Islam/Muslim Discussion Thread

[Shaggai]

As a non-believer, I'll try to be objective. I don't think Islam is evil and backward as some fanatic euroskeptics claim (Geert Wilders and such), but not modern age-appropriate, of course.

I judge Islam based on its historical and cultural conditions. Mohammad can be considered a progressive leader because the society he grew up in was much more backward back then. Islam does not see men and women as equal for sure; but Mohammad relatively increased women's rights at least compared to the standards within his own society where families used to burn their baby daughters.

Also; there is one thing I appreciate about Islam. It focuses on social justice and equal share more than any other religion. It heavily condemns corruption, as well as lying, gossiping.

To sum it up; Islam was a progressive religion at its time, but it does not fit the standards of the modern age.

I have a specific stance about hijab/headscarf and alcohol issue in Islam. Alcohol is not banned, and hijab is not mentioned in Islam. The only reason why Hijab is associated with Islam is it belongs to the Arab customs which Islam came out of. I'd like Muslim women to get rid of those clothes and more dress in a modern way.

Well, some women do actually like wearing the hijab. But it shoul be entirely voluntary to wear it, never compelled.

[Czechanada]

Khadijah was always an interesting anomaly given the alleged pre-Islamic status of women.

Not that much of an anomaly, if I remeber my History class right. Women had fewer rights than men, but definitely more than they now have in that area. I think she wouldn't have been able to build that business on her own, but once she was married she and her husband could do that, and once she was widowed she was perfectly allowed to continue. Once Islam came along, it generally protected the rights of women, and I think made them more equal. Then during either the Abbasid or Umayyad caliphate, women started to lose rights. Scholars decided that some of the verses that protected the rights of women meant different things, the idea of the harem (a separate part of the palace for women) came in, and the tradition continues to this day. Just goes to show that almost anything can be interpreted to suit one's own beliefs. If you go in looking for proof that the Quran or the Hadith denies women rights or tells you to kill the infidels, you will find it. If you go looking for proof that it empowers women, at least for the time period, and tells you to refrain from killing infidels, you will find that. If you look for proof that Islam is evil, you will find evidence. If you go looking for proof that Islam is peaceful and tolerant you will find evidence for that. Therefore, everyone should interpret it peacefully, because that is the most moral, ethical, and just plain useful interpretation. All problems solved, assuming you can get people to agree with me.

Alright, that is an insanely massive and improbable assumption. Still, we can at least try, right?

The funny being that is that in some Arab tribes matriarchy existed: Women would have multiple husbands and inheritance of wealth and status would be matrilineal.

One cannot necessarily flat-out say that Mohamed improved or protected the rights of women; Sure they changed, but not necessarily for the better.*

* I for one don't understand why Muslims and apologists like to brag about this alleged improvement in womens' rights. Empress Theodora did the exact same thing 40 years before Mohamed literally next door to Arabia, and one doesn't see Orthodox Christians circle-jerking about it.

[Seitonjin]

Islam is good...

If the bloody (hehe) extremists stay faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar away from the actual followers. /notaMuslim

[Kemalist]

As a non-believer, I'll try to be objective. I don't think Islam is evil and backward as some fanatic euroskeptics claim (Geert Wilders and such), but not modern age-appropriate, of course.

I judge Islam based on its historical and cultural conditions. Mohammad can be considered a progressive leader because the society he grew up in was much more backward back then. Islam does not see men and women as equal for sure; but Mohammad relatively increased women's rights at least compared to the standards within his own society where families used to burn their baby daughters.

Also; there is one thing I appreciate about Islam. It focuses on social justice and equal share more than any other religion. It heavily condemns corruption, as well as lying, gossiping.

To sum it up; Islam was a progressive religion at its time, but it does not fit the standards of the modern age.

I have a specific stance about hijab/headscarf and alcohol issue in Islam. Alcohol is not banned, and hijab is not mentioned in Islam. The only reason why Hijab is associated with Islam is it belongs to the Arab customs which Islam came out of. I'd like Muslim women to get rid of those clothes and more dress in a modern way.

Well, some women do actually like wearing the hijab. But it shoul be entirely voluntary to wear it, never compelled.

They're too tiny besides those who are forced to wear it based on family, social or cultural conditions.

[Czechanada]

As a non-believer, I'll try to be objective. I don't think Islam is evil and backward as some fanatic euroskeptics claim (Geert Wilders and such), but not modern age-appropriate, of course.

I judge Islam based on its historical and cultural conditions. Mohammad can be considered a progressive leader because the society he grew up in was much more backward back then. Islam does not see men and women as equal for sure; but Mohammad relatively increased women's rights at least compared to the standards within his own society where families used to burn their baby daughters.

Also; there is one thing I appreciate about Islam. It focuses on social justice and equal share more than any other religion. It heavily condemns corruption, as well as lying, gossiping.

To sum it up; Islam was a progressive religion at its time, but it does not fit the standards of the modern age.

I have a specific stance about hijab/headscarf and alcohol issue in Islam. Alcohol is not banned, and hijab is not mentioned in Islam. The only reason why Hijab is associated with Islam is it belongs to the Arab customs which Islam came out of. I'd like Muslim women to get rid of those clothes and more dress in a modern way.

While I'm NSG's resident opponent of sexual repression, it does me no injury to me if women choose to wear a hijab, niqaab, chador, burkha, and such.

The whole point is that people should wear whatever they so choose, be it a toga or a tarp or nothing at all. The ideal that women should dress in a more "modern" way sounds just a bit hypocritical, and reeks a bit of the cultural imperialism of which I criticize Islam for.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

As a non-believer, I'll try to be objective. I don't think Islam is evil and backward as some fanatic euroskeptics claim (Geert Wilders and such), but not modern age-appropriate, of course.

I judge Islam based on its historical and cultural conditions. Mohammad can be considered a progressive leader because the society he grew up in was much more backward back then. Islam does not see men and women as equal for sure; but Mohammad relatively increased women's rights at least compared to the standards within his own society where families used to burn their baby daughters.

Also; there is one thing I appreciate about Islam. It focuses on social justice and equal share more than any other religion. It heavily condemns corruption, as well as lying, gossiping.

To sum it up; Islam was a progressive religion at its time, but it does not fit the standards of the modern age.

I have a specific stance about hijab/headscarf and alcohol issue in Islam. Alcohol is not banned, and hijab is not mentioned in Islam. The only reason why Hijab is associated with Islam is it belongs to the Arab customs which Islam came out of. I'd like Muslim women to get rid of those clothes and more dress in a modern way.

While I'm NSG's resident opponent of sexual repression, it does me no injury to me if women choose to wear a hijab, niqaab, chador, burkha, and such.

The whole point is that people should wear whatever they so choose, be it a toga or a tarp or nothing at all. The ideal that women should dress in a more "modern" way sounds just a bit hypocritical, and reeks a bit of the cultural imperialism of which I criticize Islam for.

^This^

[Shaggai]

Not that much of an anomaly, if I remeber my History class right. Women had fewer rights than men, but definitely more than they now have in that area. I think she wouldn't have been able to build that business on her own, but once she was married she and her husband could do that, and once she was widowed she was perfectly allowed to continue. Once Islam came along, it generally protected the rights of women, and I think made them more equal. Then during either the Abbasid or Umayyad caliphate, women started to lose rights. Scholars decided that some of the verses that protected the rights of women meant different things, the idea of the harem (a separate part of the palace for women) came in, and the tradition continues to this day. Just goes to show that almost anything can be interpreted to suit one's own beliefs. If you go in looking for proof that the Quran or the Hadith denies women rights or tells you to kill the infidels, you will find it. If you go looking for proof that it empowers women, at least for the time period, and tells you to refrain from killing infidels, you will find that. If you look for proof that Islam is evil, you will find evidence. If you go looking for proof that Islam is peaceful and tolerant you will find evidence for that. Therefore, everyone should interpret it peacefully, because that is the most moral, ethical, and just plain useful interpretation. All problems solved, assuming you can get people to agree with me.

Alright, that is an insanely massive and improbable assumption. Still, we can at least try, right?

The funny being that is that in some Arab tribes matriarchy existed: Women would have multiple husbands and inheritance of wealth and status would be matrilineal.

One cannot necessarily flat-out say that Mohamed improved or protected the rights of women; Sure they changed, but not necessarily for the better.*

* I for one don't understand why Muslims and apologists like to brag about this alleged improvement in womens' rights. Empress Theodora did the exact same thing 40 years before Mohamed literally next door to Arabia, and one doesn't see Orthodox Christians circle-jerking about it.

Well, IIRC, most tribes were not matrilinear. There was an improvement for most tribes. Or at least for the tribes in which it started, which was where it originally applied.

Well, how many people claim that Orthodox Christianity is inherently oppressive to women? The mentioning of the improvement is intended generally to show that no, Saudi Arabia isn't the perfect representation of women's rights in Islam.

[Kemalist]

As a non-believer, I'll try to be objective. I don't think Islam is evil and backward as some fanatic euroskeptics claim (Geert Wilders and such), but not modern age-appropriate, of course.

I judge Islam based on its historical and cultural conditions. Mohammad can be considered a progressive leader because the society he grew up in was much more backward back then. Islam does not see men and women as equal for sure; but Mohammad relatively increased women's rights at least compared to the standards within his own society where families used to burn their baby daughters.

Also; there is one thing I appreciate about Islam. It focuses on social justice and equal share more than any other religion. It heavily condemns corruption, as well as lying, gossiping.

To sum it up; Islam was a progressive religion at its time, but it does not fit the standards of the modern age.

I have a specific stance about hijab/headscarf and alcohol issue in Islam. Alcohol is not banned, and hijab is not mentioned in Islam. The only reason why Hijab is associated with Islam is it belongs to the Arab customs which Islam came out of. I'd like Muslim women to get rid of those clothes and more dress in a modern way.

While I'm NSG's resident opponent of sexual repression, it does me no injury to me if women choose to wear a hijab, niqaab, chador, burkha, and such.

The whole point is that people should wear whatever they so choose, be it a toga or a tarp or nothing at all. The ideal that women should dress in a more "modern" way sounds just a bit hypocritical, and reeks a bit of the cultural imperialism of which I criticize Islam for.

That's just my opinion. I don't tell them to wear as I like or something. Most women are forced to wear Hijab, not because they choose to do so. Most women would like to be able not to wear it. They don't have an option unlike those who prefer to wear it. It's not only law, it's family or neighbourhood or even cultural pressures. Hijab is pretty much a symbol of women's captivity. That's why I think it should be fought against.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

While I'm NSG's resident opponent of sexual repression, it does me no injury to me if women choose to wear a hijab, niqaab, chador, burkha, and such.

The whole point is that people should wear whatever they so choose, be it a toga or a tarp or nothing at all. The ideal that women should dress in a more "modern" way sounds just a bit hypocritical, and reeks a bit of the cultural imperialism of which I criticize Islam for.

That's just my opinion. I don't tell them to wear as I like or something. Most women are forced to wear Hijab, not because they choose to do so. Most women would like to be able not to wear it. They don't have an option unlike those who prefer to wear it. It's not only law, it's family or neighbourhood or even cultural pressures. Hijab is pretty much a symbol of women's captivity. That's why I think it should be fought against.

Source?

[Kemalist]

That's just my opinion. I don't tell them to wear as I like or something. Most women are forced to wear Hijab, not because they choose to do so. Most women would like to be able not to wear it. They don't have an option unlike those who prefer to wear it. It's not only law, it's family or neighbourhood or even cultural pressures. Hijab is pretty much a symbol of women's captivity. That's why I think it should be fought against.

Source?

For what? that most women are forced to wear it? look at most Muslim countries. With the exceptions of some (Bosnia, Albania, Turkey, Azerbaijan, Central Asia) women wear it not because they prefer to do. The social conditions in those countries make it necessary for women to wear it. The level of pressure changes from country to country. In some; they could even get killed for not wearing it. In some; they would just get looked down on by the people around and get marginalized.

[Fascist Russian Empire]

I have a lot of respect for Islam, although I am opposed to it's homophobic doctrines.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

Source?

For what? that most women are forced to wear it? look at most Muslim countries. With the exceptions of some (Bosnia, Albania, Turkey, Azerbaijan, Central Asia) women wear it not because they prefer to do. The social conditions in those countries make it necessary for women to wear it. The level of pressure changes from country to country. In some; they could even get killed for not wearing it. In some; they would just get looked down on by the people around and get marginalized.

Just because it is compulsory by law does not mean it is forced upon every woman. i.e. it's compulsory to go to school here, but I wanted to go to school anyway.

[Kemalist]

I have a lot of respect for Islam, although I am opposed to it's homophobic doctrines.

It's a religion, what did you expect?

[Fascist Russian Empire]

I have a lot of respect for Islam, although I am opposed to it's homophobic doctrines.

It's a religion, what did you expect?

There are a lot of religions not based around homophobia.

[Kemalist]

For what? that most women are forced to wear it? look at most Muslim countries. With the exceptions of some (Bosnia, Albania, Turkey, Azerbaijan, Central Asia) women wear it not because they prefer to do. The social conditions in those countries make it necessary for women to wear it. The level of pressure changes from country to country. In some; they could even get killed for not wearing it. In some; they would just get looked down on by the people around and get marginalized.

Just because it is compulsory by law does not mean it is forced upon every woman. i.e. it's compulsory to go to school here, but I wanted to go to school anyway.

Not my point. Hijab is only forced by law in several Islamic regimes (Iran, Saudi Arabia). In other countries where hijab is a part of the culture and customs and the overwhelming majority wears it, it would marginalize those who prefer not to wear it.

[Danhanjeedh]

Good becouse i'm planning on converting to the Islam.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

Good becouse i'm planning on converting to the Islam.

MASHALLAH!!! I'm so happy for you! Inshallah you will find all the support you need!
My boyfriend told me he wants to learn more about Islam today, too, because he feels Christianity has failed him. Today is a good day!

[Danhanjeedh]

Good becouse i'm planning on converting to the Islam.

MASHALLAH!!! I'm so happy for you! Inshallah you will find all the support you need!
My boyfriend told me he wants to learn more about Islam today, too, because he feels Christianity has failed him. Today is a good day!

Thanks;) and its the very same reason i do it. Christianity has failed its very own believes to many times.

[Jamjai]

Good becouse i'm planning on converting to the Islam.

thats like two now..and counting

[Kemalist]

It's a religion, what did you expect?

There are a lot of religions not based around homophobia.

Such as? I don't think any of the abrahamic religions like homosexuals. By the way; afaik while Islam strictly condemns homosexual activities between men; it doesn't say anything about lesbians. Must be to do with it being an androcentric religion.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

MASHALLAH!!! I'm so happy for you! Inshallah you will find all the support you need!
My boyfriend told me he wants to learn more about Islam today, too, because he feels Christianity has failed him. Today is a good day!

Thanks;) and its the very same reason i do it. Christianity has failed its very own believes to many times.

I'm sorry that that was the spurring of your conversion, but I am so happy to welcome you to Islam. What brought you to learn about our religion?

[Nightkill the Emperor]

My country has the third highest (possibly soon to be second, depending on how demographics go) Muslim population in the world, though I'm Hindu myself.

Happy late Eid Al Fitr. There was a hell of a celebration among some quarters here when that finally happened.

[Fascist Russian Empire]

There are a lot of religions not based around homophobia.

Such as? I don't think any of the abrahamic religions like homosexuals. By the way; afaik while Islam strictly condemns homosexual activities between men; it doesn't say anything about lesbians. Must be to do with it being an androcentric religion.

Protestantism,
Shinto,
Hinduism,
Probably more.

[Danhanjeedh]

Thanks;) and its the very same reason i do it. Christianity has failed its very own believes to many times.

I'm sorry that that was the spurring of your conversion, but I am so happy to welcome you to Islam. What brought you to learn about our religion?

I started to read alot about it becouse of the terror attacks, then i found out that the religion is totally different. last week i've been to Egypt and had lots of good conversations with the people there about the Islam. I was already thinking about becoming Muslim but now i'm sure about it

[Australasia]

Such as? I don't think any of the abrahamic religions like homosexuals. By the way; afaik while Islam strictly condemns homosexual activities between men; it doesn't say anything about lesbians. Must be to do with it being an androcentric religion.

Protestantism,
Shinto,
Hinduism,
Probably more.

Quite so.

It's also interesting to note that the majority of the world's Christian (both Protestant and Catholic), Jewish, and Buddhist nations have support gay rights at votes in the United Nations for example.