What Happens When we die?

[The Land of Truth]

Please, you are putting words in my mouth, something that always ruins a debate. Seeing as though you are very thoroughly indoctrinated into the "Faith", I will not be getting my message to you. I hope someday you find a thing called logic. Watch some debates between Atheists and Christians online, and you might realize the entire thing is a sham. I recommend the Atheist Experience.

Really? To which Faith is it I belong and who leads me? I'd love to see you prove the assertions you know about a person you just casually met on the internet. You know very little about me to make these statements. I understand logic very well. It's the second sword I wield.

Belief in something that has no evidence is, by definition, illogical.

[Ponderosa]

I don't know, and neither does anyone here.

[Dragonisia]

1) How is that ambiguous? The Bible's fiction. Period.
2) And?
5) It's not an opinion.
6) You said "the vast majority of the global population." Proof please.

1.) That's your opinion, you're entitled to it. You can no more prove it fiction than I can prove it fact. That's part of the paradox I cited earlier that actually strengthens my faith.
2.) It's an original text. You wanted an original source, there's a picture of the original book of Isaiah.
5.) Now that you're stating something is a fact, not an opinion, it is your turn to provide sources to prove your standpoint. Prove to me that a being that is allegedly more powerful than you and allegedly able to deceive and evade your perceptions does not exist.. bearing in mind the limitations you are said to have in regards to its existence.
6.) Mass media, the internet, my personal experience, are more than sufficient for me to have taken this perspective.

[Shaggai]

I was only talking about the bits that referred to some guy named Jesus existing. I had looked him up in a previous argument, so I knew about the bits that had been inserted. But I was pretty sure at least the bits about a preacher named Jesus existing were valid.

There's nothing referring to an actual "Jesus". There's a line that says, "James, the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ", which many interpret to mean that Jesus' brother existed, so he probably did, too.

I was referring to this part.

[Farnhamia]

1.) Ambiguity doesn't allow me to address specific accusations.
2.) http://www.truthnet.org/Bible-Origins/8 ... croll2.jpg
3.) I didn't say it proved it was true. I stated they believed it was true. Meaning they weren't attempting intentionally to defraud or mislead which gives more credibility to their letters. Intent of authors is sometimes more important than what they write.
4.) You are correct.
5.) You are entitled to that opinion, but I run into him daily.
6.) You.

1) How is that ambiguous? The Bible's fiction. Period.
2) And?
5) It's not an opinion.
6) You said "the vast majority of the global population." Proof please.

No, the Bible is not "fiction. Period." The Old Testament is a collection of myths, legends and chronicles of the ancient Israelites. Some of the episodes where Israel is battling neighboring peoples, like the Assyrians and Egyptians and Babylonians, can be corroborated. The New Testament, not so much, though the setting for Jesus' life and mission are consistent with the period. We do have Pontius Pilate's name on a inscription found in Palestine, something we hadn't had for quite a long time. No, no, it's not all fiction.

[Blasveck]

1) How is that ambiguous? The Bible's fiction. Period.
2) And?
5) It's not an opinion.
6) You said "the vast majority of the global population." Proof please.

1.) That's your opinion, you're entitled to it. You can no more prove it fiction than I can prove it fact. That's part of the paradox I cited earlier that actually strengthens my faith.
2.) It's an original text. You wanted an original source, there's a picture of the original book of Isaiah.
5.) Now that you're stating something is a fact, not an opinion, it is your turn to provide sources to prove your standpoint.
6.) Mass media, the internet, my personal experience, are more than sufficient for me to have taken this perspective.

Do you even know who wrote the Bible?

Someone, link Knox's OP here please.

[The Land of Truth]

1) How is that ambiguous? The Bible's fiction. Period.
2) And?
5) It's not an opinion.
6) You said "the vast majority of the global population." Proof please.

1.) That's your opinion, you're entitled to it. You can no more prove it fiction than I can prove it fact. That's part of the paradox I cited earlier that actually strengthens my faith.
2.) It's an original text. You wanted an original source, there's a picture of the original book of Isaiah.
5.) Now that you're stating something is a fact, not an opinion, it is your turn to provide sources to prove your standpoint.
6.) Mass media, the internet, my personal experience, are more than sufficient for me to have taken this perspective.

1. I don't have to prove it's fiction, until you show evidence that it's true it's fictional, by default.
2. That proves what exactly?
5. I didn't say it was a fact. It's just not my "opinion". I'm about 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% sure that the Devil isn't real. That's not an opinion, but it's not a fact, either.
6. No, they aren't.

[Dragonisia]

Do you even know who wrote the Bible?

Someone, link Knox's OP here please

I read the OP. It was a discussion about what happens when we die. I responded accordingly in the original post. It is others who chose to demean and debase my response that has taken us off topic. But if you wish to return to topic, lets do so now.

1. I don't have to prove it's fiction, until you show evidence that it's true it's fictional, by default.
2. That proves what exactly?
5. I didn't say it was a fact. It's just not my "opinion". I'm about 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% sure that the Devil isn't real. That's not an opinion, but it's not a fact, either.

1. I told you, i can't
2. That there are original documents. You requested I provide sources on them, I did, at least that's how I interpreted your request in your original 2. bullet.
5. Ah, then you're good. I meet the devil daily. He is very real. He manifests as misplaced anger, aggression, rage, deceit, treachery.. lot of bad things. You run into him to, you just don't recognize it for what it is. To you it all seems independent of each other and in no way related... as intended.

[The Land of Truth]

There's nothing referring to an actual "Jesus". There's a line that says, "James, the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ", which many interpret to mean that Jesus' brother existed, so he probably did, too.

I was referring to this part.

I'd like to wait for the scholarly community to take a definitive position on that, before I do.

[BrightonBurg]

You rot,and become food for worms,and other various insects..

[Shaggai]

1.) That's your opinion, you're entitled to it. You can no more prove it fiction than I can prove it fact. That's part of the paradox I cited earlier that actually strengthens my faith.
2.) It's an original text. You wanted an original source, there's a picture of the original book of Isaiah.
5.) Now that you're stating something is a fact, not an opinion, it is your turn to provide sources to prove your standpoint.
6.) Mass media, the internet, my personal experience, are more than sufficient for me to have taken this perspective.

Do you even know who wrote the Bible?

Someone, link Knox's OP here please.

Here: viewtopic.php?p=15602411#p15602411

I was referring to this part.

I'd like to wait for the scholarly community to take a definitive position on that, before I do.

Oh, OK then. Here's another useful link that I will be looking at.

[The Land of Truth]

1) How is that ambiguous? The Bible's fiction. Period.
2) And?
5) It's not an opinion.
6) You said "the vast majority of the global population." Proof please.

No, the Bible is not "fiction. Period." The Old Testament is a collection of myths, legends and chronicles of the ancient Israelites. Some of the episodes where Israel is battling neighboring peoples, like the Assyrians and Egyptians and Babylonians, can be corroborated. The New Testament, not so much, though the setting for Jesus' life and mission are consistent with the period. We do have Pontius Pilate's name on a inscription found in Palestine, something we hadn't had for quite a long time. No, no, it's not all fiction.

Consistent =/= true. The "Bourne" books are consistent with modern times and technology (well, most are), but that doesn't make them true.

The fact that Pilate exists also doesn't lend the Bible any more credibility than including Barack Obama in a sci-fi book makes that book a credible source of information.

[Dragonisia]

The concept of sci-fi, in the nature you're considering... didn't really exist in that timeframe. Therefore it's illogical to consider that texts would be written in such a fashion.

[The Land of Truth]

Do you even know who wrote the Bible?

Someone, link Knox's OP here please

I read the OP. It was a discussion about what happens when we die. I responded accordingly in the original post. It is others who chose to demean and debase my response that has taken us off topic. But if you wish to return to topic, lets do so now.

We are on topic. We never went off of it.

1. I don't have to prove it's fiction, until you show evidence that it's true it's fictional, by default.
2. That proves what exactly?
5. I didn't say it was a fact. It's just not my "opinion". I'm about 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% sure that the Devil isn't real. That's not an opinion, but it's not a fact, either.

1. I told you, i can't
2. That there are original documents. You requested I provide sources on them, I did, at least that's how I interpreted your request in your original 2. bullet.
5. Ah, then you're good. I meet the devil daily. He is very real. He manifests as misplaced anger, aggression, rage, deceit, treachery.. lot of bad things. You run into him to, you just don't recognize it for what it is. To you it all seems independent of each other and in no way related... as intended.

1. Then, it's fiction.
2. I meant document before the Gospels that say something about Jesus.
2. Da fuck? "bullet"?
5. How do you know it's the Devil?

[Shaggai]

No, the Bible is not "fiction. Period." The Old Testament is a collection of myths, legends and chronicles of the ancient Israelites. Some of the episodes where Israel is battling neighboring peoples, like the Assyrians and Egyptians and Babylonians, can be corroborated. The New Testament, not so much, though the setting for Jesus' life and mission are consistent with the period. We do have Pontius Pilate's name on a inscription found in Palestine, something we hadn't had for quite a long time. No, no, it's not all fiction.

Consistent =/= true. The "Bourne" books are consistent with modern times and technology (well, most are), but that doesn't make them true.

The fact that Pilate exists also doesn't lend the Bible any more credibility than including Barack Obama in a sci-fi book makes that book a credible source of information.

But it isn't entirely fiction, which is what I think Farn's point was.

[The Land of Truth]

The concept of sci-fi, in the nature you're considering... didn't really exist in that timeframe. Therefore it's illogical to consider that texts would be written in such a fashion.

Because Barack Obama lived at the same time as Jesus?

[Farnhamia]

I was referring to this part.

I'd like to wait for the scholarly community to take a definitive position on that, before I do.

Why? That passage in Wiki is studded with footnotes. Go search them out.

Was there, as Josephus may have written, a wise man called Jesus who developed a following in the principate of Tiberius? Yes, I do think so. Was he the son of the Hebrew god? Not on your tintype.

I met Josephus a few times in Rome. He reminds me (now) of Dickens' Uriah Heep but without the nastiness. He was always so very eager to please. Probably something to do with having betrayed his compatriots and his cause at Jotapata.

[Shaggai]

Do you even know who wrote the Bible?

Someone, link Knox's OP here please

I read the OP. It was a discussion about what happens when we die. I responded accordingly in the original post. It is others who chose to demean and debase my response that has taken us off topic. But if you wish to return to topic, lets do so now.

No, Knox wrote an OP about the authorship of the Bible. I linked it in my previous post.

[The Land of Truth]

Consistent =/= true. The "Bourne" books are consistent with modern times and technology (well, most are), but that doesn't make them true.

The fact that Pilate exists also doesn't lend the Bible any more credibility than including Barack Obama in a sci-fi book makes that book a credible source of information.

But it isn't entirely fiction, which is what I think Farn's point was.

If by "entirely fiction", you mean single bit was made up, then of course not. There's no such thing as that.

But the stories themselves are, as far as the evidence is concerned, completely fictional accounts.

[The Land of Truth]

Do you even know who wrote the Bible?

Someone, link Knox's OP here please.

Here: viewtopic.php?p=15602411#p15602411

I'd like to wait for the scholarly community to take a definitive position on that, before I do.

Oh, OK then. Here's another useful link that I will be looking at.

I've read that page several times.

[Dangelia]

It is known that when you die, your soul leaves your body. Then the soul enters a place where they can't communicate with God. At this place, demons will show the departed their sinful nature and try to convince them that they are not worthy to go into the Kingdom of Heaven. However, angels, the prayer of the saints, and of your friends and family who are still alive will try to guide you into heaven. For some people it takes them a while to choose between heaven or hell, we sometimes see them as ghosts. Infact we are supposed to choose heaven since hell is only for those who hate God. So no matter where we go, or soul will either experience great torture (hell) or great joy (heaven). Then will come the final resurrection were the souls of the living will join a renewed form of their bodies. Then will come the final judgement when the wicked will be sent to hell and the righteous will be sent to heaven.

[Seven Suns]

When we die our consciousness recedes back into the essence of the design of things.

[Blasveck]

It is known that when you die, your soul leaves your body. Then the soul enters a place where they can't communicate with God. At this place, demons will show the departed their sinful nature and try to convince them that they are not worthy to go into the Kingdom of Heaven. However, angels, the prayer of the saints, and of your friends and family who are still alive will try to guide you into heaven. For some people it takes them a while to choose between heaven or hell, we sometimes see them as ghosts. Infact we are supposed to choose heaven since hell is only for those who hate God. So no matter where we go, or soul will either experience great torture (hell) or great joy (heaven). Then will come the final resurrection were the souls of the living will join a renewed form of their bodies. Then will come the final judgement when the wicked will be sent to hell and the righteous will be sent to heaven.

How do you know that the "soul" exists?

[Shaggai]

Here: viewtopic.php?p=15602411#p15602411

Oh, OK then. Here's another useful link that I will be looking at.

I've read that page several times.

Ah, okay. So you do agree that Jesus existed as a human?

[The Land of Truth]

I'd like to wait for the scholarly community to take a definitive position on that, before I do.

Why? That passage in Wiki is studded with footnotes. Go search them out.

Was there, as Josephus may have written, a wise man called Jesus who developed a following in the principate of Tiberius? Yes, I do think so. Was he the son of the Hebrew god? Not on your tintype.

I met Josephus a few times in Rome. He reminds me (now) of Dickens' Uriah Heep but without the nastiness. He was always so very eager to please. Probably something to do with having betrayed his compatriots and his cause at Jotapata.

Because, until there's a consensus, it's pretty much they said-they said, which I'm not interested in.

I also don't doubt there was a man whom we may as well call "Jesus".

The fuck?