Islam/Muslim Discussion Thread

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

Allah only guides those who are just so in spite of my Dawa'h you don't see the Haqq Im sorry on behalf of my self and you.

Well I guess I have to ask someone else for an answer to my questions then.

Okay

[Herskerstad]

Allah only guides those who are just so in spite of my Dawa'h you don't see the Haqq Im sorry on behalf of my self and you.

Well I guess I have to ask someone else for an answer to my questions then.

I am here if you got any questions.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

Well I guess I have to ask someone else for an answer to my questions then.

I am here if you got any questions.

Are you Muslim if so, are Sunni or Shia
If Sunni are you Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, or Hanbali
If Shia are you Twelver, Ismaili, or Zaydi

[Novus America]

Well I guess I have to ask someone else for an answer to my questions then.

I am here if you got any questions.

Are you a Muslim?

[Herskerstad]

I am here if you got any questions.

Are you a Muslim?

Nope, though I believe I have demonstrated some knowledge on the field of Islam.

[Novus America]

Are you a Muslim?

Nope, though I believe I have demonstrated some knowledge on the field of Islam.

Well here is the question. Islam is predicated on one simple belief. God spoke to Muhmmad. Everything else flows from that. Why should we find this more credible than any other indentical religious claim. A Christian missionary will tell you why they believe. You might not accept their reasons, but they offer reasons.

How do Muslim missionaries convince people? I am curious. As this tells you what a religion is really about. The essence. I know a lot about the different rules and sects. But that is not getting to the real essence. That is just details.

[The balkens]

Are you a Muslim?

Nope, though I believe I have demonstrated some knowledge on the field of Islam.

Is it possible to have a reformation in the coming decades? akin to the protestants?

[Jochistan]

Islam has predicted everything in the world. Muhammad(SAAWS) said "Iraq will be a land of constant Fitnah(conflict)" he also told of the wars in Syria in Khorusan(Afghanistan and central Asia) he said "An army carrying black flags will come from Khorusan no army will be able to stop them and will not stop until their flags are erect in Jerusalem"

Some people say that other relgions predict everything. And what army are you referring to? No such army has taken Jerusalem yet. Unless you mean it predicted the orginal takeover by Muslims a long time ago.

It was talking about the Abbasids.

[Herskerstad]

Nope, though I believe I have demonstrated some knowledge on the field of Islam.

Well here is the question. Islam is predicated on one simple belief. God spoke to Muhmmad. Everything else flows from that. Why should we find this more credible than any other indentical religious claim. A Christian missionary will tell you why the believe. You might not acceopt their reasons, but they offer reasons.

How do Muslim missionaries convince people? I am curious. As this tells you what a religion is really about. The essence. I know a lot about the different rules and sects. But that is not getting to the real essence. That is just details.

Well, from what I see and this relates to missionaries across any field, they adapt to target audiences. You will get anything from acts of great charity to conversion by the sword and this strikes true not only for their religion. The single best Muslim Apologist I know of to this day is Shabir Ally and it would be disingenuous of me to try to mimic his routine, but he is an extraordinary person and deals with one of the strongest Christian apologist in the world today which is James White.

Why not take the best of both worlds and watch them in debate? They do touch on such subjects.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee9c45d ... tml5=False

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUiZ-fy ... tml5=False

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BT_yGgP ... tml5=False

[Jochistan]

Nope, though I believe I have demonstrated some knowledge on the field of Islam.

Is it possible to have a reformation in the coming decades? akin to the protestants?

We already did. The Salafi movement was the reform movement. Bypassing and disregarding all tradition, doctrinal development and difference of opinion and instead getting right to the letter of the source material.

[Novus America]

Some people say that other relgions predict everything. And what army are you referring to? No such army has taken Jerusalem yet. Unless you mean it predicted the orginal takeover by Muslims a long time ago.

It was talking about the Abbasids.

Could be. Though he claimed something different. Same issue people have with the prophecies in all relgions. Some claiming they already happened, others that they are yet to come.

[Jochistan]

The Hadith only has one narrator Aisha(RA) not the Sahih chain, and as for the bolded Allah(SWT) would have given Muhammad(SAAWS) the knowledge to read it. The Quran is Allah's speech not from mankind's heart is the bottom line.

While the Hadith has one narrator, you will find the story itself repeated several times in Sahih chains. Specifically Sahih Muslim.

Sahih Muslim 3421—Aisha reported that it had been revealed in the Holy Qur’an that ten clear sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated by five sucklings and Allah’s Apostle died and it was before that time (found) in the Holy Qur’an (and recited by the Muslims).

I mean, you are only left with a few options either way. Either the quran as we have it on earth is incomplete, or there have been later additions which have been incorporated which would make it partially an invention, or the most trusted narrations stand wrong on the issue of the quran. If we are to believe the story as we cannot find the verse in the quran then we know the most standardized version is incomplete. If it is as you said earlier that it was added in to the quran later on then the quran would be different from the original and thus under invention, or the figures who mentioned the missing verses in your most trusted sources would be wrong, and how many more things could we then expect them to err in reporting?

To be fair, there are plenty of disputed and weak hadiths in the Sahih books that were found and disputed by famous scholars like Imam Ghazali and most of the founders of the four Madhabs.

It's confusing that way. But Hadith are organized pretty generally. And generally, the Sahih Books are said to be the most authentic. Some scholars are of the opinion that the ones that don't make sense will in a future context. Which is strange to think about. But interesting

[Novus America]

Is it possible to have a reformation in the coming decades? akin to the protestants?

We already did. The Salafi movement was the reform movement. Bypassing and disregarding all tradition, doctrinal development and difference of opinion and instead getting right to the letter of the source material.

I thought you were anti SalafI.

[Jochistan]

We already did. The Salafi movement was the reform movement. Bypassing and disregarding all tradition, doctrinal development and difference of opinion and instead getting right to the letter of the source material.

I thought you were anti SalafI.

Extremely so.

I'm saying that reforming the tradition of Islam to such an extent leads to terrible things. There was almost nothing wrong with the approach classical scholars and Sufis took to the Shari'ah and The Theology of the Qur'an.

[Herskerstad]

While the Hadith has one narrator, you will find the story itself repeated several times in Sahih chains. Specifically Sahih Muslim.

Sahih Muslim 3421—Aisha reported that it had been revealed in the Holy Qur’an that ten clear sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated by five sucklings and Allah’s Apostle died and it was before that time (found) in the Holy Qur’an (and recited by the Muslims).

I mean, you are only left with a few options either way. Either the quran as we have it on earth is incomplete, or there have been later additions which have been incorporated which would make it partially an invention, or the most trusted narrations stand wrong on the issue of the quran. If we are to believe the story as we cannot find the verse in the quran then we know the most standardized version is incomplete. If it is as you said earlier that it was added in to the quran later on then the quran would be different from the original and thus under invention, or the figures who mentioned the missing verses in your most trusted sources would be wrong, and how many more things could we then expect them to err in reporting?

To be fair, there are plenty of disputed and weak hadiths in the Sahih books that were found and disputed by famous scholars like Imam Ghazali and most of the founders of the four Madhabs.

It is true that I find certain discrepancies within the claims of the sound Hadiths and that there is a significant reworking of Hadith understanding. The same thing happened with Christianity, the reformed community and the internet which gave us far more manuscript knowledge than ever before and from it abilities to chart things all the more accurately.

Most likely it will cumulate in some North/southern split between scholars and traditionalists within the Sunni community. I have significant doubts that a decade or two by now that the average European or American Sunni will keep to the same hadith collections as they currently do, or at least with a different understanding of them.

[Herskerstad]

Nope, though I believe I have demonstrated some knowledge on the field of Islam.

Is it possible to have a reformation in the coming decades? akin to the protestants?

I would say it is inevitable, but if there will be a schism is another thing. I do belive there will be one understanding-wise, but I don't think the new group will deviate from either the term Muslim or Sunni for the most part.

[Jochistan]

To be fair, there are plenty of disputed and weak hadiths in the Sahih books that were found and disputed by famous scholars like Imam Ghazali and most of the founders of the four Madhabs.

It is true that I find certain discrepancies within the claims of the sound Hadiths and that there is a significant reworking of Hadith understanding. The same thing happened with Christianity, the reformed community and the internet which gave us far more manuscript knowledge than ever before and from it abilities to chart things all the more accurately.

Most likely it will cumulate in some North/southern split between scholars and traditionalists within the Sunni community. I have significant doubts that a decade or two by now that the average European or American Sunni will keep to the same hadith collections as they currently do, or at least with a different understanding of them.

Theres always been different understandings of Hadith and different collections. So maybe. But I think the original Hadith will always be there as eeference no matter how many are denied authenticity. That's how it's historically been.

[Herskerstad]

It is true that I find certain discrepancies within the claims of the sound Hadiths and that there is a significant reworking of Hadith understanding. The same thing happened with Christianity, the reformed community and the internet which gave us far more manuscript knowledge than ever before and from it abilities to chart things all the more accurately.

Most likely it will cumulate in some North/southern split between scholars and traditionalists within the Sunni community. I have significant doubts that a decade or two by now that the average European or American Sunni will keep to the same hadith collections as they currently do, or at least with a different understanding of them.

Theres always been different understandings of Hadith and different collections. So maybe. But I think the original Hadith will always be there as eeference no matter how many are denied authenticity. That's how it's historically been.

Even if by tomorrow it was discovered in the west, by academic studies however impeccable that even one of the Sahih narrations were of dubious origins, there is no way the Salafi community would accept it.

[Novus America]

I thought you were anti SalafI.

Extremely so.

I'm saying that reforming the tradition of Islam to such an extent leads to terrible things. There was almost nothing wrong with the approach classical scholars and Sufis took to the Shari'ah and The Theology of the Qur'an.

Then the question becomes, do you think Salafism will be defeated? That the rest of Islam will be able to counter it? Before it is too late?

[Mahdistan]

Some people say that other relgions predict everything. And what army are you referring to? No such army has taken Jerusalem yet. Unless you mean it predicted the orginal takeover by Muslims a long time ago.

It was talking about the Abbasids.

I believe he is actually referring to the army of the Mahdi, the people he names his nation after, Ghuraba Al-Khorusani, the strangers of Khorusan. They weren't Khorusani, nor did they bare the Mahdi, otherwise the last day would surely have come.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

It was talking about the Abbasids.

I believe he is actually referring to the army of the Mahdi, the people he names his nation after, Ghuraba Al-Khorusani, the strangers of Khorusan. They weren't Khorusani, nor did they bare the Mahdi, otherwise the last day would surely have come.

Thank you

[Mahdistan]

Nope, though I believe I have demonstrated some knowledge on the field of Islam.

Well here is the question. Islam is predicated on one simple belief. God spoke to Muhmmad. Everything else flows from that. Why should we find this more credible than any other indentical religious claim. A Christian missionary will tell you why they believe. You might not accept their reasons, but they offer reasons.

How do Muslim missionaries convince people? I am curious. As this tells you what a religion is really about. The essence. I know a lot about the different rules and sects. But that is not getting to the real essence. That is just details.

Every missionary has their own 'tactic' (I say this loosely, as this would imply they're trying to manipulate the recipient. Their purpose is simply to reveal the truth of the Quran to as many people as possible.). There are an infinite number of truths in the Quran, and missionaries usually make a point to point out which ones they think will reverberate the greatest with whomever they are speaking to. On one hand, a single truth within the Quran may bring one's life into focus, and on the other, the truths to be found are never ending, so one may receive infinite amounts of enlightenment from each and every verse.

One that I have used is one the Quran itself points out; is any other book like the Quran? No other book does not contradict itself without telling the reader to disregard other truths within the book, and still convey the truths the Quran does. Here's a page talking about prophecies and miracles from the Quran; it's a Quranist source, but the message is still absolute:

*EDIT because silly url coding:

http://www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/miracle_of_the_quran_(P1313).html

[Mahdistan]

Some people say that other relgions predict everything. And what army are you referring to? No such army has taken Jerusalem yet. Unless you mean it predicted the orginal takeover by Muslims a long time ago.

I believe he is either reffering to one of the myriads of terrorist organizations that fly black flags or specifically to the Khorasan group.

The only cohesive thing that could effectively be called a terrorist organization in the Greater Khorusan region is the Taliban, who do not fly a black standard, nor do they claim to be hosting the Mahdi.

[Mahdistan]

An angle sent it to him actually, it was Gabriel

Sure he did, kiddo. And maybe the miracle goblin helped him read it. And maybe a unicorn helped him spread it.

Or maybe one of his followers wrote his words down, which is far more likely.

Hadith were entirely collect after the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)'s death, and were organized by scholars who went to the families of people, or directly to the people themselves, who had spoken to him and remembered what he said. This is part of the reason why some Hadith, those collected directly from people who had spoken to him, are considered more legitimate than ones collected hundreds of years after his death, by descendants who only remembered them by oral tradition.

As for the Quran, it is predicted in the Quran that the Quran would outlive all attempts to obscure or destroy it. It is also a Shiite-held view that Hazarat Ali recorded the Quran directly, and presented the first written Quran.

[Jochistan]

It was talking about the Abbasids.

I believe he is actually referring to the army of the Mahdi, the people he names his nation after, Ghuraba Al-Khorusani, the strangers of Khorusan. They weren't Khorusani, nor did they bare the Mahdi, otherwise the last day would surely have come.

Abu Muslim started the Abbasid movement against the Ummayyads in Khorastan, though.

Was that Hadith referring to the events before the day of judgement? Many of the propecies don't deal exactly with the end of days.