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Islam/Muslim Discussion Thread

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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To which branch of Islam do you belong?

Sunni
164
41%
Shia
53
13%
Ibadi
15
4%
Ahmadiyya
10
2%
Sufi
31
8%
Nondenominational
47
12%
Other
84
21%
 
Total votes : 404

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Arkotania
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Founded: Sep 18, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Arkotania » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:04 am

Czechanada wrote:
Arkotania wrote:
Would Uthman ibn Affan be fond of banning folk from Hajj for 10 years due to a government issue?


Of course not.


And that's exactly what the Saudi Arabian government does.
Mostly back from a long hiatus from the forums
Arkania 5 wrote:
Arkotania wrote:Matt Ward


No.

Nononononononononono

Gauthier wrote:
Arkotania wrote:
Then your testicles become strange tentacles.


And then you make films in Japan.

Ovisterra wrote:
Oceanic people wrote:where lives are at steak


I try not to point out people's spelling errors all the time, but this one was brilliant.


Nationstatelandsville wrote:
Arkotania wrote:Or maybe NS is also a degraded society.

This. Definitely this.

Neo Arcad wrote:
Qatarab(Arkotania Puppet) wrote:Where's my torch? Time to burn some courts down.


Oh, you crazy Muslim you!

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Prospect Landings
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Posts: 636
Founded: Jun 21, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Prospect Landings » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:56 pm

Czechanada wrote:
Arkotania wrote:What's your thoughts on the gap between religion and government, evident mostly in Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is the country that holds two very important cities to the Muslims worldwide. However, the country has some restrictive laws and follow a very strict form of Islam.

For example, doing Hajj without a permit will lead to a 10 year ban from the country. However, Hajj is the 5th pillar of Islam. I understand there necessitates governance of these areas, especially due to the massive number of pilgrims that come in. However, my question is about whether the religion itself can cooperate with the issues of state and governance?

I'll be honest, as a Muslim I find certain actions of Saudi Arabia disappointing. Legally, they are the one's with the rights to govern the cities of Mecca and Medina, as it is within their borders, but on the other hand Islam is an international religion. Can Islam and government really work together, especially in a theocracy?


Uthman ibn Affan is disappointed in you. >:( Islam and government are supposed to work together for proper management of the ummah.


More like distrust and deliberately avoiding each other's spheres of influence, but yes, let's go with that.
Last edited by Prospect Landings on Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Glorious Wonderland
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Posts: 136
Founded: Nov 18, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Glorious Wonderland » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:31 pm

My opinion is simple: any just exercise of government (or lack thereof) is a practice of Islam and God's laws regardless of which law used.

And srsly who used Uthman ibn Affan as an example of proper Islamic government

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Arkotania
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Founded: Sep 18, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Arkotania » Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:03 pm

Including any law that prohibits you from participating in one of the five pillars of Islam?

So Islam allows any law to prohibit a necessary part of Islam under Islamic law? I think I missed somehing here :blink:
Mostly back from a long hiatus from the forums
Arkania 5 wrote:
Arkotania wrote:Matt Ward


No.

Nononononononononono

Gauthier wrote:
Arkotania wrote:
Then your testicles become strange tentacles.


And then you make films in Japan.

Ovisterra wrote:
Oceanic people wrote:where lives are at steak


I try not to point out people's spelling errors all the time, but this one was brilliant.


Nationstatelandsville wrote:
Arkotania wrote:Or maybe NS is also a degraded society.

This. Definitely this.

Neo Arcad wrote:
Qatarab(Arkotania Puppet) wrote:Where's my torch? Time to burn some courts down.


Oh, you crazy Muslim you!

User avatar
Glorious Wonderland
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Posts: 136
Founded: Nov 18, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Glorious Wonderland » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:09 am

Arkotania wrote:Including any law that prohibits you from participating in one of the five pillars of Islam?

So Islam allows any law to prohibit a necessary part of Islam under Islamic law? I think I missed somehing here :blink:

I mention 'just'. Like in, 'justice'.

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Arkotania
Minister
 
Posts: 2723
Founded: Sep 18, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Arkotania » Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:49 am

The understanding of what is "just" is subjective to the interpreter of what is and isnt.
Mostly back from a long hiatus from the forums
Arkania 5 wrote:
Arkotania wrote:Matt Ward


No.

Nononononononononono

Gauthier wrote:
Arkotania wrote:
Then your testicles become strange tentacles.


And then you make films in Japan.

Ovisterra wrote:
Oceanic people wrote:where lives are at steak


I try not to point out people's spelling errors all the time, but this one was brilliant.


Nationstatelandsville wrote:
Arkotania wrote:Or maybe NS is also a degraded society.

This. Definitely this.

Neo Arcad wrote:
Qatarab(Arkotania Puppet) wrote:Where's my torch? Time to burn some courts down.


Oh, you crazy Muslim you!

User avatar
Glorious Wonderland
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 136
Founded: Nov 18, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Glorious Wonderland » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:37 pm

I perhaps worded it poorly.

'I don't fucking care whether you enforce sharia, secular shit or a stateless society, as long as basic freedoms and justice are guaranteed to its people then it's good and virtuous in Islam.

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The USOT
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5862
Founded: Mar 09, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby The USOT » Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:43 pm

Sulamalik wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
Well, we killed christianities legitimacy by mocking it over centuries and pointing out it's absurdities.
Islam is new(ish, this wave at least.) here. You'll pick up some followers, and then we'll whittle down that religion too.
It doesn't bother me what colour the invisible unicorn is, it's still an invisible unicorn.
So, as you said, the bigger trend is toward atheism. I view this as a positive, and don't particularly care which theism picks up off others.

As for what effect this will have on Islam, it depends on the type of converts. Some will likely be of the variety that wants to be holier than thou to prove their Islamic credentials to compensate for their europeanness. These will, hopefully, be a minority, and what we'll instead see is a europeanized version of islam. (I.E, utterly indistinguishable from the europeanized christianity except you say allah instead and go to mosque maybe 3 times a year.)



I think it's interesting to note the at least in Britain, it was a majority of women who actually converted. The western media usually paints Islam as anti-women, so I'm a little surprised. If anything I think this new wave of Muslims could help boost the influence and visibility of the non-asshole interpretation of Islam that's been suffering ever since 9/11.

What would be an absurdity you think pundits could level at Islamic theology? Especially if Islamic culture in Europe becomes more liberal and compatible with Western values?
Just something to bear in mind, women choosing to do something =/= pro women.

Whilst I am by no means comparing Islam to Nazism (forgive the Godwin), it must be remembered that the cry of "Emancipation from Emancipation" was shouted from female supporters of Nazism, and they were not few in number.

People often perform actions which are not in their best interests. Not that I am saying that Islam is by default anti-women, but you shouldnt link women converting to Islam as a sign that it isnt.
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Contrary to the propaganda, we live in probably the least materialistic culture in history. If we cared about the things of the world, we would treat them quite differently. We would be concerned with their materiality. We would be interested in their beginnings and their ends, before and after they left our grasp.

Peter Timmerman, “Defending Materialism"

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Ereria
Diplomat
 
Posts: 844
Founded: Feb 29, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Ereria » Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:41 pm

There is nothing in the world I like too see more than a forum discussion about Islam where people that has no idea argue with eachother. Makes me smile.
"Vatan savunmasında gereğinden fazla merhamet vatana ihanettir."
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Kılıç kınından çıkmadıkça it sürüsü dağılmaz.

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Prospect Landings
Diplomat
 
Posts: 636
Founded: Jun 21, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Prospect Landings » Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:45 pm

Ereria wrote:There is nothing in the world I like too see more than a forum discussion about Islam where people that has no idea argue with eachother. Makes me smile.


Islam/Muslim Apologetics thread
Goin' back to Tangier, with some Jordans and a Spear

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Kemalist
Senator
 
Posts: 4470
Founded: Oct 10, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Kemalist » Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:11 pm

What is your stance on alcohol and pork meat? drinking alcohol is not much of a problem in my Muslim-majority country while pork meat is a "no-no". Is that also the case in other Muslim-majority countries? I assume it's more of a cultural attitude.
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Virana
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Posts: 2547
Founded: Jan 04, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Virana » Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:25 pm

Kemalist wrote:What is your stance on alcohol and pork meat? drinking alcohol is not much of a problem in my Muslim-majority country while pork meat is a "no-no". Is that also the case in other Muslim-majority countries? I assume it's more of a cultural attitude.

In Pakistan, pork meat is a no-no and alcohol varies depending on where you are. I'd imagine many wealthy households do drink, but it's usually a taboo of sorts.

These are just observations I made from visiting there a few times. I haven't lived there for an extended period, so I might be a bit off.
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Kemalist
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Posts: 4470
Founded: Oct 10, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Kemalist » Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:47 pm

Virana wrote:
Kemalist wrote:What is your stance on alcohol and pork meat? drinking alcohol is not much of a problem in my Muslim-majority country while pork meat is a "no-no". Is that also the case in other Muslim-majority countries? I assume it's more of a cultural attitude.

In Pakistan, pork meat is a no-no and alcohol varies depending on where you are. I'd imagine many wealthy households do drink, but it's usually a taboo of sorts.

These are just observations I made from visiting there a few times. I haven't lived there for an extended period, so I might be a bit off.


And what do you think as a Muslim? are alcohol and pork meat equally bad according to Islam? if that's so, I can't understand how there are so much Muslims who don't mind consuming alcohol but get alarmed when it comes to pork meat (even if they're not religious).

Also, I'd come up with the theory that alcohol is not completely banned in Islam.
Last edited by Kemalist on Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Arabic Spain
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Founded: Aug 31, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Arabic Spain » Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:31 pm

Kemalist wrote:
Virana wrote:In Pakistan, pork meat is a no-no and alcohol varies depending on where you are. I'd imagine many wealthy households do drink, but it's usually a taboo of sorts.

These are just observations I made from visiting there a few times. I haven't lived there for an extended period, so I might be a bit off.


And what do you think as a Muslim? are alcohol and pork meat equally bad according to Islam? if that's so, I can't understand how there are so much Muslims who don't mind consuming alcohol but get alarmed when it comes to pork meat (even if they're not religious).

Also, I'd come up with the theory that alcohol is not completely banned in Islam.


Naw they take God's forgiveness for granted.
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http://www.islamondemand.com/30_facts.html Also,My nation is now called Al-Andulasia thank you.

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Boomhaueristan
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Founded: Jan 07, 2014
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Postby Boomhaueristan » Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:45 pm

So if I can ask a question. How can people be fine with the fact that their prophet had relations with a minor?
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Prospect Landings
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Posts: 636
Founded: Jun 21, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Prospect Landings » Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:47 pm

Kemalist wrote:
Virana wrote:In Pakistan, pork meat is a no-no and alcohol varies depending on where you are. I'd imagine many wealthy households do drink, but it's usually a taboo of sorts.

These are just observations I made from visiting there a few times. I haven't lived there for an extended period, so I might be a bit off.


And what do you think as a Muslim? are alcohol and pork meat equally bad according to Islam? if that's so, I can't understand how there are so much Muslims who don't mind consuming alcohol but get alarmed when it comes to pork meat (even if they're not religious).

Also, I'd come up with the theory that alcohol is not completely banned in Islam.


Considering all four schools of Fiqh completely ban the consummation of alcohol, I don't know how you can debate that drinking is permissible. Some Muslims believe the prohibition only applies to wine, but relevant hadiths narrate how the Prophet answered when confronted with the very same question:

"Hadith - Muslim #4963, Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar

Allah's Messenger said: Every intoxicant is Khamr (liquor)"and every intoxicant is forbidden. He who drinks wine in this world and dies while he is addicted to it, not having repented, will not be given a drink in the Hereafter.|
Goin' back to Tangier, with some Jordans and a Spear

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Kemalist
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Posts: 4470
Founded: Oct 10, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Kemalist » Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:03 pm

Boomhaueristan wrote:So if I can ask a question. How can people be fine with the fact that their prophet had relations with a minor?


Well; that's still practiced in undeveloped parts of the Islamic world as a cultural tradition so I'd say they're fine with the concept after all. But if you ask other muslims, they will reject that claim and take it as a defamation.

Also; blaming Muhammad for pedophilia is as stupid as blaming the rulers of the Middle Ages for not being democratic. People tend to fail to approach to issues in a realistic way and take into consideration various conditions of the time periods.
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Kemalist
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Founded: Oct 10, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Kemalist » Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:09 pm

Prospect Landings wrote:
Kemalist wrote:
And what do you think as a Muslim? are alcohol and pork meat equally bad according to Islam? if that's so, I can't understand how there are so much Muslims who don't mind consuming alcohol but get alarmed when it comes to pork meat (even if they're not religious).

Also, I'd come up with the theory that alcohol is not completely banned in Islam.


Considering all four schools of Fiqh completely ban the consummation of alcohol, I don't know how you can debate that drinking is permissible. Some Muslims believe the prohibition only applies to wine, but relevant hadiths narrate how the Prophet answered when confronted with the very same question:

"Hadith - Muslim #4963, Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar

Allah's Messenger said: Every intoxicant is Khamr (liquor)"and every intoxicant is forbidden. He who drinks wine in this world and dies while he is addicted to it, not having repented, will not be given a drink in the Hereafter.|


I believe Hadiths shouldn't be given a single credit as it's stated in Qur'an itself that everything's clear and there's no need for other sources.

If alcohol was a sin; it would clearly be said in Qur'an just as pork meat was. I think many Muslims are making a big mistake ignoring this fact and consulting to sources other than Qur'an to learn what's right or wrong.
Last edited by Kemalist on Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Prospect Landings
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Founded: Jun 21, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Prospect Landings » Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:27 pm

Kemalist wrote:
Prospect Landings wrote:
Considering all four schools of Fiqh completely ban the consummation of alcohol, I don't know how you can debate that drinking is permissible. Some Muslims believe the prohibition only applies to wine, but relevant hadiths narrate how the Prophet answered when confronted with the very same question:



I believe Hadiths shouldn't be given a single credit as it's stated in Qur'an itself that everything's clear and there's no need for other sources.

If alcohol was a sin; it would clearly be said in Qur'an just as pork meat was. I think many Muslims are making a big mistake ignoring this fact and consulting to sources other than Qur'an to learn what's right or wrong.


The Qur'an cannot function as an ethno-normative (i.e spiritual) text without grounding itself in reality. Interpretation in a vacuum is not an interpretation that should hold weight at all, as it naturally favours personal biases over historical facts. Reading the Qur'an without understanding the narrative which surrounds it, through accurate hadiths, means a person will lack the proper insight to derive the ought from the is. For example, if you read the prohibition against consuming swine, a person might falsely assume that this was a demonstration of naturalist determinism-- that is, because pork carried certain parasitic diseases the Prophet banned it out of scientific ignorance. Despite the fact that it was clear from contemporary sources that the early Muslims already knew about hundreds of poisons and toxins, and avoided them without having to prescribe religious prohibitions.
Last edited by Prospect Landings on Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Arkotania
Minister
 
Posts: 2723
Founded: Sep 18, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Arkotania » Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:34 am

I generally consider the Quran to be something along the lines of a guide. Some rules, some stories, some details and some history, with the intent being to explain the fundementals of Islam without having to list EVERY SINGLE THING...otherwise the Quran would have to come in volumes.

The US constituion works on the same principals really, minus the stories and history. It doesnt specify everything down to the period, but rather leaves areas open for interpretation, becuase its pretty evident times change.

I think the reason religion sometimes appears to be slow in catching up with modern times has more to do with traditionalist interpretations rather than time-appropriate interpretations.
Mostly back from a long hiatus from the forums
Arkania 5 wrote:
Arkotania wrote:Matt Ward


No.

Nononononononononono

Gauthier wrote:
Arkotania wrote:
Then your testicles become strange tentacles.


And then you make films in Japan.

Ovisterra wrote:
Oceanic people wrote:where lives are at steak


I try not to point out people's spelling errors all the time, but this one was brilliant.


Nationstatelandsville wrote:
Arkotania wrote:Or maybe NS is also a degraded society.

This. Definitely this.

Neo Arcad wrote:
Qatarab(Arkotania Puppet) wrote:Where's my torch? Time to burn some courts down.


Oh, you crazy Muslim you!

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Glorious Wonderland
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Posts: 136
Founded: Nov 18, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Glorious Wonderland » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:53 am

Kemalist wrote:What is your stance on alcohol and pork meat? drinking alcohol is not much of a problem in my Muslim-majority country while pork meat is a "no-no". Is that also the case in other Muslim-majority countries? I assume it's more of a cultural attitude.

I consume neither, but I don't think consumption of either pork or alcohol is equal to apostasy declaration unlike what Hanbalis actually thought. People disobeyed lesser obvious verses of Qur'an everyday, heh.
Boomhaueristan wrote:So if I can ask a question. How can people be fine with the fact that their prophet had relations with a minor?

Understanding the age when said Prophet lived, considering its relevance with the faith, understanding him not as divine incarnation with GaryStu personality but a human, noting the radically ranged age of estimation of Aisha's marriage and consummation with the Prophet and doubting hadiths as credible source, even include those of Imam Bukhari's.

Personally, I'm leaning to Qur'anism. I consider hadiths as supplementary source and cultural interpretation, which shall be filtered with 'take what are appropriate for today and dump what aren't'.

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Dasha Kovachevich
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 451
Founded: Jul 25, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Dasha Kovachevich » Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:15 pm

Glorious Wonderland wrote:
Kemalist wrote:What is your stance on alcohol and pork meat? drinking alcohol is not much of a problem in my Muslim-majority country while pork meat is a "no-no". Is that also the case in other Muslim-majority countries? I assume it's more of a cultural attitude.

I consume neither, but I don't think consumption of either pork or alcohol is equal to apostasy declaration unlike what Hanbalis actually thought. People disobeyed lesser obvious verses of Qur'an everyday, heh.
Boomhaueristan wrote:So if I can ask a question. How can people be fine with the fact that their prophet had relations with a minor?

Understanding the age when said Prophet lived, considering its relevance with the faith, understanding him not as divine incarnation with GaryStu personality but a human, noting the radically ranged age of estimation of Aisha's marriage and consummation with the Prophet and doubting hadiths as credible source, even include those of Imam Bukhari's.

Personally, I'm leaning to Qur'anism. I consider hadiths as supplementary source and cultural interpretation, which shall be filtered with 'take what are appropriate for today and dump what aren't'.


Im a quranist, but that term sometimes makes other muslims see me as "not one of them". In islam we are told to obey allah and follow the prophet, which is the guidence in the quran. My dad drinks, moderately, because the quran doesnt say its haram, just implies that there are bad things to it. Aishas age is irrelevant and not mentioned in the quran. There are many questionable hadiths that were written to insult islam. And all were written way after the death of the prophet. If there are muslims that dont see what I see then thats ok. Allah knows best and we should be able to talk about our differences like civilized people
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Kemalist
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Posts: 4470
Founded: Oct 10, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Kemalist » Sun Feb 09, 2014 5:00 pm

Dasha Kovachevich wrote:
Glorious Wonderland wrote:I consume neither, but I don't think consumption of either pork or alcohol is equal to apostasy declaration unlike what Hanbalis actually thought. People disobeyed lesser obvious verses of Qur'an everyday, heh.

Understanding the age when said Prophet lived, considering its relevance with the faith, understanding him not as divine incarnation with GaryStu personality but a human, noting the radically ranged age of estimation of Aisha's marriage and consummation with the Prophet and doubting hadiths as credible source, even include those of Imam Bukhari's.

Personally, I'm leaning to Qur'anism. I consider hadiths as supplementary source and cultural interpretation, which shall be filtered with 'take what are appropriate for today and dump what aren't'.


Im a quranist, but that term sometimes makes other muslims see me as "not one of them". In islam we are told to obey allah and follow the prophet, which is the guidence in the quran. My dad drinks, moderately, because the quran doesnt say its haram, just implies that there are bad things to it. Aishas age is irrelevant and not mentioned in the quran. There are many questionable hadiths that were written to insult islam. And all were written way after the death of the prophet. If there are muslims that dont see what I see then thats ok. Allah knows best and we should be able to talk about our differences like civilized people


I completely agree with you. That's how a Muslim should be like.
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Dasha Kovachevich
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Posts: 451
Founded: Jul 25, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Dasha Kovachevich » Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:15 pm

Kemalist wrote:I completely agree with you. That's how a Muslim should be like.

thank you! good to see I have support! :hug:
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Western Arab Empire
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Posts: 870
Founded: Jul 18, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Western Arab Empire » Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:15 pm

Dasha Kovachevich wrote:
Glorious Wonderland wrote:I consume neither, but I don't think consumption of either pork or alcohol is equal to apostasy declaration unlike what Hanbalis actually thought. People disobeyed lesser obvious verses of Qur'an everyday, heh.

Understanding the age when said Prophet lived, considering its relevance with the faith, understanding him not as divine incarnation with GaryStu personality but a human, noting the radically ranged age of estimation of Aisha's marriage and consummation with the Prophet and doubting hadiths as credible source, even include those of Imam Bukhari's.

Personally, I'm leaning to Qur'anism. I consider hadiths as supplementary source and cultural interpretation, which shall be filtered with 'take what are appropriate for today and dump what aren't'.


Im a quranist, but that term sometimes makes other muslims see me as "not one of them". In islam we are told to obey allah and follow the prophet, which is the guidence in the quran. My dad drinks, moderately, because the quran doesnt say its haram, just implies that there are bad things to it. Aishas age is irrelevant and not mentioned in the quran. There are many questionable hadiths that were written to insult islam. And all were written way after the death of the prophet. If there are muslims that dont see what I see then thats ok. Allah knows best and we should be able to talk about our differences like civilized people

I disagree with your views. As a Hanafi, I believe that Islam's teachings are based on both the Quran and Sunnah. According to this jurisprudence, to reject the Ahadith is Kufr or Transgression depending on the Hadith and it's chain of narrators. And even in the Quran, it is mentioned that drinking alcohol is sin (reference; 2:219). Hadith have a grading scale to determine whether they are trustworthy or not. I mean not to insult you but rather to express my opinion and defense for my beliefs.

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