Islam/Muslim Discussion Thread

[Personal Freedom]

The Samurai were Buddhists.

Just some of them. Some others were Shinto. A better example would be the Ikko Ikki.

Some of the Buddhist Emperors of India, I forget their names. Was it Akbar?

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Just some of them. Some others were Shinto. A better example would be the Ikko Ikki.

Some of the Buddhist Emperors of India, I forget their names. Was it Akbar?

Guess Buddhism is a trap then.

What about Australian Aboriginals?

[Personal Freedom]

Just some of them. Some others were Shinto. A better example would be the Ikko Ikki.

Some of the Buddhist Emperors of India, I forget their names. Was it Akbar?

Not Akbar, but yeah...

[Sun Wukong]

The Samurai were Buddhists.

Just some of them. Some others were Shinto. A better example would be the Ikko Ikki.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Zen Buddhism was basically part of the Samurai Creed in the Edo Era.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Just some of them. Some others were Shinto. A better example would be the Ikko Ikki.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Zen Buddhism was basically part of the Samurai Creed in the Edo Era.

True, but it depends on the individual. Besides, Edo Samurai are stupid. Sengoku Jidai ftw.

[Neo Majapahitan Empire]

Just some of them. Some others were Shinto. A better example would be the Ikko Ikki.

Some of the Buddhist Emperors of India, I forget their names. Was it Akbar?

Was it Ashoka? because he's a buddhist.

[Omensa]

I'm looking to convert. Already know how to waiting for a bit

[Personal Freedom]

Some of the Buddhist Emperors of India, I forget their names. Was it Akbar?

Was it Ashoka? because he's a buddhist.

Thar could be it. Anyway the point has been made.

[Dasha Kovachevich]

I'm looking to convert. Already know how to waiting for a bit

Mashallah, great news!

[Islamic Commune]

I'm looking to convert. Already know how to waiting for a bit

There's no formal rite of passage for Islam. All you have to do is declare that there is no divinity but God and that Muhammad was God's messenger. Then take a shower or something.

But be very careful about this decision. Do not do it without full certainty of what you ate doing. Read up on some of the practices of Islam and its ideas first. Just don't throw yourself into something without full knowledge of what you are doing.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

There's no formal rite of passage for Islam. All you have to do is declare that there is no divinity but God and that Muhammad was God's messenger. Then take a shower or something.

So if my lax Catholic grandmother recognizes Muhammad as a prophet alike a Catholic saint... she becomes a Muslim? e.e

[Personal Freedom]

I'm looking to convert. Already know how to waiting for a bit

There's no formal rite of passage for Islam. All you have to do is declare that there is no divinity but God and that Muhammad was God's messenger. Then take a shower or something.

But be very careful about this decision. Do not do it without full certainty of what you ate doing. Read up on some of the practices of Islam and its ideas first. Just don't throw yourself into something without full knowledge of what you are doing.

Then I'm a Muslim again?

[Islamic Commune]

So if my lax Catholic grandmother recognizes Muhammad as a prophet alike a Catholic saint... she becomes a Muslim? e.e

As long as your grandmother testifies that Muhammad was a Messenger that received divine revelation from God, and that only God has divinity, and no other object, animal or human (Like a Pope) is divine or has divine right, she is a Mu'mina, a term used to describe a Believer. Actually, I think I might have confused people.

So testifying in the above statement makes you a Believer. A Muslim by definition is one who Submits, which means someone who not only believes, but also follows the five pillars of Islam:
-Testifying
-Praying 5 times a day
-Paying Zakat (2.5% of your wealth every year goes to helping the poor or social programs)
-Fasting during Ramadan
-Pilgrimage to Makkah just once

All of those are conditional requirements. If a person is poor and cannot go to Makkah, for example, then they don't have to follow the last pillar.

In addition to those Five Pillars, a Submitter (Muslim) is an active reader of the Qur'an (Or seeker of its information), and seeks to fulfill all of the priorities expressed in the Qur'an.

So your Grandmother could definitely be a Believer, but I don't know if she does what it takes to be a Submitter.

I hope that solves Personal Freedom's question.

[Personal Freedom]

So if my lax Catholic grandmother recognizes Muhammad as a prophet alike a Catholic saint... she becomes a Muslim? e.e

As long as your grandmother testifies that Muhammad was a Messenger that received divine revelation from God, and that only God has divinity, and no other object, animal or human (Like a Pope) is divine or has divine right, she is a Mu'mina, a term used to describe a Believer. Actually, I think I might have confused people.

So testifying in the above statement makes you a Believer. A Muslim by definition is one who Submits, which means someone who not only believes, but also follows the five pillars of Islam:
-Testifying
-Praying 5 times a day
-Paying Zakat (2.5% of your wealth every year goes to helping the poor or social programs)
-Fasting during Ramadan
-Pilgrimage to Makkah just once

All of those are conditional requirements. If a person is poor and cannot go to Makkah, for example, then they don't have to follow the last pillar.

In addition to those Five Pillars, a Submitter (Muslim) is an active reader of the Qur'an (Or seeker of its information), and seeks to fulfill all of the priorities expressed in the Qur'an.

So your Grandmother could definitely be a Believer, but I don't know if she does what it takes to be a Submitter.

I hope that solves Personal Freedom's question.

That is honestly the best definition of Islam I have encountered.

[Islamic Commune]

I have a discussion question, if anyone wants to participate.

Because there is no compulsion in religion in Islam, is it correct to indoctrinate children into Islam? Should children make the final choice once they reach puberty once they want to be a Muslim or not?

I know in Islam, parents have to teach their children about the religion, but to force a child to follow Islam is really not in the ethics of Islam. If I raise a child, I will ask them once they reach 15 whether or not they want to follow Islam or not, and their choice I will accept. What do you guys think about this?

I find that when someone chooses to do something, they are more committed to it, and this applies to religion as well. Those who pledge themselves into Islam when they are mature enough are often more devout than those who were, "born into the faith".

[Anollasia]

So if my lax Catholic grandmother recognizes Muhammad as a prophet alike a Catholic saint... she becomes a Muslim? e.e

As long as your grandmother testifies that Muhammad was a Messenger that received divine revelation from God, and that only God has divinity, and no other object, animal or human (Like a Pope) is divine or has divine right, she is a Mu'mina, a term used to describe a Believer. Actually, I think I might have confused people.

So testifying in the above statement makes you a Believer. A Muslim by definition is one who Submits, which means someone who not only believes, but also follows the five pillars of Islam:
-Testifying
-Praying 5 times a day
-Paying Zakat (2.5% of your wealth every year goes to helping the poor or social programs)
-Fasting during Ramadan
-Pilgrimage to Makkah just once

All of those are conditional requirements. If a person is poor and cannot go to Makkah, for example, then they don't have to follow the last pillar.

In addition to those Five Pillars, a Submitter (Muslim) is an active reader of the Qur'an (Or seeker of its information), and seeks to fulfill all of the priorities expressed in the Qur'an.

So your Grandmother could definitely be a Believer, but I don't know if she does what it takes to be a Submitter.

I hope that solves Personal Freedom's question.

I don't pray 5 times a day, fast during Ramadan (I'm too underweight), or go to Mecca.

Then again I'm still young.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

human (Like a Pope) is divine or has divine right

This probably is where Catholics are excluded, then. Not that she believes in humans, but does ask for certain saints to "intercede" for her and those around her.

(In Iberian culture people tend to ask favors for different saints. There are some asked by those seeking health, others seeking safety, others seeking blessings and others seeking even love or lost property; the power used is that of God, but they are seen as specific "messengers" for certain deeds.)

[Islamic Commune]

I don't pray 5 times a day, fast during Ramadan (I'm too underweight), or go to Mecca.

Then again I'm still young.

If you have not yet reached puberty, it's fine. Once you have hit puberty, you start to become accountable for all of your actions and inactions.

Brother, if you are a Muslim, then it is your best interest to try to uphold the five pillars. Of course, there are numerous exceptions.

You might not pray five times a day, probably because you don't know how to pray. That is okay, as long as you are making the effort to learn. There are several 'extras' you can add to prayer, like reciting a surah you've memorized, but it's not necessary. As long as you have the fundamentals, it's good enough. If you would like more help, feel free to send me a telegram.

As for Ramadan, I am not sure if that is an excuse. I mean, if you have a problem where not eating or drinking for a time will cause you to collapse, then obviously you cannot fast. For my age, I am also rather underweight. Yet, fasting from sunrise to sunset will not cause me to collapse if I manage my energy wisely. If you absolutely will cause a fatal injury to yourself if you fast, then you are excused. If not, then try to develop some willpower.

I have also not done my pilgrimage, because I cannot afford it, and I have no means to get there. If I cannot afford to go to Makkah, or I have a problem that prevents me from going there (I might have a broken leg or something), then it is pardoned from me, as it would be pardoned from you under the same circumstances.

I want to give a reminder to try not to lag off in your practice. Remember that when you are outside, you are the face of the Muslim Community, so try to be the best of characters as well.

This probably is where Catholics are excluded, then. Not that she believes in humans, but does ask for certain saints to "intercede" for her and those around her.

(In Iberian culture people tend to ask favors for different saints. There are some asked by those seeking health, others seeking safety, others seeking blessings and others seeking even love or lost property; the power used is that of God, but they are seen as specific "messengers" for certain deeds.)

In Islam, we also have certain figures that we know of that are major contributors to the Islamic cause, such as Umar ibn al-Khattab or Saladin or whatnot. However, they are not spiritual figures for us.

The average Muslim rejects the idea that someone must intercede for them in order to contact God. I mean to Muslims, if God is all-seeing, all-knowing, why do people need to ask Clergy to contact God or repent? Why not ask for repentance directly from God?

Islam never really had a clerical body like Christianity had, although there were some failed attempts by the Ottomans. To Muslims, their prayers and repentance are directed only towards God, because God is the only one responsible for those.

Muslims fear that if other are interceding for God, the interceder might eventually be seen as divine, and might be worshipped alongside God. Islam is strictly monotheistic, so this cannot happen in Islam.

Though in Shi'a Islam, the privilege for interpreting the Qur'an is only done by Imams, which are religious leaders who are descendants of the Messenger Muhammad, and their interpretations are seen as absolute. However, those Imams do not intercede for God; Shi'a Muslims still ask only God for repentance and prayer.

[Personal Freedom]

I don't pray 5 times a day, fast during Ramadan (I'm too underweight), or go to Mecca.

Then again I'm still young.

If you have not yet reached puberty, it's fine. Once you have hit puberty, you start to become accountable for all of your actions and inactions.

Brother, if you are a Muslim, then it is your best interest to try to uphold the five pillars. Of course, there are numerous exceptions.

You might not pray five times a day, probably because you don't know how to pray. That is okay, as long as you are making the effort to learn. There are several 'extras' you can add to prayer, like reciting a surah you've memorized, but it's not necessary. As long as you have the fundamentals, it's good enough. If you would like more help, feel free to send me a telegram.

As for Ramadan, I am not sure if that is an excuse. I mean, if you have a problem where not eating or drinking for a time will cause you to collapse, then obviously you cannot fast. For my age, I am also rather underweight. Yet, fasting from sunrise to sunset will not cause me to collapse if I manage my energy wisely. If you absolutely will cause a fatal injury to yourself if you fast, then you are excused. If not, then try to develop some willpower.

I have also not done my pilgrimage, because I cannot afford it, and I have no means to get there. If I cannot afford to go to Makkah, or I have a problem that prevents me from going there (I might have a broken leg or something), then it is pardoned from me, as it would be pardoned from you under the same circumstances.

I want to give a reminder to try not to lag off in your practice. Remember that when you are outside, you are the face of the Muslim Community, so try to be the best of characters as well.

This probably is where Catholics are excluded, then. Not that she believes in humans, but does ask for certain saints to "intercede" for her and those around her.

(In Iberian culture people tend to ask favors for different saints. There are some asked by those seeking health, others seeking safety, others seeking blessings and others seeking even love or lost property; the power used is that of God, but they are seen as specific "messengers" for certain deeds.)

In Islam, we also have certain figures that we know of that are major contributors to the Islamic cause, such as Umar ibn al-Khattab or Saladin or whatnot. However, they are not spiritual figures for us.

The average Muslim rejects the idea that someone must intercede for them in order to contact God. I mean to Muslims, if God is all-seeing, all-knowing, why do people need to ask Clergy to contact God or repent? Why not ask for repentance directly from God?

Islam never really had a clerical body like Christianity had, although there were some failed attempts by the Ottomans. To Muslims, their prayers and repentance are directed only towards God, because God is the only one responsible for those.

Muslims fear that if other are interceding for God, the interceder might eventually be seen as divine, and might be worshipped alongside God. Islam is strictly monotheistic, so this cannot happen in Islam.

Though in Shi'a Islam, the privilege for interpreting the Qur'an is only done by Imams, which are religious leaders who is a descendant of the Messenger Muhammad, and their interpretations are seen as aboslute. In a sense, that is somewhat close to how Catholicism works, excluding the descendant part. Correct me if I'm wrong.

What about Abu Bakr? Was he not a spiritual successor?

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Muslims fear that if other are interceding for God, the interceder might eventually be seen as divine, and might be worshipped alongside God. Islam is strictly monotheistic, so this cannot happen in Islam.

Fun. Sounds like Protestantism. They are also a lot against rich religious symbolism because it is seen as "adoration of images".

It might be seen as extreme cosmic irony, but in my country Catholics much more fear being too dogmatic about life.

Often it seems rather like, instead of polytheism in disguise, that the concept of the Triple God became so expanded that it is even a lot pantheistic-like. The gone spirits aren't held along God as divine 'brothers', but rather a part of a spiritual existence that is a whole powerful driving force, and that they're at the same time just seeking for different faces of the same God. The Bible is very contradictory at times when we compare Old and New Testaments, and to many when it refers to God, it often seems like it is talking about different entities, so people see different aspects in it, some nurturing and some warring. Certain saints are for whatever reason more identified with one of these particular aspects. Mary being by far the most important one.

At least that is what I see with my personal dealing with Catholics... I'm pretty sure that the Church's take on it is a lot different from what our culture actually does.

[Islamic Commune]

What about Abu Bakr? Was he not a spiritual successor?

Abu Bakr was merely the Khalifa of the Muslim community.

Khalifa means two things:
-representative
-Successor

He was termed, "Khalifat Rasul-illah", which means Successor (Representative) of the Messenger of God.

Abu Bakr was a successor of the Messenger in terms of political succession, but not spiritual. Reasons why:
-He was not believed by anyone to have divine revelation
-He was not believed to have divine right of rule.

Abu Bakr was elected by the Muslim Community to succeed the Messenger in order to ensure that the Muslim Community remains united and the message of Islam can carry on. Each tribe had their own representative that pledged their allegiance to Abu Bakr, and that is how he obtained leadership. It wasn't seen as his right to rule.

In fact, the concept of Divine Right of (Person) never really existed in Islam, because Divine Right belongs only to God, no one else. In theory, if a ruler fails to uphold the priorities of Islam in the Muslim Community, they are ousted, because they would be infringing on God's rights. (If you want me to explain that more, just ask).

He was not seen as a holy man by any means, just a leader at the time. Definitely, no Muslim sees Abu Bakr as a spiritual leader of any sorts.


@Degenerate Heart of HetRio:
I was reading a book the other day about the Protestant Reformation, and I was interested in how each sect viewed Islam.

Catholics view Muslims as the first Protestants, and that Protestantism is an Islamic plot to cause religious division. That's not far from the truth, because the Ottomans financed the Protestants a lot.

Protestants on the other hand, view Muslims as, "The Scourge of God" sent to the Christians as punishment for their immorality or something of that sort.

[Puerto Tyranus]

@Degenerate Heart of HetRio:
I was reading a book the other day about the Protestant Reformation, and I was interested in how each sect viewed Islam.

Catholics view Muslims as the first Protestants, and that Protestantism is an Islamic plot to cause religious division. That's not far from the truth, because the Ottomans financed the Protestants a lot.

Protestants on the other hand, view Muslims as, "The Scourge of God" sent to the Christians as punishment for their immorality or something of that sort.

Wow...I didn't think I believed either of those things.

At any rate, on your discussion question, I find myself agreeing. Those who covert can be generally found to be more pious than those who are born into any faith, and, through the same logic, one who chooses to follow a religion without any sort of pressure from any sides to join them can be nearly guaranteed to be very knowledgeable about the Religion of their choosing. My only word of warning is to make sure that, if you really are going to go through with this, you need to regulate most of the aspects of the child's life. You never know where a vulnerable child may find pressure, after all.

[Islamic Commune]

Obviously, some things I have to teach my child are basic manners and the such. The truth is that I have absolutely no influence on my child the second they go to school. Especially where I live in Canada, parents start being less influential on their child as they go to school, and the parent is replaced by the teacher or other students as a source of influence.

The best I can do is educate my child about my religion in an objective way, and explain to them why I do what I do.

For example, I abstain from consuming alcohol. What I can do is buy some alcohol one day and show it to my child, so that he acknowledges it is not forbidden fruit. And then I explain to my child what alcohol does, some of its benefits and negatives. In fact, once my child reaches the age of 13, I can sit with them once every week, showing them a collection of "Taboo" items, and explaining them.

If I just forbid my child from these products without a reason why, they will be curious about it, and might consume it behind my back. If the child knows that alcohol is available at the house and is not forbidden fruit, there will be no forbidden fruit psychology.

[Geilinor]

I have a discussion question, if anyone wants to participate.

Because there is no compulsion in religion in Islam, is it correct to indoctrinate children into Islam? Should children make the final choice once they reach puberty once they want to be a Muslim or not?

I know in Islam, parents have to teach their children about the religion, but to force a child to follow Islam is really not in the ethics of Islam. If I raise a child, I will ask them once they reach 15 whether or not they want to follow Islam or not, and their choice I will accept. What do you guys think about this?

I find that when someone chooses to do something, they are more committed to it, and this applies to religion as well. Those who pledge themselves into Islam when they are mature enough are often more devout than those who were, "born into the faith".

I agree that children shouldn't be forced to follow Islam. Teaching them about it is fine, but they should be responsible for the final decision.

[Anollasia]

I also believe if you can't go to Mecca, giving someone else the opportunity to go is just as good or even better.