Islam/Muslim Discussion Thread

[Leningrad Union]

Uh, the Israel-Palestine thread? The Jewish thread?

The Holocaust thread?

A new thread.

[Benuty]

The Holocaust thread?

A new thread.

Well you might as well call it what it is.

[Zauxerre]

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

And don't say this is hypocritical because I'm Christian.

Lies.

Not really.

[Southern Arkansas]

Lies.

Not really.

It actually is. Most are indeed related to a very specific point in history. The fact it brushes aside OT violence and says it for that, is a lie.

[Virana]

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

And don't say this is hypocritical because I'm Christian.

I think we already established that that website is an outright unreliable source for information about the Qur'an?

[Islamic Republic e Jariri]

First: Surah 2:191-193

“And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Haram (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. But if they cease, then Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)” (Surah2:191-193)

First let’s put the verse in its original context, the Holy Quran says: “And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors." [This Verse is the first one that was revealed in connection with Jihad, but it was supplemented by another (V.9:36)].

"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Haram (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. But if they cease, then Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.) The sacred month is for the sacred month, and for the prohibited things, there is the Law of Equality (Qisas). Then whoever transgresses the prohibition against you, you transgress likewise against him. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is with Al-Muttaqun (the pious)" - (V.2:2).

"And spend in the Cause of Allah (i.e. Jihad of all kinds, etc.) and do not throw yourselves into destruction (by not spending your wealth in the Cause of Allah), and do good. Truly, Allah loves Al-Muhsinun (the good-doers).” (2:190-195)

The verse clearly states to fight those who fight you, yet do not transgress limits. In so sense therefore does it promote killing of innocent but allows self-defense. It further goes on to state "And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice" and "if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression". Hence, once again when the whole context is examined the verses do not promote killing of innocent in anyway.

Second Surah9:5:
“Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” (Surah9:5)

First let’s put the verse in its original context, the Holy Quran says:

“Freedom from (all) obligations (is declared) from Allah and His Messenger to those of the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah), with whom you made a treaty. So travel freely (O Mushrikun - see V.2:105) for four months (as you will) throughout the land, but know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) Allah, and Allah will disgrace the disbelievers. And a declaration from Allah and His Messenger to mankind on the greatest day (the 10th of Dhul-Hijjah - the 12th month of Islamic calendar) that Allah is free from (all) obligations to the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) and so is His Messenger. So if you (Mushrikun) repent, it is better for you, but if you turn away, then know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) Allah. And give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful torment to those who disbelieve. Except those of the Mushrikun with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqun (the pious - see V.2:2). Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And if anyone of the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) seeks your protection then grant him protection, so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Qur'an), and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not.” (Surah9:1-6)

These verses were revealed during a historical period when the small Muslim community had entered into treaties with neighboring tribes (Jewish, Christian, and pagan). Several of the pagan tribes had violated the terms of their treaty, secretly aiding an enemy attack against the Muslim community. These verses instruct the Muslims to continue to honor treaties with anyone who has not since betrayed them, because fulfilling agreements is considered a righteous action. Then the verses continue, that those who have violated the terms of the treaty have declared war, so fight them... (as quoted above).

In the verse (9:6) Quran does not only say that you release those who seek protection but it goes even further and states to protect them! In the present international scenario, even a kind, peace-loving army General, during a battle, may let the enemy soldiers go free, if they want peace. But which army General will ever tell his soldiers, that if the enemy soldiers want peace during a battle, don’t just let them go free, but also escort them to a place of security?

Third Surah 4:89:
“They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliya' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.”
Once again the context is ignored; they don’t quote previous and next verses.

“They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliya' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them. Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with their breasts restraining from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. Had Allah willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allah has opened no way for you against them. You will find others that wish to have security from you and security from their people. Every time they are sent back to temptation, they yield thereto. If they withdraw not from you, nor offer you peace, nor restrain their hands, take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them. In their case, We have provided you with a clear warrant against them.” (Surah4:89-91)

Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi says with regards to this verse:
"Now tell me honestly, do these verses give a free permission to kill any one anywhere? These verses were revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), at the time when Muslims were attacked by the non-Muslims of Makkah on a regular basis. They were frightening the Muslim community of Madinah. One may say using the contemporary jargon that there were constant terrorist attacks on Madinah and in this situation Muslims were given permission to fight back the "terrorist". These verses are not permission for "terrorism" but they are a warning against the "terrorists." But even in these warnings you can see how much restraint and care is emphasized."

Therefore, it is clear that the verse only allows self-defense against those who "withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands". Naturally, it would be necessary for the enemies to withdraw and make peace in order to achieve peace. Verse is not referring to "those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people".

In "…withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands", it is obviously necessary to give guarantees of peace or form a treaty in addition to stop fighting. Otherwise, anyone can pretend to be "restraining their hands" when they are weak, and when they are strong again they come back and attack again. Thus to make it official Quran says to give you (guarantees) of peace, and not act as two-faced.

Fourth Surah 4:76:

“Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (Satan, etc.). So fight you against the friends of Shaitan (Satan); Ever feeble indeed is the plot of Shaitan (Satan).” (Surah4:76)
Again the context is ignored; Put it in its context and let’s read again. “Let those (believers) who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter fight in the Cause of Allah, and whoso fights in the Cause of Allah, and is killed or gets victory, We shall bestow on him a great reward. And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah, and for those weak, ill­treated and oppressed among men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You one who will protect, and raise for us from You one who will help." Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (Satan, etc.). So fight you against the friends of Shaitan (Satan); Ever feeble indeed is the plot of Shaitan (Satan).” (Surah4:74-76)

Verse 4:76 is specific to those who have been oppressed. In order to help those who cannot help themselves is indeed a great deed and to shun away tyranny and help those who are weak and oppressed. Islam-critics seek to present a view of violence and hate on behalf of Quran, however, when the verse is examined carefully in a correct context, their deceit is clearly exposed.

Fifth Surah 5:51:

“you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliya' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliya', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust).” (Surah5:51)
A similar meaning is in the verse:
“Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliya (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself (His Punishment), and to Allah is the final return.” (Surah3:28)

The Arabic word Auliya used in 5:51 is often mistranslated by some major translators as “friends”. More accurate translation of the word Auliya would be "Protector", "allies" or "intimate friends". In addition, according to Ectaco Online Dictionary (http://www-old.ectaco.com), root word of Awliya (walii) means PROTECTOR. Allah says that Allah alone is the Wali (in a sense of a protector). Other verses carry the same meaning like:

1. “The likeness of those who take Auliyâ' (protectors and helpers) other than Allâh is as the likeness of a spider, who builds (for itself) a house, but verily, the frailest (weakest) of houses is the spider's house; if they but knew.” (Surah 29:41)

2. “Or have they taken (for worship) Auliyâ' (guardians, supporters, helpers, protectors, etc.) besides Him? But Allâh, He Alone is the Walî (Protector, etc.). And it is He Who gives life to the dead, and He is Able to do all things.” (Surah 42:9) 3. “They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliya' (protectors) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.” (Surah4:64)

The word Auliya is also used as a substitution for God/Lord:
1. “Say (O Muhammad): "Who is the Lord of the heavens and the earth?" Say: "(It is) Allâh." Say: "Have you then taken (for worship) Auliyâ' (protectors, etc.) other than Him, such as have no power either for benefit or for harm to themselves?" Say: "Is the blind equal to the one who sees? Or darkness equal to light? Or do they assign to Allâh partners who created the like of His creation, so that the creation (which they made and His creation) seemed alike to them." Say: "Allâh is the Creator of all things; He is the One, the Irresistible." (Surah 13:16)

2. “Do then those who disbelieve think that they can take My slaves [i.e., the angels, Allâh's Messengers, 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), etc.] as Auliyâ' (lords, gods, protectors, etc.) besides Me? Verily, We have prepared Hell as an entertainment for the disbelievers (in the Oneness of Allâh Islamic Monotheism).” (Surah 18:102)

As it is clear once a verse is placed in its original context one can understand the rule, when and why it is applied. Lots of similar verses are found in the Holy Quran which always relate to a specific incidence or a certain case and to understand it correctly you have to read it in its original context (i.e. verses before and after it) and also know when and why was that verse revealed to be able to have a complete picture and only then you can judge…

[Quintium]

Question - why have islamic countries made slavery illegal?
Allah explicitly approves of slavery in the Quran and offers his own set of rules.

[Arabic Spain]

Question - why have islamic countries made slavery illegal?
Allah explicitly approves of slavery in the Quran and offers his own set of rules.

No we are against Slavery

[Quintium]

Question - why have islamic countries made slavery illegal?
Allah explicitly approves of slavery in the Quran and offers his own set of rules.

No we are against Slavery

Allah is not, as the Quran states.
So, why are you against slavery?

[Conscentia]

Question - why have islamic countries made slavery illegal?
Allah explicitly approves of slavery in the Quran and offers his own set of rules.

A free Muslim cannot be enslaved in Islamic law.

[Conscentia]

No we are against Slavery

Allah is not, as the Quran states.
So, why are you against slavery?

Source?

[Quintium]

Question - why have islamic countries made slavery illegal?
Allah explicitly approves of slavery in the Quran and offers his own set of rules.

A free Muslim cannot be enslaved in Islamic law.

We're not talking about those, are we? Islamic countries tend to have non-islamic minorities.
And what I'm saying is that the Quran, which is supposed to be the word of God, contains rules regarding slavery, meaning slavery as an institution, by itself, is legal.

[Southern Arkansas]

A free Muslim cannot be enslaved in Islamic law.

We're not talking about those, are we? Islamic countries tend to have non-islamic minorities.
And what I'm saying is that the Quran, which is supposed to be the word of God, contains rules regarding slavery, meaning slavery as an institution, by itself, is legal.

It isn't required.

[Utceforp]

A free Muslim cannot be enslaved in Islamic law.

We're not talking about those, are we? Islamic countries tend to have non-islamic minorities.
And what I'm saying is that the Quran, which is supposed to be the word of God, contains rules regarding slavery, meaning slavery as an institution, by itself, is legal.

So does the Bible, but Christian countries tend not to have slavery either.

[Jamjai]

Question - why have islamic countries made slavery illegal?
Allah explicitly approves of slavery in the Quran and offers his own set of rules.

looks like a bad question

[DogDoo 7]

Happy birthday muhammed! i'll drink a toast to you, old friend.

[Southern Arkansas]

Happy birthday muhammed! i'll drink a toast to you, old friend.

[Dasha Kovachevich]

Happy birthday muhammed! i'll drink a toast to you, old friend.

wha??

[Hazamaeia]

Just want my muslim fellows to remember

When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about Our signs, turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. If Satan ever makes thee forget, then after recollection, sit not thou in the company of those who do wrong.
Al An'am : 68

[Virana]

Just want my muslim fellows to remember

When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about Our signs, turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. If Satan ever makes thee forget, then after recollection, sit not thou in the company of those who do wrong.
Al An'am : 68

I don't think a loose joke comprises "vain discourse". Other Muslims should really stop being that sensitive about non-serious comments about our religious figures.

[The Scientific States]

Question - why have islamic countries made slavery illegal?
Allah explicitly approves of slavery in the Quran and offers his own set of rules.

Both the Old Testament and New Testament explicitly approve slavery.

By your logic, all adherents of Abrahamic Religions should approve of slavery.

[Menassa]

Question - why have islamic countries made slavery illegal?
Allah explicitly approves of slavery in the Quran and offers his own set of rules.

Both the Old Testament and New Testament explicitly approve slavery.

By your logic, all adherents of Abrahamic Religions should approve of slavery.

I'd hardly call it slavery.

[Leningrad Union]

Question - why have islamic countries made slavery illegal?
Allah explicitly approves of slavery in the Quran and offers his own set of rules.

Both the Old Testament and New Testament explicitly approve slavery.

By your logic, all adherents of Abrahamic Religions should approve of slavery.

Damn right I support it

[The Scientific States]

Both the Old Testament and New Testament explicitly approve slavery.

By your logic, all adherents of Abrahamic Religions should approve of slavery.

Damn right I support it

You're being sarcastic. I really hope you are.

[Southern Arkansas]

Just want my muslim fellows to remember

When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about Our signs, turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. If Satan ever makes thee forget, then after recollection, sit not thou in the company of those who do wrong.
Al An'am : 68

Say : O ye that reject Faith!
I worship not that which ye worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
To you be your Way, and to me mine.
Al Kafirun 109