Islam/Muslim Discussion Thread

[Arkotania]

Would Uthman ibn Affan be fond of banning folk from Hajj for 10 years due to a government issue?

Of course not.

And that's exactly what the Saudi Arabian government does.

[Prospect Landings]

What's your thoughts on the gap between religion and government, evident mostly in Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is the country that holds two very important cities to the Muslims worldwide. However, the country has some restrictive laws and follow a very strict form of Islam.

For example, doing Hajj without a permit will lead to a 10 year ban from the country. However, Hajj is the 5th pillar of Islam. I understand there necessitates governance of these areas, especially due to the massive number of pilgrims that come in. However, my question is about whether the religion itself can cooperate with the issues of state and governance?

I'll be honest, as a Muslim I find certain actions of Saudi Arabia disappointing. Legally, they are the one's with the rights to govern the cities of Mecca and Medina, as it is within their borders, but on the other hand Islam is an international religion. Can Islam and government really work together, especially in a theocracy?

Uthman ibn Affan is disappointed in you. >:( Islam and government are supposed to work together for proper management of the ummah.

More like distrust and deliberately avoiding each other's spheres of influence, but yes, let's go with that.

[Glorious Wonderland]

My opinion is simple: any just exercise of government (or lack thereof) is a practice of Islam and God's laws regardless of which law used.

And srsly who used Uthman ibn Affan as an example of proper Islamic government

[Arkotania]

Including any law that prohibits you from participating in one of the five pillars of Islam?

So Islam allows any law to prohibit a necessary part of Islam under Islamic law? I think I missed somehing here

[Glorious Wonderland]

Including any law that prohibits you from participating in one of the five pillars of Islam?

So Islam allows any law to prohibit a necessary part of Islam under Islamic law? I think I missed somehing here

I mention 'just'. Like in, 'justice'.

[Arkotania]

The understanding of what is "just" is subjective to the interpreter of what is and isnt.

[Glorious Wonderland]

I perhaps worded it poorly.

'I don't fucking care whether you enforce sharia, secular shit or a stateless society, as long as basic freedoms and justice are guaranteed to its people then it's good and virtuous in Islam.

[The USOT]

Well, we killed christianities legitimacy by mocking it over centuries and pointing out it's absurdities.
Islam is new(ish, this wave at least.) here. You'll pick up some followers, and then we'll whittle down that religion too.
It doesn't bother me what colour the invisible unicorn is, it's still an invisible unicorn.
So, as you said, the bigger trend is toward atheism. I view this as a positive, and don't particularly care which theism picks up off others.

As for what effect this will have on Islam, it depends on the type of converts. Some will likely be of the variety that wants to be holier than thou to prove their Islamic credentials to compensate for their europeanness. These will, hopefully, be a minority, and what we'll instead see is a europeanized version of islam. (I.E, utterly indistinguishable from the europeanized christianity except you say allah instead and go to mosque maybe 3 times a year.)

I think it's interesting to note the at least in Britain, it was a majority of women who actually converted. The western media usually paints Islam as anti-women, so I'm a little surprised. If anything I think this new wave of Muslims could help boost the influence and visibility of the non-asshole interpretation of Islam that's been suffering ever since 9/11.

What would be an absurdity you think pundits could level at Islamic theology? Especially if Islamic culture in Europe becomes more liberal and compatible with Western values?

Just something to bear in mind, women choosing to do something =/= pro women.

Whilst I am by no means comparing Islam to Nazism (forgive the Godwin), it must be remembered that the cry of "Emancipation from Emancipation" was shouted from female supporters of Nazism, and they were not few in number.

People often perform actions which are not in their best interests. Not that I am saying that Islam is by default anti-women, but you shouldnt link women converting to Islam as a sign that it isnt.

[Ereria]

There is nothing in the world I like too see more than a forum discussion about Islam where people that has no idea argue with eachother. Makes me smile.

[Prospect Landings]

There is nothing in the world I like too see more than a forum discussion about Islam where people that has no idea argue with eachother. Makes me smile.

Islam/Muslim Apologetics thread

[Kemalist]

What is your stance on alcohol and pork meat? drinking alcohol is not much of a problem in my Muslim-majority country while pork meat is a "no-no". Is that also the case in other Muslim-majority countries? I assume it's more of a cultural attitude.

[Virana]

What is your stance on alcohol and pork meat? drinking alcohol is not much of a problem in my Muslim-majority country while pork meat is a "no-no". Is that also the case in other Muslim-majority countries? I assume it's more of a cultural attitude.

In Pakistan, pork meat is a no-no and alcohol varies depending on where you are. I'd imagine many wealthy households do drink, but it's usually a taboo of sorts.

These are just observations I made from visiting there a few times. I haven't lived there for an extended period, so I might be a bit off.

[Kemalist]

What is your stance on alcohol and pork meat? drinking alcohol is not much of a problem in my Muslim-majority country while pork meat is a "no-no". Is that also the case in other Muslim-majority countries? I assume it's more of a cultural attitude.

In Pakistan, pork meat is a no-no and alcohol varies depending on where you are. I'd imagine many wealthy households do drink, but it's usually a taboo of sorts.

These are just observations I made from visiting there a few times. I haven't lived there for an extended period, so I might be a bit off.

And what do you think as a Muslim? are alcohol and pork meat equally bad according to Islam? if that's so, I can't understand how there are so much Muslims who don't mind consuming alcohol but get alarmed when it comes to pork meat (even if they're not religious).

Also, I'd come up with the theory that alcohol is not completely banned in Islam.

[Arabic Spain]

In Pakistan, pork meat is a no-no and alcohol varies depending on where you are. I'd imagine many wealthy households do drink, but it's usually a taboo of sorts.

These are just observations I made from visiting there a few times. I haven't lived there for an extended period, so I might be a bit off.

And what do you think as a Muslim? are alcohol and pork meat equally bad according to Islam? if that's so, I can't understand how there are so much Muslims who don't mind consuming alcohol but get alarmed when it comes to pork meat (even if they're not religious).

Also, I'd come up with the theory that alcohol is not completely banned in Islam.

Naw they take God's forgiveness for granted.

[Boomhaueristan]

So if I can ask a question. How can people be fine with the fact that their prophet had relations with a minor?

[Prospect Landings]

In Pakistan, pork meat is a no-no and alcohol varies depending on where you are. I'd imagine many wealthy households do drink, but it's usually a taboo of sorts.

These are just observations I made from visiting there a few times. I haven't lived there for an extended period, so I might be a bit off.

And what do you think as a Muslim? are alcohol and pork meat equally bad according to Islam? if that's so, I can't understand how there are so much Muslims who don't mind consuming alcohol but get alarmed when it comes to pork meat (even if they're not religious).

Also, I'd come up with the theory that alcohol is not completely banned in Islam.

Considering all four schools of Fiqh completely ban the consummation of alcohol, I don't know how you can debate that drinking is permissible. Some Muslims believe the prohibition only applies to wine, but relevant hadiths narrate how the Prophet answered when confronted with the very same question:

"Hadith - Muslim #4963, Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar

Allah's Messenger said: Every intoxicant is Khamr (liquor)"and every intoxicant is forbidden. He who drinks wine in this world and dies while he is addicted to it, not having repented, will not be given a drink in the Hereafter.|

[Kemalist]

So if I can ask a question. How can people be fine with the fact that their prophet had relations with a minor?

Well; that's still practiced in undeveloped parts of the Islamic world as a cultural tradition so I'd say they're fine with the concept after all. But if you ask other muslims, they will reject that claim and take it as a defamation.

Also; blaming Muhammad for pedophilia is as stupid as blaming the rulers of the Middle Ages for not being democratic. People tend to fail to approach to issues in a realistic way and take into consideration various conditions of the time periods.

[Kemalist]

And what do you think as a Muslim? are alcohol and pork meat equally bad according to Islam? if that's so, I can't understand how there are so much Muslims who don't mind consuming alcohol but get alarmed when it comes to pork meat (even if they're not religious).

Also, I'd come up with the theory that alcohol is not completely banned in Islam.

Considering all four schools of Fiqh completely ban the consummation of alcohol, I don't know how you can debate that drinking is permissible. Some Muslims believe the prohibition only applies to wine, but relevant hadiths narrate how the Prophet answered when confronted with the very same question:

"Hadith - Muslim #4963, Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar

Allah's Messenger said: Every intoxicant is Khamr (liquor)"and every intoxicant is forbidden. He who drinks wine in this world and dies while he is addicted to it, not having repented, will not be given a drink in the Hereafter.|

I believe Hadiths shouldn't be given a single credit as it's stated in Qur'an itself that everything's clear and there's no need for other sources.

If alcohol was a sin; it would clearly be said in Qur'an just as pork meat was. I think many Muslims are making a big mistake ignoring this fact and consulting to sources other than Qur'an to learn what's right or wrong.

[Prospect Landings]

Considering all four schools of Fiqh completely ban the consummation of alcohol, I don't know how you can debate that drinking is permissible. Some Muslims believe the prohibition only applies to wine, but relevant hadiths narrate how the Prophet answered when confronted with the very same question:

I believe Hadiths shouldn't be given a single credit as it's stated in Qur'an itself that everything's clear and there's no need for other sources.

If alcohol was a sin; it would clearly be said in Qur'an just as pork meat was. I think many Muslims are making a big mistake ignoring this fact and consulting to sources other than Qur'an to learn what's right or wrong.

The Qur'an cannot function as an ethno-normative (i.e spiritual) text without grounding itself in reality. Interpretation in a vacuum is not an interpretation that should hold weight at all, as it naturally favours personal biases over historical facts. Reading the Qur'an without understanding the narrative which surrounds it, through accurate hadiths, means a person will lack the proper insight to derive the ought from the is. For example, if you read the prohibition against consuming swine, a person might falsely assume that this was a demonstration of naturalist determinism-- that is, because pork carried certain parasitic diseases the Prophet banned it out of scientific ignorance. Despite the fact that it was clear from contemporary sources that the early Muslims already knew about hundreds of poisons and toxins, and avoided them without having to prescribe religious prohibitions.

[Arkotania]

I generally consider the Quran to be something along the lines of a guide. Some rules, some stories, some details and some history, with the intent being to explain the fundementals of Islam without having to list EVERY SINGLE THING...otherwise the Quran would have to come in volumes.

The US constituion works on the same principals really, minus the stories and history. It doesnt specify everything down to the period, but rather leaves areas open for interpretation, becuase its pretty evident times change.

I think the reason religion sometimes appears to be slow in catching up with modern times has more to do with traditionalist interpretations rather than time-appropriate interpretations.

[Glorious Wonderland]

What is your stance on alcohol and pork meat? drinking alcohol is not much of a problem in my Muslim-majority country while pork meat is a "no-no". Is that also the case in other Muslim-majority countries? I assume it's more of a cultural attitude.

I consume neither, but I don't think consumption of either pork or alcohol is equal to apostasy declaration unlike what Hanbalis actually thought. People disobeyed lesser obvious verses of Qur'an everyday, heh.

So if I can ask a question. How can people be fine with the fact that their prophet had relations with a minor?

Understanding the age when said Prophet lived, considering its relevance with the faith, understanding him not as divine incarnation with GaryStu personality but a human, noting the radically ranged age of estimation of Aisha's marriage and consummation with the Prophet and doubting hadiths as credible source, even include those of Imam Bukhari's.

Personally, I'm leaning to Qur'anism. I consider hadiths as supplementary source and cultural interpretation, which shall be filtered with 'take what are appropriate for today and dump what aren't'.

[Dasha Kovachevich]

What is your stance on alcohol and pork meat? drinking alcohol is not much of a problem in my Muslim-majority country while pork meat is a "no-no". Is that also the case in other Muslim-majority countries? I assume it's more of a cultural attitude.

I consume neither, but I don't think consumption of either pork or alcohol is equal to apostasy declaration unlike what Hanbalis actually thought. People disobeyed lesser obvious verses of Qur'an everyday, heh.

So if I can ask a question. How can people be fine with the fact that their prophet had relations with a minor?

Understanding the age when said Prophet lived, considering its relevance with the faith, understanding him not as divine incarnation with GaryStu personality but a human, noting the radically ranged age of estimation of Aisha's marriage and consummation with the Prophet and doubting hadiths as credible source, even include those of Imam Bukhari's.

Personally, I'm leaning to Qur'anism. I consider hadiths as supplementary source and cultural interpretation, which shall be filtered with 'take what are appropriate for today and dump what aren't'.

Im a quranist, but that term sometimes makes other muslims see me as "not one of them". In islam we are told to obey allah and follow the prophet, which is the guidence in the quran. My dad drinks, moderately, because the quran doesnt say its haram, just implies that there are bad things to it. Aishas age is irrelevant and not mentioned in the quran. There are many questionable hadiths that were written to insult islam. And all were written way after the death of the prophet. If there are muslims that dont see what I see then thats ok. Allah knows best and we should be able to talk about our differences like civilized people

[Kemalist]

I consume neither, but I don't think consumption of either pork or alcohol is equal to apostasy declaration unlike what Hanbalis actually thought. People disobeyed lesser obvious verses of Qur'an everyday, heh.

Understanding the age when said Prophet lived, considering its relevance with the faith, understanding him not as divine incarnation with GaryStu personality but a human, noting the radically ranged age of estimation of Aisha's marriage and consummation with the Prophet and doubting hadiths as credible source, even include those of Imam Bukhari's.

Personally, I'm leaning to Qur'anism. I consider hadiths as supplementary source and cultural interpretation, which shall be filtered with 'take what are appropriate for today and dump what aren't'.

Im a quranist, but that term sometimes makes other muslims see me as "not one of them". In islam we are told to obey allah and follow the prophet, which is the guidence in the quran. My dad drinks, moderately, because the quran doesnt say its haram, just implies that there are bad things to it. Aishas age is irrelevant and not mentioned in the quran. There are many questionable hadiths that were written to insult islam. And all were written way after the death of the prophet. If there are muslims that dont see what I see then thats ok. Allah knows best and we should be able to talk about our differences like civilized people

I completely agree with you. That's how a Muslim should be like.

[Dasha Kovachevich]

I completely agree with you. That's how a Muslim should be like.

thank you! good to see I have support!

[Western Arab Empire]

I consume neither, but I don't think consumption of either pork or alcohol is equal to apostasy declaration unlike what Hanbalis actually thought. People disobeyed lesser obvious verses of Qur'an everyday, heh.

Understanding the age when said Prophet lived, considering its relevance with the faith, understanding him not as divine incarnation with GaryStu personality but a human, noting the radically ranged age of estimation of Aisha's marriage and consummation with the Prophet and doubting hadiths as credible source, even include those of Imam Bukhari's.

Personally, I'm leaning to Qur'anism. I consider hadiths as supplementary source and cultural interpretation, which shall be filtered with 'take what are appropriate for today and dump what aren't'.

Im a quranist, but that term sometimes makes other muslims see me as "not one of them". In islam we are told to obey allah and follow the prophet, which is the guidence in the quran. My dad drinks, moderately, because the quran doesnt say its haram, just implies that there are bad things to it. Aishas age is irrelevant and not mentioned in the quran. There are many questionable hadiths that were written to insult islam. And all were written way after the death of the prophet. If there are muslims that dont see what I see then thats ok. Allah knows best and we should be able to talk about our differences like civilized people

I disagree with your views. As a Hanafi, I believe that Islam's teachings are based on both the Quran and Sunnah. According to this jurisprudence, to reject the Ahadith is Kufr or Transgression depending on the Hadith and it's chain of narrators. And even in the Quran, it is mentioned that drinking alcohol is sin (reference; 2:219). Hadith have a grading scale to determine whether they are trustworthy or not. I mean not to insult you but rather to express my opinion and defense for my beliefs.