Why would libertarianism not work?

[Ponderosa]

That seems to be an "All X is Y" statement.

It isn't.

Are all libertarians spoiled, bratty teenagers?

[Mavorpen]

It isn't.

Are all libertarians spoiled, bratty teenagers?

No. That's impossible.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Wasn't the Gilded Age a result of crony capitalism? If not, my mistake.

No, the gilded age was unrestrained free market polices. There was widespread corruption, which is as inventible part of rampant free markets, but that was a product of the initial free market binge.

Bullshit.

Unless you count government subsidies, tariffs, union prohibition, the rise of businessmen via war contracting and government indebtedness to them (Civil War in particular stands out here), and of course the fun, fun corruption the more centralized element the federal government took on and the new responsibilities and claims it made on items as somehow free market. Which is about as stupid as thinking communism denotes everyone sharing the same toothbrush. Politicians dealt in land claims and futures-dabbling, of which the railroads are likely the largest exemplar, while simultaneously running offices with influence over those same items. Them exploiting that position is no more the result of free market policies than the holodomar in the Ukraine was the result of Stalin's uber-hardcore communism. Not to mention other 'minor' items like the advent of major patent laws in the United States and excise taxes on many goods, you seem to be operating under an asinine definition of free market.

[Blasveck]

No, the gilded age was unrestrained free market polices. There was widespread corruption, which is as inventible part of rampant free markets, but that was a product of the initial free market binge.

Bullshit.

Unless you count government subsidies, tariffs, union prohibition, the rise of businessmen via war contracting and government indebtedness to them (Civil War in particular stands out here), and of course the fun, fun corruption the more centralized element the federal government took on and the new responsibilities and claims it made on items as somehow free market. Which is about as stupid as thinking communism denotes everyone sharing the same toothbrush. Politicians dealt in land claims and futures-dabbling, of which the railroads are likely the largest exemplar, while simultaneously running offices with influence over those same items. Them exploiting that position is no more the result of free market policies than the holodomar in the Ukraine was the result of Stalin's uber-hardcore communism. Not to mention other 'minor' items like the advent of major patent laws in the United States and excise taxes on many goods, you seem to be operating under an asinine definition of free market.

So basically, Crony Capitalism?

[Kanery]

I've always felt that they restrict themselves with the view that the only meaningful way a person can be harmed is by another person working through the government.

[Threlizdun]

Elaborate Torc.

Why not?

I'm pro-tax, anti-states rights, anti-free market capitalism, I don't like privatization, etc. etc. etc.

None of those beliefs are incompatible with libertarianism.

[Genivaria]

I'm pro-tax, anti-states rights, anti-free market capitalism, I don't like privatization, etc. etc. etc.

None of those beliefs are incompatible with libertarianism.

Just anti-Libertarian Party.

[Threlizdun]

None of those beliefs are incompatible with libertarianism.

Just anti-Libertarian Party.

Which any libertarian should be

[Genivaria]

Just anti-Libertarian Party.

Which any libertarian should be

Agreed.

[Blasveck]

Just anti-Libertarian Party.

Which any libertarian should be

Which most are.

The sane ones, at least.

[Gallup]

I like it's economic policies, but not really it's social policies.

[Regnum Dominae]

Just anti-Libertarian Party.

Which any libertarian should be

Including right-libertarians.

[Liriena]

Libertarianism does have its merits as an ideology, but it's ultimately unrealistic and would do a lot more harm than good in most nations in the world.

[Slafstopia]

I like libertarianism. As in, libertarian communism. Everyone acts like libertarianism is always the same as what ancaps and the Libertarian Party preach. I'm a left anarchist, I don't agree with the Libertarian Party, and I don't agree with the free market. I'm still a libertarian.

[Bendira]

My thoughts on libertarianism are quite simple, actually: the very idea tends to spawn way more internet forum threads than strictly necessary. Also libertarianism is pretty much an internet thing and nothing more. Remember: according to the internet Ron Paul would have become president. We all know how that turned out.

The far-left is way more internet based than libertarianism.

And besides, the reason why radical politics is found so often on the internet is because isolated radicals are alienated from their peers, so they turn to the internet.

Also, lets face it, past generations didn't stand a chance. Without the internet there was no alternative source of information in order to recognize how corrupt and debased government is. Obviously the internet is going to have a lot of radicals.

[Vazdania]

My thoughts on libertarianism are quite simple, actually: the very idea tends to spawn way more internet forum threads than strictly necessary. Also libertarianism is pretty much an internet thing and nothing more. Remember: according to the internet Ron Paul would have become president. We all know how that turned out.

The far-left is way more internet based than libertarianism.

And besides, the reason why radical politics is found so often on the internet is because isolated radicals are alienated from their peers, so they turn to the internet.

Also, lets face it, past generations didn't stand a chance. Without the internet there was no alternative source of information in order to recognize how corrupt and debased government is. Obviously the internet is going to have a lot of radicals.

=_= and radical right.......

[Minarchist States]

I eat sleep and breathe libertarianism. I fully support the LP of A.

[Minarchist States]

The far-left is way more internet based than libertarianism.

And besides, the reason why radical politics is found so often on the internet is because isolated radicals are alienated from their peers, so they turn to the internet.

Also, lets face it, past generations didn't stand a chance. Without the internet there was no alternative source of information in order to recognize how corrupt and debased government is. Obviously the internet is going to have a lot of radicals.

=_= and radical right.......

The Nazis are centrists, if that's what you are referring too.

[Kilobugya]

It may have seemed a nice idea, in the wave of the Enlightenment, when the primary source of oppression and exploitation was absolute monarchies, feudalism and religions, but it's at best utterly naive in the modern world.

It doesn't account for the need of vast infrastructures (railroad, energy, ...) which the market is bad at building, for massive research projects (NASA, CERN, LHC, ITER, ...), for the actual source of oppression and exploitation which is corporations and exploitation on the working place. It doesn't account for game theory, and the fact that the market leads to the defect equilibrium in prisonner's dilemma. It doesn't account that freedom, to be real and not just theoretical, requires material conditions for it (freedom of the press is useless if people don't know how to read, freedom of movement is useless if they don't have transport infrastructures or can't afford them, ...). It doesn't account for the fact that the market, like evolution, is clumsy, blind and inefficient, while engineering and planning are able to see ahead. It doesn't account for the high level of inequality the markets converge towards, nor the degressive value of money, where millions of people would see their lives vastly improved with a hundred more dollars, while some people wouldn't even notice loosing a billion.

In our current world, libertarianism just leads to broken infrastructure, pollution, lack of fundamental research, massive misery and suffering, exploitation and waste of resources. We need to do much better, and we can do it.

[Agritum]

I do like Civil Libertarianism and the ideas of Left Libertarianism.

[European Socialist Republic]

So basically, Crony Capitalism?

Or as we call it: "capitalism".

[Grenartia]

It may have seemed a nice idea, in the wave of the Enlightenment, when the primary source of oppression and exploitation was absolute monarchies, feudalism and religions, but it's at best utterly naive in the modern world.

It doesn't account for the need of vast infrastructures (railroad, energy, ...) which the market is bad at building, for massive research projects (NASA, CERN, LHC, ITER, ...), for the actual source of oppression and exploitation which is corporations and exploitation on the working place. It doesn't account for game theory, and the fact that the market leads to the defect equilibrium in prisonner's dilemma. It doesn't account that freedom, to be real and not just theoretical, requires material conditions for it (freedom of the press is useless if people don't know how to read, freedom of movement is useless if they don't have transport infrastructures or can't afford them, ...). It doesn't account for the fact that the market, like evolution, is clumsy, blind and inefficient, while engineering and planning are able to see ahead. It doesn't account for the high level of inequality the markets converge towards, nor the degressive value of money, where millions of people would see their lives vastly improved with a hundred more dollars, while some people wouldn't even notice loosing a billion.

In our current world, libertarianism just leads to broken infrastructure, pollution, lack of fundamental research, massive misery and suffering, exploitation and waste of resources. We need to do much better, and we can do it.

This. You win all the intertubs. [/thread

[Distruzio]

Lolz.

I realised I kinda sidestepped the issue though. So do you reckon you are going to end up have an "ideal" and a "pragmatic" standard on your current views?

Well, I already do - being an anarcho-monarchist. Anarchy is the ideal... monarchism the pragmatic. Anarchy OR monarchy. He was asking me to temper my language, to reevaluate the anarchy bit.

[Distruzio]

I'm a libertarian but far from a Libertarian. I'm opposed to the Libertarian Party. I see it as Objectivist in substance and... well... I disapprove of Objectivism.

So I, obviously, approve of libertarianism.

[Distruzio]

Left libertarianism is nice, right libertarianism is a joke for spoiled bratty teenagers.

That's funny because I, often, say the same thing about left libertarians. That they are the spoiled children in need of a paddling.