an Islamic perspective), but since the Mahdi will come directly before the end of the world, that means Israel must already be destroyed, or he will be the one to destroy Israel. It is said that the rule of the Mahdi will be a time of justice unforeseen since the time of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), so he certainly would taken upon himself to destroy a corrupt empire such as that, if it were not done already.

This army from Khorusan will be the army of Mehdi they're also the one's who will meet Jesus(SAAWS) in Damascus

Indeed, but I'm having a little trouble finding the Hadith stating that. Could you point me to it?

And nonetheless, it seems the prophetic evidence points to Israel already being destroyed, or being destroyed by the Mahdi.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

Has anyone here before heard of the deviant Bektashi order? Essentially they're Albanian Sufis who are also twelver Shias. They allow the consumption of alcohol they also pray facing a rock in Albania (I read this somewhere I could be wrong about where they pray), they also believe in a lot of occult beliefs and other odd things.

This is as opposed to a rock in Mecca, which is totally okay for some reason.

If Muhammad(SAAWS) told us to pray to the Albanian rock we would but he didn't he said pray facing the Kaab'ah

[Jochistan]

Has anyone here before heard of the deviant Bektashi order? Essentially they're Albanian Sufis who are also twelver Shias. They allow the consumption of alcohol they also pray facing a rock in Albania (I read this somewhere I could be wrong about where they pray), they also believe in a lot of occult beliefs and other odd things.

You should not be so quick to call everyone you disagree with a deviant. You should have just left out the deviant part and this would be a good post.

Except they don't pray facing a rock in Albania.

They're a pious, quiet albeit heterodox syncretic group. Their order is vased on the writings of the classical Sufi and poet Hajj Bektash Veli.

They're pretty syncretic with Turkic shamanism and Gnostic beliefs. Like that Ali and Muhammad are radiations of God's light. Like Angels.
It's pretty out there. But blessings to the strangers.

They used to be the official religion of the Ottoman Janissaries.

Anollasia is/was Bektashi. He could probably get more right about it than I did

[The Nuclear Fist]

This is as opposed to a rock in Mecca, which is totally okay for some reason.

If Muhammad(SAAWS) told us to pray to the Albanian rock we would but he didn't he said pray facing the Kaab'ah

"It's not idol worship when we do it!"

[Jochistan]

You should not be so quick to call everyone you disagree with a deviant. You should have just left out the deviant part and this would be a good post.

'Deviation' usually takes a different meaning in Islam. This would imply that they 'deviated' from the original religion, not necessarily that they are 'deviants' as westerners tend to think of the word.

Judging how the Salafis say it, it's still pretty derogatory.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

This army from Khorusan will be the army of Mehdi they're also the one's who will meet Jesus(SAAWS) in Damascus

Indeed, but I'm having a little trouble finding the Hadith stating that. Could you point me to it?

And nonetheless, it seems the prophetic evidence points to Israel already being destroyed, or being destroyed by the Mahdi.

Prophet Mohammad صلى الله عليه وسلم said: "In the meantime, while the Dajjal will be busy doing this and this, Allah will send down the Messiah son of Mary (Jesus عليه السلام). He (Jesus عليه السلام ) will descend in the eastern part of Damascus, near the white minaret (tower), dressed in the two yellowish garments, with his hands resting on the arms of two angels. When he will bend down his head, water drops will appear trickling down, and when he will raise it, it will appear as though pearl--like drops are rolling down. Any disbeliever whom the air of his breath reaches, and it will reach up to the last limit of his sight, will fall dead. Then, the son of Mary will go in pursuit of the Dajjal, and will overtake him at the gate of Lud (a city 13 miles east of Tel Aviv, Israel), and will kill him." (Sahih Muslim, Tirmizi, Ibn Majah).

Abu Umamah Al-Bahili said, " Prophet Mohammad صلى الله عليه وسلم delivered a speech to us, most of which dealt with the Dajjal (the Anti-Christ) and warned us against him. Umm Sharik bint Abi'l-'Akr said, ‘O Messenger of Allah, where will the Arabs be at that time?’. Prophet Mohammad صلى الله عليه وسلم said, "At that time they will be few in number; most of them will be in the Bayt al-Maqdis (Jerusalem), and their Imam will be a righteous man. While their Imam is going forward to lead the people in the morning prayer, Isa (Jesus) son of Mary will descend. The Imam will step back, to let Jesus lead the people in prayer, but Jesus will place his hand between the man's shoulders and say, 'Go forward and lead the prayer, for the Iqamah was made for you.' So the Imam will lead the people in prayer… Jesus son of Mary will be a just ruler and leader of my Ummah (Nation). He will break the cross, kill the pigs (outlaw raising pigs), and abolish the Jizyah (tax on Christians & Jews). He will not collect the Sadaqah (charity), so he will not collect sheep and camels. Mutual enmity and hatred will disappear. Every harmful animal will be made harmless, so that a small boy will be able to put his hand into a snake's mouth without being harmed, a small girl will be able to make a lion run away from her, and a wolf will go among sheep as if he were a sheepdog. The Earth will be filled with peace as a container is filled with water. People will be in complete agreement, and only Allah will be worshipped. Wars will cease…” (Ibn Majah, Kitab al-Fitan, Tradition No. 4077, 2: 1363)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_Mosque

After the Arab conquest of Damascus in 634, the mosque was built on the site of a Christian basilica dedicated to John the Baptist (Yahya), honored as a prophet by Christians and Muslims alike. A legend dating to the 6th century holds that the building contains the head of John the Baptist. The mosque is also believed by Muslims to be the place where Jesus (Isa) will return at the End of Days. The mausoleum containing the tomb of Saladin stands in a small garden adjoining the north wall of the mosque.

[Jochistan]

If Muhammad(SAAWS) told us to pray to the Albanian rock we would but he didn't he said pray facing the Kaab'ah

"It's not idol worship when we do it!"

You're praying towards a spiritual center of a religious community. The intent is not to worship the Kaaba.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

If Muhammad(SAAWS) told us to pray to the Albanian rock we would but he didn't he said pray facing the Kaab'ah

"It's not idol worship when we do it!"

We don't worship it we face it

[The Nuclear Fist]

"It's not idol worship when we do it!"

You're praying towards a spiritual center of a religious community. The intent is not to worship the Kaaba.

I've seen pictures of the hajj. They flock to it, trampling each other, circle it repeatedly, kissing and touching and venerating the black rock. Just as the pagans did. It certainly looks like idol worship, and it certainly functions like idol worship.

Probably because it's idol worship.

[The Nuclear Fist]

"It's not idol worship when we do it!"

We don't worship it we face it

Sure.

[Novus America]

"It's not idol worship when we do it!"

You're praying towards a spiritual center of a religious community. The intent is not to worship the Kaaba.

The intent is not. But at least the way it is currently done could be questioned. It sure looks like many lose the intent.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

You're praying towards a spiritual center of a religious community. The intent is not to worship the Kaaba.

I've seen pictures of the hajj. They flock to it, trampling each other, circle it repeatedly, kissing and touching and venerating the black rock. Just as the pagans did. It certainly looks like idol worship, and it certainly functions like idol worship.

Probably because it's idol worship.

It's the house of Allah, Allah sits atop the Kaaba so yes we do kiss it and touch it in order to be as close to God as possible.