Ethnic Nationalism: Yes, No, Why Not?

[Wikkiwallana]

Interesting, and I'm not sure I disagree. I was using a more common definition of race, since that's what so many people here have stood up for. I'll certainly be thinking this one over for a bit, as it sounds much like my own thinking on the matter.

It is something to consider as not even Africans accept blacks as African. Egyptians are not African either, even though Egypt is in Africa. The result is that there is, in fact, a social construct of race at play that goes far beyond biological or geographical factors. It falls along ethnicity and while ethnic differentiation itself can lead to hostile situations I would point out that it's perpetuation through nationalism enhances and maintains cultural identity as a result. The various cultures must, in the name of multiculturalism itself, be allowed to exist - the only way is through nationalism in various degrees. Otherwise, appeals to multicultural awareness result in an ironing out of differences and the elevation of a single culture.... which is the exact opposite idea behind multicultural and anti-ethnic nationalist positions.

Funny, I've found the opposite in regards to multiculturalism without nationalism. It creates new, fusion cultures that then go on to self-perputate naturally. I'm not at all concerned about preservation of existing cultures, so long as there is continuity into a new one. If Group X gradually turns into Group X.5 and then they gradually turn into Group Y, what is lost, so long as anyone who wants to can trace back to X and embrace the elements from it they like?

[Olthar]

Nationalism is stupid, and ethnic nationalism is worse.

[Distruzio]

It is something to consider as not even Africans accept blacks as African. Egyptians are not African either, even though Egypt is in Africa. The result is that there is, in fact, a social construct of race at play that goes far beyond biological or geographical factors. It falls along ethnicity and while ethnic differentiation itself can lead to hostile situations I would point out that it's perpetuation through nationalism enhances and maintains cultural identity as a result. The various cultures must, in the name of multiculturalism itself, be allowed to exist - the only way is through nationalism in various degrees. Otherwise, appeals to multicultural awareness result in an ironing out of differences and the elevation of a single culture.... which is the exact opposite idea behind multicultural and anti-ethnic nationalist positions.

Funny, I've found the opposite in regards to multiculturalism without nationalism. It creates new, fusion cultures that then go on to self-perputate naturally. I'm not at all concerned about preservation of existing cultures, so long as there is continuity into a new one. If Group X gradually turns into Group X.5 and then they gradually turn into Group Y, what is lost, so long as anyone who wants to can trace back to X and embrace the elements from it they like?

I rather think that what is lost is evident and obvious. Group Y is NOT Group X.

Christianity is NOT Judaism even though one grew from the other. Bahi'ism is NOT Islam even though one grew from the other. A white American of German descent is NOT a German-American even though one grew from the other.

Traceable lineage is not, necessarily, the same thing as the actual culture....

Of course, there are counter examples of lineage being preserved over time such as the apostolic traditions in Christianity. But these preservative initiatives are maintained by a centralized authority - the Church. How? By relying on a - for the lack of a better term - Religiously nationalistic approach to tradition (I speak this way only to maintain the parallels Im trying to paint between religious and ethnic identity).

Multiculturalism results in the destruction of any centralized initiative to maintain a cultural identity affiliated with ethnicity or culture (of which religion, race, and language are a part). The has to be ethnic nationalism in order to maintain the identity. Otherwise the lineage becomes more and more diffuse and disconnected.

Group Y is not Group A in the same way it is not Group X.

[Wikkiwallana]

Funny, I've found the opposite in regards to multiculturalism without nationalism. It creates new, fusion cultures that then go on to self-perputate naturally. I'm not at all concerned about preservation of existing cultures, so long as there is continuity into a new one. If Group X gradually turns into Group X.5 and then they gradually turn into Group Y, what is lost, so long as anyone who wants to can trace back to X and embrace the elements from it they like?

I rather think that what is lost is evident and obvious. Group Y is NOT Group X.

Christianity is NOT Judaism even though one grew from the other. Bahi'ism is NOT Islam even though one grew from the other. A white American of German descent is NOT a German-American even though one grew from the other.

Traceable lineage is not, necessarily, the same thing as the actual culture....

Of course, there are counter examples of lineage being preserved over time such as the apostolic traditions in Christianity. But these preservative initiatives are maintained by a centralized authority - the Church. How? By relying on a - for the lack of a better term - Religiously nationalistic approach to tradition (I speak this way only to maintain the parallels Im trying to paint between religious and ethnic identity).

Multiculturalism results in the destruction of any centralized initiative to maintain a cultural identity affiliated with ethnicity or culture (of which religion, race, and language are a part). The has to be ethnic nationalism in order to maintain the identity. Otherwise the lineage becomes more and more diffuse and disconnected.

Group Y is not Group A in the same way it is not Group X.

I never said they were the same, I said the change does not result in loss. Change in some form is inevitable no matter what you do. Rather than fighting it, steer it, and keep a record of everything you've been so that what's good is not forgotten. Again, I'm not talking about lineage, I'm talking about culture.

[Conscentia]

1. Does your nation-state float in the sky?
3. Nations can share a state.

The concept of nation as an ethnic unit should be forgotten - it causes nothing but pointless division.

I mean like Switzerland.

1. What? Said nation-state I'm talking about (a white American one) does not even exist. It's apparent geographic location does not exist.
2. Africa, the Middle East, and the Balkans have proved otherwise. The only times when two nations have been able to exist peacefully together is when their cultures have been largely harmonious and compatible. The causes for this compatibility are usually religious, ethnic, or a common history. Yes, examples would be Switzerland. Canada as well.

However, we aren't talking about that. We were talking about a state shared by two nations who were not compatible at all, like the European settler and the Native American or Africans, or the Austro-Hungarians and the Bosnian Serbs, or the Bosnians and the Serbs, or the Israelis and the Palestinians. The list goes on and on.

1. If it were to exist, it'd need a geographic location.
2. Ethnic nationalism is a reason why some of your examples of they are "incompatible". Switzerland is successful because ethnic nonsense has been set aside. And if anything, the Germans and the French are less compatible than Bosnians and Serbs - at least Bosniaks and Serbs are both Slavic peoples.
The other reason why your examples are "incompatible" is Imperialism. The peoples in Empires do not govern equally, unlike in Switzerland where peoples share the nation on an equal footing.

[Neo Rome Republic]

No a country should not give any special favor, to any ethnic group. People should be judged by their actions, not by their ethnic background. Pride in someone's ethnicity doesn't make sense as being born isn't really an accomplishment. Ethnic nationalism has led to wars, nothing good can come of it. There is only one race: The Human Race.

[Magna Libero]

Wow, this thread became quite crazy after a day.
Indeed, why not end nations altogether? Mixing all sorts of different cultures could never go wrong, just ask Sweden!

Last I heard, Sweden was doing fine. Not that many people here have called for the abolition of nations.

Actually, immigration IS a problem in Sweden. If we speak more correctly the problem is not immigration itself, but the concentration and "ghettoizing" of immigrants. The immigrants want to go to places like Malmö and a very few other towns, where their family, friends and relatives are living.

I read about a town in Sweden, where the majority of people are immigrants. It's a little difficult for that small town to give rehabilitation for all the immigrants. They even speculated that the immigration wouldn't be much of a problem if all immigrants scattered themselves evenly across Sweden. However, why would the immigrants want to do that?

This is going a little off topic, maybe , but I had to correct you.

[Distruzio]

I rather think that what is lost is evident and obvious. Group Y is NOT Group X.

Christianity is NOT Judaism even though one grew from the other. Bahi'ism is NOT Islam even though one grew from the other. A white American of German descent is NOT a German-American even though one grew from the other.

Traceable lineage is not, necessarily, the same thing as the actual culture....

Of course, there are counter examples of lineage being preserved over time such as the apostolic traditions in Christianity. But these preservative initiatives are maintained by a centralized authority - the Church. How? By relying on a - for the lack of a better term - Religiously nationalistic approach to tradition (I speak this way only to maintain the parallels Im trying to paint between religious and ethnic identity).

Multiculturalism results in the destruction of any centralized initiative to maintain a cultural identity affiliated with ethnicity or culture (of which religion, race, and language are a part). The has to be ethnic nationalism in order to maintain the identity. Otherwise the lineage becomes more and more diffuse and disconnected.

Group Y is not Group A in the same way it is not Group X.

I never said they were the same, I said the change does not result in loss. Change in some form is inevitable no matter what you do. Rather than fighting it, steer it, and keep a record of everything you've been so that what's good is not forgotten. Again, I'm not talking about lineage, I'm talking about culture.

I hear you. I really do. I just can't see how cultural identity can be maintained without the nationalistic aspect of it.

[Republica Newland]

Nationalism is stupid, and ethnic nationalism is worse.

how profound!

[The Holy Therns]

Wow, this thread became quite crazy after a day.
Indeed, why not end nations altogether? Mixing all sorts of different cultures could never go wrong, just ask Sweden!

We're doing wonderful, honey, thank you for asking.

[Conserative Morality]

Fuck no. Ethnic nationalists are a bunch of divisive, pathetic racists who hide behind a flag meant to represent progress and unity.

[Wikkiwallana]

Last I heard, Sweden was doing fine. Not that many people here have called for the abolition of nations.

Actually, immigration IS a problem in Sweden. If we speak more correctly the problem is not immigration itself, but the concentration and "ghettoizing" of immigrants. The immigrants want to go to places like Malmö and a very few other towns, where their family, friends and relatives are living.

I read about a town in Sweden, where the majority of people are immigrants. It's a little difficult for that small town to give rehabilitation for all the immigrants. They even speculated that the immigration wouldn't be much of a problem if all immigrants scattered themselves evenly across Sweden. However, why would the immigrants want to do that?

This is going a little off topic, maybe , but I had to correct you.

I said Sweden was doing fine, not that it was perfect in every respect. Also, from your description, the problems with immigration in Sweden seem to be almost the exact opposite of what Urhimmelen was claiming.

[Aetanovum]

Isnt this Racism

[Distruzio]

Isnt this Racism

Discriminatory? Yes. Racist? No. Race is more than skin tone.

[The Teccorri Republic]

No.
I don't even understand nationalism all that much. Or even its equivalent in sports, for that matter.
Doesn't make sense to me. It's just blind prejudice.

/thread

Seriously, though. Be proud of your achievements, not the color of your skin or genitalia. The only thing I can rationalize being proud of, that I didn't do myself, is being human.

Because humans are really fucking cool.