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Why would libertarianism not work?

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Distruzio
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Postby Distruzio » Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:57 am

Ichverratnix wrote:Could you outline your definition of "free society"?
Why do you emphasise on "free" instead of, say, "egalitarian"?


Because liberty and equality are mutually exclusive. Liberty can, however, elevate equitable social situations whereas equality ALWAYS depresses libertarian social situations.
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Postby Conservative Idealism » Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:02 am

Blasveck wrote:So, Libertarianism:
An ideology that, typically, can be described as pro-free market, pro-civil rights, and anti-tax. A classical liberal, essentially.

Personally, I do believe that Libertarianism is the best ideology to follow to have a free society. I believe that it is the best way to organize a society with voluntary contributions and minimal governmental intrusion.

So, NSG, what's your thoughts on Libertarianism? Do you subscribe to the ideology? Do you not? If you do/don't, why?

(And if you have nothing to add to the discussion but "Lolbertarianism is STOOPID", please don't bother posting.)

Yeah, but the Libertarian Party endorses a few things I don't subscribe to. I would rather see a "peace through strength" sentiment in their plans for foreign policy, they're incredibly idealistic regarding how taxes work (though, come to think of it, so am I), and they appear to be blinded by civil rights issues that haven't even hit their peaks yet.

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Postby Quackquackhonk » Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:33 am

Umbradge wrote:I have been doing some research on libertarianism (minimal government for those who don't know) became a libertarian myself, and I've seen some criticisms that make sense such as "total freedom does not guarantee happiness" and I understand that. I read through the whole list and none of the other points and my faith in libertarianism was not swayed. Yet many still say that libertarianism would not work. I looked on the lists and found that the number of socialists and iron fisted dictatorships outweighed the number of libertarians an anarcho Capitalists, so all I'm asking for is your reasoning for choosing your own political philosophy, or, more to the point, why more people aren't shouldn't have both economic and social freedom . Please explain your reasoning.


i am starting to see a trend where people ask unmeaningful questions that have no definitive answer.

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Postby Gauthier » Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:40 am

Personal opinion is libertarianism is a gateway to feudalism.
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Postby Belligerent Alcoholics » Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:51 am

Gauthier wrote:Personal opinion is libertarianism is a gateway to feudalism.

Feudalism would be preferable to what generally gets called libertarianism. Under feudalism, those at the top actually have reciprocal responsibilities to those beneath them they're obliged by society to execute (failure to carry them out could cause loss of that high position) and everyone has at least some rights. Under libertarianism, responsibilities are one way and rights must be purchased.
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Postby Distruzio » Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:05 am

Gauthier wrote:Personal opinion is libertarianism is a gateway to feudalism.


I see this charge often but never any supporting reasoning.

It's as ridiculous as saying that my personal opinion of social democracy is that it's a gateway to pedophilia.
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Postby Amacia » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:38 am

Like any other political philosophy, libertarianism is a broad and ranging ground of diverse opinions (sometimes a libertarian's worst enemy is another libertarian), not a fully fleshed out platform set in stone. What gets called libertarianism is usually the Ron Paul type and while that is one version, it's certainty not the only. My personal philosophy is that the journey is better than the destination, and that libertarianism at the very least should be viewed as a mode of direction (the direction of smaller government) rather than a utopian blueprint. Focusing on one type is myopic and has virtually killed many a discussion, here and elsewhere.
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Postby Wind in the Willows » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:46 am

Pultridus wrote:Because with no government we would have no law.anyone could rob you and you couldn't do anything about it.People want justice so it wouldn't work.I am a libertarionist myself and i understand this.you need government but not too much and not too little.


I'm no expert on Libertarianism, but I think you're talking about Anarchism here. I am pretty sure that Libertarians advocate minimal amount of government, but some form of it still exists.

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Postby Agritum » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:56 am

Wind in the Willows wrote:
Pultridus wrote:Because with no government we would have no law.anyone could rob you and you couldn't do anything about it.People want justice so it wouldn't work.I am a libertarionist myself and i understand this.you need government but not too much and not too little.


I'm no expert on Libertarianism, but I think you're talking about Anarchism here. I am pretty sure that Libertarians advocate minimal amount of government, but some form of it still exists.

Some Libertarians are Ancaps, though.
Last edited by Agritum on Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Patriarchal States » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:58 am

Why would I spend my time telling you why Libertarianism would not work? Why can't you do it yourself? You really expect me to GIVE you my opinions without being paid for them, you Bolshevik?
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Postby Wind in the Willows » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:58 am

Agritum wrote:
Wind in the Willows wrote:
I'm no expert on Libertarianism, but I think you're talking about Anarchism here. I am pretty sure that Libertarians advocate minimal amount of government, but some form of it still exists.

Some Libertarians are Ancaps, though.


Oh right.

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Postby Sungai Pusat » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:02 am

Distruzio wrote:
Gauthier wrote:Personal opinion is libertarianism is a gateway to feudalism.


I see this charge often but never any supporting reasoning.

My guess is that it is due to the idea of a society where one group of people owns all the parts of the economy and everyone is forced to pay rent in some way in order to continue living/working/doing whatever there. Example being the sale of goods: If one very influential corporation could convince the whole world to make products that are shiny and break easily, then advertise them, they would essentially make people dependent upon buying that one product to do stuff.

At least, this is my rough assumption about why people compare libertarianism to feudalism.
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Postby Distruzio » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:06 am

Sungai Pusat wrote:
Distruzio wrote:
I see this charge often but never any supporting reasoning.

My guess is that it is due to the idea of a society where one group of people owns all the parts of the economy and everyone is forced to pay rent in some way in order to continue living/working/doing whatever there. Example being the sale of goods: If one very influential corporation could convince the whole world to make products that are shiny and break easily, then advertise them, they would essentially make people dependent upon buying that one product to do stuff.

At least, this is my rough assumption about why people compare libertarianism to feudalism.


Can no one see the less obtuse potential for abuse and the more obvious parallels between statism and feudalism?
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Postby Llamalandia » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:07 am

Belligerent Alcoholics wrote:
Gauthier wrote:Personal opinion is libertarianism is a gateway to feudalism.

Feudalism would be preferable to what generally gets called libertarianism. Under feudalism, those at the top actually have reciprocal responsibilities to those beneath them they're obliged by society to execute (failure to carry them out could cause loss of that high position) and everyone has at least some rights. Under libertarianism, responsibilities are one way and rights must be purchased.


Yeah, that's feudalism in theory. But guess what in practice it often doesn't work out that way. Feudal lords often neglected their duties to the serfs under them bc guess what they could get away with it. Also not sure what you mean when you say rights must be "purchased" under libertarianism. Rights are inherent in individuals is a belief held by most libertarians. I also don't know what you mean about 'responsibilities being one way" either care to elaborate. :)

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Postby Agritum » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:08 am

Distruzio wrote:
Sungai Pusat wrote:My guess is that it is due to the idea of a society where one group of people owns all the parts of the economy and everyone is forced to pay rent in some way in order to continue living/working/doing whatever there. Example being the sale of goods: If one very influential corporation could convince the whole world to make products that are shiny and break easily, then advertise them, they would essentially make people dependent upon buying that one product to do stuff.

At least, this is my rough assumption about why people compare libertarianism to feudalism.


Can no one see the less obtuse potential for abuse and the more obvious parallels between statism and feudalism?

Feudalism is a decentralized form of government, though. Unless you mean decentralized statism.
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Postby European Socialist Republic » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:10 am

The Patriarchal States wrote:Why would I spend my time telling you why Libertarianism would not work? Why can't you do it yourself? You really expect me to GIVE you my opinions without being paid for them, you Bolshevik?


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Postby Llamalandia » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:13 am

European Socialist Republic wrote:
The Patriarchal States wrote:Why would I spend my time telling you why Libertarianism would not work? Why can't you do it yourself? You really expect me to GIVE you my opinions without being paid for them, you Bolshevik?


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^ok this pretty funny :rofl:

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Postby Sungai Pusat » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:13 am

Agritum wrote:
Distruzio wrote:
Can no one see the less obtuse potential for abuse and the more obvious parallels between statism and feudalism?

Feudalism is a decentralized form of government, though. Unless you mean decentralized statism.

He's talking about the point on taxation, really. If you're born in an area ruled by a feudal lord, you work there all your life and that labour is given to the lord in exchange for stuff.
The same thing occurs under statism, except it is called taxation and it is now taxing a percentage of your labour. The concept is the same, though, except much more humane than feudalism was.
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Postby Albul » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:17 am

Distruzio wrote:
Ichverratnix wrote:Could you outline your definition of "free society"?
Why do you emphasise on "free" instead of, say, "egalitarian"?


Because liberty and equality are mutually exclusive. Liberty can, however, elevate equitable social situations whereas equality ALWAYS depresses libertarian social situations.

This coming from an Anarcho-Monarchist.
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Postby Llamalandia » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:17 am

Sungai Pusat wrote:
Agritum wrote:Feudalism is a decentralized form of government, though. Unless you mean decentralized statism.

He's talking about the point on taxation, really. If you're born in an area ruled by a feudal lord, you work there all your life and that labour is given to the lord in exchange for stuff.
The same thing occurs under statism, except it is called taxation and it is now taxing a percentage of your labour. The concept is the same, though, except much more humane than feudalism was.


Good point, I mean under Feudalism you did whatever job the Lord over you told you to do, you didn't have a choice. There was virtually no way to better yourself or your position in society and there was no democratic institutions for the implementation of public policy. If the Lord of the manner need conscripts to go fight somewhere well you got drafted. If the lord told you to work the fields you did.

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Postby Mavorpen » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:18 am

Distruzio wrote:
Mavorpen wrote:Left libertarianism is nice, right libertarianism is a joke for spoiled bratty teenagers.


That's funny because I, often, say the same thing about left libertarians. That they are the spoiled children in need of a paddling.

I'm well aware you believe in bullshit.
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Postby Distruzio » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:30 am

Sungai Pusat wrote:
Agritum wrote:Feudalism is a decentralized form of government, though. Unless you mean decentralized statism.

He's talking about the point on taxation, really. If you're born in an area ruled by a feudal lord, you work there all your life and that labour is given to the lord in exchange for stuff.
The same thing occurs under statism, except it is called taxation and it is now taxing a percentage of your labour. The concept is the same, though, except much more humane than feudalism was.


That's true. It is much more humane... but differs only in degree rather than substance.
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Postby Distruzio » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:32 am

Llamalandia wrote:
Sungai Pusat wrote:He's talking about the point on taxation, really. If you're born in an area ruled by a feudal lord, you work there all your life and that labour is given to the lord in exchange for stuff.
The same thing occurs under statism, except it is called taxation and it is now taxing a percentage of your labour. The concept is the same, though, except much more humane than feudalism was.


Good point, I mean under Feudalism you did whatever job the Lord over you told you to do, you didn't have a choice. There was virtually no way to better yourself or your position in society and there was no democratic institutions for the implementation of public policy. If the Lord of the manner need conscripts to go fight somewhere well you got drafted. If the lord told you to work the fields you did.


True. And several States are, gradually, getting better in that regard. I'm not so rabid an anarchist that I ignore the obvious.
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Postby 4years » Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:36 pm

Distruzio wrote:
Ichverratnix wrote:Could you outline your definition of "free society"?
Why do you emphasise on "free" instead of, say, "egalitarian"?


1. Because liberty and equality are mutually exclusive. 2. Liberty can, however, elevate equitable social situations whereas equality ALWAYS depresses libertarian social situations.


1. Wrong, liberty is a form of equality.
2. You just killed the English language.
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Postby Llamalandia » Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:41 pm

4years wrote:
Distruzio wrote:
1. Because liberty and equality are mutually exclusive. 2. Liberty can, however, elevate equitable social situations whereas equality ALWAYS depresses libertarian social situations.


1. Wrong, liberty is a form of equality.
2. You just killed the English language.


Ok then how do you define liberty? I would say that liberty allows for free enterprise and unequal outcomes among participants who start from initially equally opportunities. I would say liberty may be but is not always (or often) compatible with equality.

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