An Independent Native American State?

[Eternally Warring Spartanians]

It has nothing to do with white people Mushet... It has to do with the people in that area, white or not, NOT WANTING TO BE LAKOTAH. If this state was formed, the native americans doing so would be no better than the people who took the land in the first place. On top of that it would put an un-elected minority government in power over a large population of people who would instantly dislike them, disobey them, and likely overthrow them either legally of violently.

Waving the flag of libertarian freedoms and claiming "we'll be different" or "we promise not to be corrupt, trust us..." doesn't earn you the love of the people you conquer because that is EXACTLY what this is, it is simply conquest with a pen and lawyers instead of guns and swords.

Un-elected minority government? What makes you think there's going to be an unelected minority government, and what makes you think the population woulds instantly dislike them to such an extent? Conquerors? Hardly, it would go by a compact of free association.

It would be an un-elcted minority government due to the fact that the territory they would take control of is full of Americans citizens who didn't want to stop being American. The population would dislike them because Americans still want to be American without having to give up where they already live.

[Mushet]

Nope, never ,Lolnone ,When Hell Freezes, ur Drunk Natives.

No. Just no.

I'm sober, sorry to rain on your dumbass racist stereotype parade

[Eternally Warring Spartanians]

Do you think so? Why? As I said, they identify as Americans and don't want to secede to live in a state ruled by a minority that pratically doesn't even exist anymore.

Practically doesn't even exist anymore? Are you talking about Lakotah or Native Americans as a whole, because both are bullshit. And it's more like a reassertion of sovereignty. Just as well they may find themselves more in line with the ideals than they previously thought.

For the amount of territory they are claiming compared to who is actually living there now. yes the Lakotah barely exists anymore, Native American population has been on a decline for quite a long time now.

[Mushet]

Un-elected minority government? What makes you think there's going to be an unelected minority government, and what makes you think the population woulds instantly dislike them to such an extent? Conquerors? Hardly, it would go by a compact of free association.

It would be an un-elcted minority government due to the fact that the territory they would take control of is full of Americans citizens who didn't want to stop being American. The population would dislike them because Americans still want to be American without having to give up where they already live.

Compact of Free Association? They can continue to be Americans. And again unelected minority government where are you getting that bullshit from?

[Eternally Warring Spartanians]

Wtf??? NO. Does everyone and their mother need their own country?

So you just want to forcibly keep the Lakotah nation under the thumb of it's conqueror that has been breaking the treaty agreement for 200 years while the nation lives in poverty because there's already enough nations in the world for you?

The Lakotah nation, along with many other Native American tribes, have been living in poverty partially due to their own faults. Most reservations are worse then slums due to the fact that the peoples of those reservations have no will to pull themselves up. Drinking is often very heavy, and ruthless gangs are prevalent. There are exceptions, there are a few tribes who are trying. I know a few have allowed companies to open manufacturer factories on their lands to supply jobs.

[Farnhamia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTduy7Qkvk8

We might consider that the Native Americans simply lost because Late Neolithic hunter-gatherer cultures do not do well against 15th century European arms and armor. That would be hijacking the thread, however. Again, if the Republic of Lakota movement can get Congress to give them what they want, good for them.

Because we were all hunter gatherer cultures right? Just as well native american nations are...nations, they're recognized as sovereign nations by treaty, to say that they're not nations because they're native american is just eurocentric and racist.

I never said they were not nations because they were Native American. I said, in jest, that they weren't nations because they didn't have flags (see under Izzard, Edward John) and that the Western concept of a nation would have been foreign and, probably, meaningless to the tribes when Europeans started arriving in the 15th century. But you're right, they were recognized as nations by the treaties they made with the US. That the US violated those treaties is a shame on the country. Here's the thing, though: the Native American nations are citizens of the United States, the richest and arguably the most powerful nation on the planet. Why not take advantage of that? There is nothing compelling them to remain on the reservations. Everyone could move off the rez tomorrow and it would make the news not because it was bad but because no one else could hire a moving van. Getting an independent country in the middle of the US is not going to happen, so why not Plan B? After all, the best revenge is living well.

[Mushet]

Practically doesn't even exist anymore? Are you talking about Lakotah or Native Americans as a whole, because both are bullshit. And it's more like a reassertion of sovereignty. Just as well they may find themselves more in line with the ideals than they previously thought.

For the amount of territory they are claiming compared to who is actually living there now. yes the Lakotah barely exists anymore, Native American population has been on a decline for quite a long time now.

There were 55,000 of them counted in 1990, and that was just on the reservation, about 153,000 Sioux according to the census. And Native America is about 52 million strong and growing.

[Eternally Warring Spartanians]

It would be an un-elcted minority government due to the fact that the territory they would take control of is full of Americans citizens who didn't want to stop being American. The population would dislike them because Americans still want to be American without having to give up where they already live.

Compact of Free Association? They can continue to be Americans. And again unelected minority government where are you getting that bullshit from?

If the Lakatoh create their own state you really think they'll put anyone else in charge other then themselves? That is the whole point of them wanting their own nation is it not? So they can rule themselves? The Lakatoh and other Native Americans all grouped together as one are still a minority in the United States of America. Even in that faction of land they want they'd still be outnumbered by non-natives who already live there.

Minority Native Set Up Government + Majority Non-Native Peoples Living In Said Governed Area Who Didn't Give Their Consent = Minority Unelected Government

[Patriarch]

This should definitely be a thing.

I would back a resolution by the UK supporting such a move.

[Norstal]

It would be an un-elcted minority government due to the fact that the territory they would take control of is full of Americans citizens who didn't want to stop being American. The population would dislike them because Americans still want to be American without having to give up where they already live.

Compact of Free Association? They can continue to be Americans. And again unelected minority government where are you getting that bullshit from?

It's really hard to be an American in a place where, you know, you're not in America anymore.

[Mushet]

Because we were all hunter gatherer cultures right? Just as well native american nations are...nations, they're recognized as sovereign nations by treaty, to say that they're not nations because they're native american is just eurocentric and racist.

I never said they were not nations because they were Native American. I said, in jest, that they weren't nations because they didn't have flags (see under Izzard, Edward John) and that the Western concept of a nation would have been foreign and, probably, meaningless to the tribes when Europeans started arriving in the 15th century. But you're right, they were recognized as nations by the treaties they made with the US. That the US violated those treaties is a shame on the country. Here's the thing, though: the Native American nations are citizens of the United States, the richest and arguably the most powerful nation on the planet. Why not take advantage of that? There is nothing compelling them to remain on the reservations. Everyone could move off the rez tomorrow and it would make the news not because it was bad but because no one else could hire a moving van. Getting an independent country in the middle of the US is not going to happen, so why not Plan B? After all, the best revenge is living well.

Most Indians already live off the reservations nowadays, my great grandmother moved to the LA area and we got 4 generations living in this crowded house, fact is Urban NDNs still have disproprtionally high poverty rates, this whole get off the rez get rich Horatio Alger bullshit is bullshit. And not all reservations are depraved communities, there are plenty that are doing quite well. The fact is these nations shoul be able to get self determination to dictate their own futures rather than having the only other option to get assimilated and lose sovereignty.

[Eternally Warring Spartanians]

This should definitely be a thing.

I would back a resolution by the UK supporting such a move.

What should be and what is or will be aren't the same thing in this world.

The United States will never give up territory, by the will of its citizens or foreign public opinion.
Why? Because the United States Government will never give up being a super-power willingly. You'd have to start a war.
I'm not being some Nationalist zealous dick, I'm being a Realist. Who here seriously see the US giving up any of its power willingly in the next 200 years without shots being fired first.

[Vicswampia]

Practically doesn't even exist anymore? Are you talking about Lakotah or Native Americans as a whole, because both are bullshit. And it's more like a reassertion of sovereignty. Just as well they may find themselves more in line with the ideals than they previously thought.

So explain me why would they find themselves in line with those ideals, since it wouldn't benefit them —in fact, it would harm them— in any way.

Honestly, saying that we should give the Indians an indepedent state because it was their land makes as much sense as saying we should give Turkey back to the Greeks.

[Newport]

I see no reason as to why not.

[Vicswampia]

Compact of Free Association? They can continue to be Americans. And again unelected minority government where are you getting that bullshit from?

So what's the point of having a Native State if the natives aren't going to be the ones who will rule it?

[Eternally Warring Spartanians]

I never said they were not nations because they were Native American. I said, in jest, that they weren't nations because they didn't have flags (see under Izzard, Edward John) and that the Western concept of a nation would have been foreign and, probably, meaningless to the tribes when Europeans started arriving in the 15th century. But you're right, they were recognized as nations by the treaties they made with the US. That the US violated those treaties is a shame on the country. Here's the thing, though: the Native American nations are citizens of the United States, the richest and arguably the most powerful nation on the planet. Why not take advantage of that? There is nothing compelling them to remain on the reservations. Everyone could move off the rez tomorrow and it would make the news not because it was bad but because no one else could hire a moving van. Getting an independent country in the middle of the US is not going to happen, so why not Plan B? After all, the best revenge is living well.

Most Indians already live off the reservations nowadays, my great grandmother moved to the LA area and we got 4 generations living in this crowded house, fact is Urban NDNs still have disproprtionally high poverty rates, this whole get off the rez get rich Horatio Alger bullshit is bullshit. And not all reservations are depraved communities, there are plenty that are doing quite well. The fact is these nations shoul be able to get self determination to dictate their own futures rather than having the only other option to get assimilated and lose sovereignty.

And Texas and South Carolina should be able to secede like they want. I mean we have clauses and a process for states to apply to leave the United States, and they are pointless. The government won't let it happen, just like they won't let Native Americans carve out their own country in the middle of what is now recognized as US territory.

If you really really want it to happen go pick up a gun and start a Native Revolution and try and find some way to defeat the US Military. Otherwise everything else you do is pointless.

[Vicswampia]

There were 55,000 of them counted in 1990, and that was just on the reservation, about 153,000 Sioux according to the census. And Native America is about 52 million strong and growing.

52 million? Where did you get that from? Actually, there are more people in the Atlanta Metropolitan than there are natives in the US and that includes Alaskan and Hawaiian natives.

[Mushet]

Compact of Free Association? They can continue to be Americans. And again unelected minority government where are you getting that bullshit from?

If the Lakatoh create their own state you really think they'll put anyone else in charge other then themselves? That is the whole point of them wanting their own nation is it not? So they can rule themselves? The Lakatoh and other Native Americans all grouped together as one are still a minority in the United States of America. Even in that faction of land they want they'd still be outnumbered by non-natives who already live there.

Minority Native Set Up Government + Majority Non-Native Peoples Living In Said Governed Area Who Didn't Give Their Consent = Minority Unelected Government

It would be a federation of communities so the non-natives would rule themselves, and if they don't want to participate they won't have to the compact of free association will allow that flexibility.

[Mushet]

There were 55,000 of them counted in 1990, and that was just on the reservation, about 153,000 Sioux according to the census. And Native America is about 52 million strong and growing.

52 million? Where did you get that from? Actually, there are more people in the Atlanta Metropolitan than there are natives in the US and that includes Alaskan and Hawaiian natives.

Native Americans aren't only in the US you know

[Vicswampia]

52 million? Where did you get that from? Actually, there are more people in the Atlanta Metropolitan than there are natives in the US and that includes Alaskan and Hawaiian natives.

Native Americans aren't only in the US you know [/quote]

You're talking about setting an independent country for natives in the middle of the US. I presume you're talking about natives that live in the US.

[Mushet]

Practically doesn't even exist anymore? Are you talking about Lakotah or Native Americans as a whole, because both are bullshit. And it's more like a reassertion of sovereignty. Just as well they may find themselves more in line with the ideals than they previously thought.

So explain me why would they find themselves in line with those ideals, since it wouldn't benefit them —in fact, it would harm them— in any way.

Honestly, saying that we should give the Indians an indepedent state because it was their land makes as much sense as saying we should give Turkey back to the Greeks.

How would it not benefit them? And the Lakotah have a treaty.

[Mushet]

So you just want to forcibly keep the Lakotah nation under the thumb of it's conqueror that has been breaking the treaty agreement for 200 years while the nation lives in poverty because there's already enough nations in the world for you?

The Lakotah nation, along with many other Native American tribes, have been living in poverty partially due to their own faults. Most reservations are worse then slums due to the fact that the peoples of those reservations have no will to pull themselves up. Drinking is often very heavy, and ruthless gangs are prevalent. There are exceptions, there are a few tribes who are trying. I know a few have allowed companies to open manufacturer factories on their lands to supply jobs.

And these are issues that have to be healed, I'm well aware, and I never said it would be easy.

[Mushet]

Most Indians already live off the reservations nowadays, my great grandmother moved to the LA area and we got 4 generations living in this crowded house, fact is Urban NDNs still have disproprtionally high poverty rates, this whole get off the rez get rich Horatio Alger bullshit is bullshit. And not all reservations are depraved communities, there are plenty that are doing quite well. The fact is these nations shoul be able to get self determination to dictate their own futures rather than having the only other option to get assimilated and lose sovereignty.

And Texas and South Carolina should be able to secede like they want. I mean we have clauses and a process for states to apply to leave the United States, and they are pointless. The government won't let it happen, just like they won't let Native Americans carve out their own country in the middle of what is now recognized as US territory.

If you really really want it to happen go pick up a gun and start a Native Revolution and try and find some way to defeat the US Military. Otherwise everything else you do is pointless.

These are sovereign nations with treaties that the US in many cases have already been breaking for the past 200 years, there is a legal precedent.

[Vicswampia]

How would it not benefit them? And the Lakotah have a treaty.

It wouldn't benefit them because they would get out of one of the most powerful economies of the world, the most influential country on Earth, and they would be ruled by a minority government. Is it that hard to understand?

And treaty? Oh, cry me a river.

[The Norgan Alliance]

Are the Indians asking for a state just for them? Or their own sovereign nation?