And that's exactly what the Saudi Arabian government does.
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by Prospect Landings » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:56 pm
Czechanada wrote:Arkotania wrote:What's your thoughts on the gap between religion and government, evident mostly in Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is the country that holds two very important cities to the Muslims worldwide. However, the country has some restrictive laws and follow a very strict form of Islam.
For example, doing Hajj without a permit will lead to a 10 year ban from the country. However, Hajj is the 5th pillar of Islam. I understand there necessitates governance of these areas, especially due to the massive number of pilgrims that come in. However, my question is about whether the religion itself can cooperate with the issues of state and governance?
I'll be honest, as a Muslim I find certain actions of Saudi Arabia disappointing. Legally, they are the one's with the rights to govern the cities of Mecca and Medina, as it is within their borders, but on the other hand Islam is an international religion. Can Islam and government really work together, especially in a theocracy?
Uthman ibn Affan is disappointed in you. >:( Islam and government are supposed to work together for proper management of the ummah.
by Glorious Wonderland » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:31 pm
by Arkotania » Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:03 pm
by Glorious Wonderland » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:09 am
Arkotania wrote:Including any law that prohibits you from participating in one of the five pillars of Islam?
So Islam allows any law to prohibit a necessary part of Islam under Islamic law? I think I missed somehing here
by Glorious Wonderland » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:37 pm
by The USOT » Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:43 pm
Just something to bear in mind, women choosing to do something =/= pro women.Sulamalik wrote:Ostroeuropa wrote:
Well, we killed christianities legitimacy by mocking it over centuries and pointing out it's absurdities.
Islam is new(ish, this wave at least.) here. You'll pick up some followers, and then we'll whittle down that religion too.
It doesn't bother me what colour the invisible unicorn is, it's still an invisible unicorn.
So, as you said, the bigger trend is toward atheism. I view this as a positive, and don't particularly care which theism picks up off others.
As for what effect this will have on Islam, it depends on the type of converts. Some will likely be of the variety that wants to be holier than thou to prove their Islamic credentials to compensate for their europeanness. These will, hopefully, be a minority, and what we'll instead see is a europeanized version of islam. (I.E, utterly indistinguishable from the europeanized christianity except you say allah instead and go to mosque maybe 3 times a year.)
I think it's interesting to note the at least in Britain, it was a majority of women who actually converted. The western media usually paints Islam as anti-women, so I'm a little surprised. If anything I think this new wave of Muslims could help boost the influence and visibility of the non-asshole interpretation of Islam that's been suffering ever since 9/11.
What would be an absurdity you think pundits could level at Islamic theology? Especially if Islamic culture in Europe becomes more liberal and compatible with Western values?
by Ereria » Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:41 pm
by Prospect Landings » Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:45 pm
Ereria wrote:There is nothing in the world I like too see more than a forum discussion about Islam where people that has no idea argue with eachother. Makes me smile.
by Kemalist » Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:11 pm
by Virana » Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:25 pm
Kemalist wrote:What is your stance on alcohol and pork meat? drinking alcohol is not much of a problem in my Muslim-majority country while pork meat is a "no-no". Is that also the case in other Muslim-majority countries? I assume it's more of a cultural attitude.
by Kemalist » Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:47 pm
Virana wrote:Kemalist wrote:What is your stance on alcohol and pork meat? drinking alcohol is not much of a problem in my Muslim-majority country while pork meat is a "no-no". Is that also the case in other Muslim-majority countries? I assume it's more of a cultural attitude.
In Pakistan, pork meat is a no-no and alcohol varies depending on where you are. I'd imagine many wealthy households do drink, but it's usually a taboo of sorts.
These are just observations I made from visiting there a few times. I haven't lived there for an extended period, so I might be a bit off.
by Arabic Spain » Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:31 pm
Kemalist wrote:Virana wrote:In Pakistan, pork meat is a no-no and alcohol varies depending on where you are. I'd imagine many wealthy households do drink, but it's usually a taboo of sorts.
These are just observations I made from visiting there a few times. I haven't lived there for an extended period, so I might be a bit off.
And what do you think as a Muslim? are alcohol and pork meat equally bad according to Islam? if that's so, I can't understand how there are so much Muslims who don't mind consuming alcohol but get alarmed when it comes to pork meat (even if they're not religious).
Also, I'd come up with the theory that alcohol is not completely banned in Islam.
by Boomhaueristan » Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:45 pm
by Prospect Landings » Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:47 pm
Kemalist wrote:Virana wrote:In Pakistan, pork meat is a no-no and alcohol varies depending on where you are. I'd imagine many wealthy households do drink, but it's usually a taboo of sorts.
These are just observations I made from visiting there a few times. I haven't lived there for an extended period, so I might be a bit off.
And what do you think as a Muslim? are alcohol and pork meat equally bad according to Islam? if that's so, I can't understand how there are so much Muslims who don't mind consuming alcohol but get alarmed when it comes to pork meat (even if they're not religious).
Also, I'd come up with the theory that alcohol is not completely banned in Islam.
"Hadith - Muslim #4963, Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar
Allah's Messenger said: Every intoxicant is Khamr (liquor)"and every intoxicant is forbidden. He who drinks wine in this world and dies while he is addicted to it, not having repented, will not be given a drink in the Hereafter.|
by Kemalist » Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:03 pm
Boomhaueristan wrote:So if I can ask a question. How can people be fine with the fact that their prophet had relations with a minor?
by Kemalist » Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:09 pm
Prospect Landings wrote:Kemalist wrote:
And what do you think as a Muslim? are alcohol and pork meat equally bad according to Islam? if that's so, I can't understand how there are so much Muslims who don't mind consuming alcohol but get alarmed when it comes to pork meat (even if they're not religious).
Also, I'd come up with the theory that alcohol is not completely banned in Islam.
Considering all four schools of Fiqh completely ban the consummation of alcohol, I don't know how you can debate that drinking is permissible. Some Muslims believe the prohibition only applies to wine, but relevant hadiths narrate how the Prophet answered when confronted with the very same question:"Hadith - Muslim #4963, Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar
Allah's Messenger said: Every intoxicant is Khamr (liquor)"and every intoxicant is forbidden. He who drinks wine in this world and dies while he is addicted to it, not having repented, will not be given a drink in the Hereafter.|
by Prospect Landings » Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:27 pm
Kemalist wrote:Prospect Landings wrote:
Considering all four schools of Fiqh completely ban the consummation of alcohol, I don't know how you can debate that drinking is permissible. Some Muslims believe the prohibition only applies to wine, but relevant hadiths narrate how the Prophet answered when confronted with the very same question:
I believe Hadiths shouldn't be given a single credit as it's stated in Qur'an itself that everything's clear and there's no need for other sources.
If alcohol was a sin; it would clearly be said in Qur'an just as pork meat was. I think many Muslims are making a big mistake ignoring this fact and consulting to sources other than Qur'an to learn what's right or wrong.
by Arkotania » Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:34 am
by Glorious Wonderland » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:53 am
Kemalist wrote:What is your stance on alcohol and pork meat? drinking alcohol is not much of a problem in my Muslim-majority country while pork meat is a "no-no". Is that also the case in other Muslim-majority countries? I assume it's more of a cultural attitude.
Boomhaueristan wrote:So if I can ask a question. How can people be fine with the fact that their prophet had relations with a minor?
by Dasha Kovachevich » Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:15 pm
Glorious Wonderland wrote:Kemalist wrote:What is your stance on alcohol and pork meat? drinking alcohol is not much of a problem in my Muslim-majority country while pork meat is a "no-no". Is that also the case in other Muslim-majority countries? I assume it's more of a cultural attitude.
I consume neither, but I don't think consumption of either pork or alcohol is equal to apostasy declaration unlike what Hanbalis actually thought. People disobeyed lesser obvious verses of Qur'an everyday, heh.Boomhaueristan wrote:So if I can ask a question. How can people be fine with the fact that their prophet had relations with a minor?
Understanding the age when said Prophet lived, considering its relevance with the faith, understanding him not as divine incarnation with GaryStu personality but a human, noting the radically ranged age of estimation of Aisha's marriage and consummation with the Prophet and doubting hadiths as credible source, even include those of Imam Bukhari's.
Personally, I'm leaning to Qur'anism. I consider hadiths as supplementary source and cultural interpretation, which shall be filtered with 'take what are appropriate for today and dump what aren't'.
by Kemalist » Sun Feb 09, 2014 5:00 pm
Dasha Kovachevich wrote:Glorious Wonderland wrote:I consume neither, but I don't think consumption of either pork or alcohol is equal to apostasy declaration unlike what Hanbalis actually thought. People disobeyed lesser obvious verses of Qur'an everyday, heh.
Understanding the age when said Prophet lived, considering its relevance with the faith, understanding him not as divine incarnation with GaryStu personality but a human, noting the radically ranged age of estimation of Aisha's marriage and consummation with the Prophet and doubting hadiths as credible source, even include those of Imam Bukhari's.
Personally, I'm leaning to Qur'anism. I consider hadiths as supplementary source and cultural interpretation, which shall be filtered with 'take what are appropriate for today and dump what aren't'.
Im a quranist, but that term sometimes makes other muslims see me as "not one of them". In islam we are told to obey allah and follow the prophet, which is the guidence in the quran. My dad drinks, moderately, because the quran doesnt say its haram, just implies that there are bad things to it. Aishas age is irrelevant and not mentioned in the quran. There are many questionable hadiths that were written to insult islam. And all were written way after the death of the prophet. If there are muslims that dont see what I see then thats ok. Allah knows best and we should be able to talk about our differences like civilized people
by Dasha Kovachevich » Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:15 pm
Kemalist wrote:I completely agree with you. That's how a Muslim should be like.
by Western Arab Empire » Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:15 pm
Dasha Kovachevich wrote:Glorious Wonderland wrote:I consume neither, but I don't think consumption of either pork or alcohol is equal to apostasy declaration unlike what Hanbalis actually thought. People disobeyed lesser obvious verses of Qur'an everyday, heh.
Understanding the age when said Prophet lived, considering its relevance with the faith, understanding him not as divine incarnation with GaryStu personality but a human, noting the radically ranged age of estimation of Aisha's marriage and consummation with the Prophet and doubting hadiths as credible source, even include those of Imam Bukhari's.
Personally, I'm leaning to Qur'anism. I consider hadiths as supplementary source and cultural interpretation, which shall be filtered with 'take what are appropriate for today and dump what aren't'.
Im a quranist, but that term sometimes makes other muslims see me as "not one of them". In islam we are told to obey allah and follow the prophet, which is the guidence in the quran. My dad drinks, moderately, because the quran doesnt say its haram, just implies that there are bad things to it. Aishas age is irrelevant and not mentioned in the quran. There are many questionable hadiths that were written to insult islam. And all were written way after the death of the prophet. If there are muslims that dont see what I see then thats ok. Allah knows best and we should be able to talk about our differences like civilized people
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