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American officers request to be exempt from Canadian law

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Do you support American subjugation of Canada?

Yes. Canada is better off as part of the USA.
32
19%
No! LONG LIVE THE DOMINION OF CANADA, AND DOWN WITH IMPERIALISM!
109
66%
I don't care. Now, lemme eat my ice cream.
23
14%
I entrust Nevanmaa decide for me, after all, I will let him be tried by his own law.
1
1%
 
Total votes : 165

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Luziyca
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Civil Rights Lovefest

American officers request to be exempt from Canadian law

Postby Luziyca » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:24 am

Source

The United States wants its police officers to be exempt from Canadian law if they agree to take part in a highly touted cross-border policing initiative, says an internal RCMP memo.

The debate over whose laws would apply to U.S. officers working in Canada raises important questions of sovereignty and police accountability, says the briefing note prepared for RCMP Commissioner Bob Paulson.

"Canadians would likely have serious concerns with cross-designated officers from the U.S. not being accountable for their actions in Canada."

The planned pilot project — part of a sweeping Canada-U.S. perimeter security pact — would see the two countries build on joint border-policing efforts by creating integrated teams in areas such as intelligence and criminal investigations.

The perimeter deal, being phased in over several years, aims to ensure the safe, speedy passage of goods and people across the 49th parallel while bolstering North American defences.

The October 2012 RCMP memo was intended to brief Paulson for a meeting with David Moloney, a senior adviser to the Privy Council Office for implementing the vaunted perimeter security deal. A censored version of the classified document was recently obtained by The Canadian Press under the Access to Information Act.

It notes that plans were underway for trial projects in the areas of policing and the preclearance of truck cargo, each involving U.S. officers working alongside Canadian counterparts.

The cargo pilot project — which has since been announced — entails U.S. Customs and Border Protection officers working in Fort Erie, Ont., and Surrey, B.C., to pre-inspect southbound shipments according to American customs procedures.

The so-called Next Generation policing project — whose pilots have yet to be finalized — would involve U.S. and Canadian officers working on each other's turf to enforce the host country's laws.

However, according to the RCMP, the two countries haven't seen eye to eye on the tricky question of which country's legal system would deal with a police officer accused of breaking the law.

Whose laws apply?

Traditionally, co-operative initiatives in cross-border law enforcement and border management have been based on the notion that the laws of the host country apply to illegal acts on its territory and that host-country courts would have jurisdiction, says the RCMP memo.

"However, the U.S. has recently expressed concerns with the continued application of the 'host country law model' and has requested that its officers be exempted from the laws or the jurisdiction of the ordinary courts in Canada in the context of the Next Gen and Preclearance initiatives."

For the cargo preclearance pilot projects, announced in March, Canadian law will apply to U.S. customs officers, said Public Safety Canada spokeswoman Josee Picard.

But the issue remains unsettled for the policing initiative, which was supposed to be up and running last year.

The RCMP memo says there are several reasons why it "remains appropriate" for host country laws and courts to continue holding sway, including:

*the fact it is generally the right of sovereign states to have jurisdiction over unlawful acts in its territory;
*the Canadian and U.S. justice systems are very similar when it comes to use of force by police;
*the border pact was negotiated on the understanding that the countries' respective legal frameworks would apply.

"Canadians place a high value on sovereignty and police accountability," the briefing note adds.

A preliminary assessment indicates it "would not be feasible nor desirable to have two law enforcement officers working together being subjected to different regimes for accountability and criminal liability," the memo says.

But senior Mounties recommended to Paulson that the RCMP participate in the development of options, "ensuring that law enforcement concerns are properly addressed, rather than taking a firm stance on retaining the status quo."

Any new model must be fully reciprocal, providing Canadian police with the same protections in the United States as granted to U.S. law enforcement officials working in Canada, adds the RCMP briefing note.

"This may alleviate any concerns that there may be with respect to RCMP members being subjected to the U.S. court system."

RCMP Sgt. Julie Gagnon said the force had no comment on the memo.

Public Safety has said it would be inappropriate to discuss Canada-U.S. negotiations on the legal framework for the policing initiative.

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security did not respond to a request for comment.


So, in a nutshell, if they take part, Americans want their laws to apply to American police officers. What do you think of this proposal?

In my opinion, allowing American police officers to be exempt from Canadian law poses a troubling situation, since they pretty much, in a nutshell, want it to be by two-different regimes: Canadians by their laws, American by their own laws. It is not a good idea, considering that I agree with the fact that "the fact it is generally the right of sovereign states to have jurisdiction over unlawful acts in its territory."

That's right. Knowing that some American cops can abuse their own power, means that if we put them in Canada, and put our citizens in danger, they cannot be tried on our soil because they happen to be American police. Another reason why I oppose it is the fear that they may abuse their power. If say, a "loose trigger" cop was enforcing the law here, he may probably be more violent than our Canadian counterparts and the Americans would let him or her get away with it. I would not really trust an American cop in this case, if the NEXT Generation initiative works.

Hence, considering those two arguments, and the fact that we are stripping our duty to protect our sovereignty (part of it, really) to them, means that I oppose it. If their "proposal" is implemented, I'd lose faith in Canada, since it would virtually have become an American puppet state. I will only be "meh" to it, however, if it lets Canada do the same thing with their officers. But I can't say I'll really support it.

So, do you support the American plan, oppose it, or find it meh?
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The North Polish Union
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Postby The North Polish Union » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:32 am

No, leave us alone 'Murica.
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Postby New Libertarian States » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:34 am

The North Polish Union wrote:No, leave us alone 'Murica.

*slowly lights fireworks*
On topic, agreed NPU, we shouldn't impose American laws on other countries.
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Luziyca
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Postby Luziyca » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:35 am

The North Polish Union wrote:No, leave us alone 'Murica.

Pretty much. How'd you like it if Finland tried to enforce Finnish law on the USA, or the EU enforcing European law on the USA?

Thought so. Don't be a hypocrite, America.

New Libertarian States wrote:
The North Polish Union wrote:No, leave us alone 'Murica.

*slowly lights fireworks*
On topic, agreed NPU, we shouldn't impose American laws on other countries.

Exactly.
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Varnova
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Postby Varnova » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:40 am

Why on Earth would this even be suggested/requested? While in a foreign country you are subject to their laws and customs, no matter how silly/unmoral they might seem to you. I hate America's attitude towards other countries, yet America expects other countries to respect them, America is sad.
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Imota
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Postby Imota » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:42 am

Only if Canadian cops are exempted from US law while on US soil.

Just kidding. Of course the laws of the host country should apply. It's just easier when everyone works with the same set of rules.

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Wisconsin9
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Postby Wisconsin9 » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:43 am

That poll's either a slippery slope or irrelevant to the topic.

That said, as an American who hopes to become a police officer, I agree with you.
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The Tiger Kingdom
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Postby The Tiger Kingdom » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:44 am

Varnova wrote:Why on Earth would this even be suggested/requested? While in a foreign country you are subject to their laws and customs, no matter how silly/unmoral they might seem to you. I hate America's attitude towards other countries, yet America expects other countries to respect them, America is sad.

jelly much
If it's any consolation, I'm very tired of your (very common) attitude that every single other country in the world is the victim of America. It's a dog-eat-dog world, and you look for any leverage you can get. Every single other country in the world operates on this principle.
But this looks so ridiculously one-sided anyway that it seems almost a foregone conclusion that shit is getting left out.
Also, great poll. Well done.
Last edited by The Tiger Kingdom on Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Anvilonia
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Postby Anvilonia » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:45 am

My little America can't be this imperialist!

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Tiltjuice
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Postby Tiltjuice » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:48 am

Luziyca wrote:
The North Polish Union wrote:No, leave us alone 'Murica.

Pretty much. How'd you like it if Finland tried to enforce Finnish law on the USA, or the EU enforcing European law on the USA?

Thought so. Don't be a hypocrite, America.


But that's not what the article said, is it?

American police officers are American nationals. Therefore American law would be enforced on American citizens.

And since you're slanging our criminal justice system, which is, according to the article, largely similar to your own, I consider your argument to be fatally flawed. Either that, or you secretly don't like your own law enforcement.

And the RCMP is not lily-white, either. Robert Dziekanski ring a bell?
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Luziyca
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Postby Luziyca » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:50 am

Varnova wrote:Why on Earth would this even be suggested/requested? While in a foreign country you are subject to their laws and customs, no matter how silly/unmoral they might seem to you. I hate America's attitude towards other countries, yet America expects other countries to respect them, America is sad.

Amen. Hence the statement as seen here.

Luziyca wrote:
The North Polish Union wrote:No, leave us alone 'Murica.

Pretty much. How'd you like it if Finland tried to enforce Finnish law on the USA, or the EU enforcing European law on the USA?

Thought so. Don't be a hypocrite, America.


As for why, probably because America feels that Canada is getting too "loose" from American influence, and that it needs to rein us in.

Imota wrote:Only if Canadian cops are exempted from US law while on US soil.

Just kidding. Of course the laws of the host country should apply. It's just easier when everyone works with the same set of rules.

I agree. If they request it, at least let us do the same for the sake of consistency.

Wisconsin9 wrote:That poll's either a slippery slope or irrelevant to the topic.

That said, as an American who hopes to become a police officer, I agree with you.

Well, when you boil down to the poll, it has a Yes, No, Meh, and a joke entry there.

In regards to your statement, I really prefer that you become a politician, just to actually change things.

The Tiger Kingdom wrote:
Varnova wrote:Why on Earth would this even be suggested/requested? While in a foreign country you are subject to their laws and customs, no matter how silly/unmoral they might seem to you. I hate America's attitude towards other countries, yet America expects other countries to respect them, America is sad.

jelly much
If it's any consolation, I'm very tired of your (very common) attitude that every single other country in the world is the victim of America. It's a dog-eat-dog world, and you look for any leverage you can get. Every single other country in the world operates on this principle.
But this looks so ridiculously one-sided anyway that it seems almost a foregone conclusion that shit is getting left out.
Also, great poll. Well done.

If you are talking to me, yes, it is a dog-eat-dog world, but ideally, it should be two or more entities that are powerful that keep each other in check. Nowadays, there is only one, the USA, before 1991, the USSR and the USA kept each other in check, and if we got further down, in Europe, in the 1800s, it'd be France and Britain, as well as Russia.

As for the poll, thank you. :)

Anvilonia wrote:My little America can't be this imperialist!

:rofl:

It has been worse. See Guatemala, Iran (under the Shah), Chile (Pinochet), Manifest Destiny... I said too much.
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Vandelstein
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Postby Vandelstein » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:50 am

That is basically infringing on the sovereignty of another country within its own lands. Call it what you like, but for me, this is just another way of invading Canada indirectly.

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Cascadan
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Postby Cascadan » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:50 am

Often times, people don't know everything that's illegal in their own country, let alone in other countries.

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Postby Oceasia » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:50 am

Fuck off of Canada, 'Murica! :evil:
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The Tiger Kingdom
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Postby The Tiger Kingdom » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:52 am

Luziyca wrote:
The Tiger Kingdom wrote:jelly much
If it's any consolation, I'm very tired of your (very common) attitude that every single other country in the world is the victim of America. It's a dog-eat-dog world, and you look for any leverage you can get. Every single other country in the world operates on this principle.
But this looks so ridiculously one-sided anyway that it seems almost a foregone conclusion that shit is getting left out.
Also, great poll. Well done.

If you are talking to me, yes, it is a dog-eat-dog world, but ideally, it should be two or more entities that are powerful that keep each other in check. Nowadays, there is only one, the USA, before 1991, the USSR and the USA kept each other in check, and if we got further down, in Europe, in the 1800s, it'd be France and Britain, as well as Russia.

As for the poll, thank you. :)

Wasn't talking to you (hence somebody else's quote up there in front of my rebuttal), and I was being sarcastic, the poll is laughably biased.

Vandelstein wrote:That is basically infringing on the sovereignty of another country within its own lands. Call it what you like, but for me, this is just another way of invading Canada indirectly.

What the fuck news item can't people turn into "AMERICA WANTS TO INVADE THE WORLD"?
Last edited by The Tiger Kingdom on Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Regnum Dominae » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:53 am

I agree with you but that poll is ridiculous.
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Postby Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:53 am

Varnova wrote:Why on Earth would this even be suggested/requested? While in a foreign country you are subject to their laws and customs, no matter how silly/unmoral they might seem to you. I hate America's attitude towards other countries, yet America expects other countries to respect them, America is sad.

That is why we Latin Americans don't bother dem güeros saying we're illegal immigrants and that this is being a criminal, they made our countries poor and dependent first, their problem. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL :lol:
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Postby Wisconsin9 » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:53 am

Luziyca wrote:
Wisconsin9 wrote:That poll's either a slippery slope or irrelevant to the topic.

That said, as an American who hopes to become a police officer, I agree with you.

Well, when you boil down to the poll, it has a Yes, No, Meh, and a joke entry there.

In regards to your statement, I really prefer that you become a politician, just to actually change things.

I've considered it, but I'm the kind of person who's too set in what I believe in to lie and pander. Plus I'd probably snap and strangle someone during a debate. Lord knows I've wanted to do it here.
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Postby The Tiger Kingdom » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:54 am

Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro wrote:
Varnova wrote:Why on Earth would this even be suggested/requested? While in a foreign country you are subject to their laws and customs, no matter how silly/unmoral they might seem to you. I hate America's attitude towards other countries, yet America expects other countries to respect them, America is sad.

That is why we Latin Americans don't bother dem güeros saying we're illegal immigrants and that this is being a criminal, they made our countries poor and dependent first, their problem. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL :lol:

To be fair, we don't all have (as the wiki says in the definition of "guero") "blonde or red hair".
So check your bigotry, please.
Last edited by The Tiger Kingdom on Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Farnhamia » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:55 am

Vandelstein wrote:That is basically infringing on the sovereignty of another country within its own lands. Call it what you like, but for me, this is just another way of invading Canada indirectly.

How is Canadian sovereignty being infringed upon? It's joint operation and all the Canadians have to do is say no.
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Luziyca
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Postby Luziyca » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:55 am

Tiltjuice wrote:
Luziyca wrote:Pretty much. How'd you like it if Finland tried to enforce Finnish law on the USA, or the EU enforcing European law on the USA?

Thought so. Don't be a hypocrite, America.


But that's not what the article said, is it?

American police officers are American nationals. Therefore American law would be enforced on American citizens.

And since you're slanging our criminal justice system, which is, according to the article, largely similar to your own, I consider your argument to be fatally flawed. Either that, or you secretly don't like your own law enforcement.

And the RCMP is not lily-white, either. Robert Dziekanski ring a bell?


It may seem similar to your system, but there has been a lot of things that make it different, such as the character. Here, our law enforcement tend to be less prone to the loose trigger cop, unlike in say, the USA. Here, you have a reduced chance that you would be killed by the police in Canada, let alone get executed.

Also, yes, but its record is cleaner than the USA.

Vandelstein wrote:That is basically infringing on the sovereignty of another country within its own lands. Call it what you like, but for me, this is just another way of invading Canada indirectly.

Pretty much this.

Cascadan wrote:Often times, people don't know everything that's illegal in their own country, let alone in other countries.

But when you come to think of it, does it mean that the argument is invalid? No. But I will not be surprised an American cop trying to enforce American law here and getting away if that happens.
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The Tiger Kingdom
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Postby The Tiger Kingdom » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:55 am

Farnhamia wrote:
Vandelstein wrote:That is basically infringing on the sovereignty of another country within its own lands. Call it what you like, but for me, this is just another way of invading Canada indirectly.

How is Canadian sovereignty being infringed upon? It's joint operation and all the Canadians have to do is say no.

Also this a million times. Nobody's demanding anything.
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The Norgan Alliance
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Postby The Norgan Alliance » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:56 am

Varnova wrote:Why on Earth would this even be suggested/requested? While in a foreign country you are subject to their laws and customs, no matter how silly/unmoral they might seem to you. I hate America's attitude towards other countries, yet America expects other countries to respect them, America is sad.

All this "America is the worst country ever" crap is getting annoying. At least it's for semi-good reasons this time.
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Luziyca
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Luziyca » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:56 am

Farnhamia wrote:
Vandelstein wrote:That is basically infringing on the sovereignty of another country within its own lands. Call it what you like, but for me, this is just another way of invading Canada indirectly.

How is Canadian sovereignty being infringed upon? It's joint operation and all the Canadians have to do is say no.

Well, it is not much of a joint operation when you let the officers operating in a host country to be tried in the country of which they came from.
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Nullarni
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Postby Nullarni » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:56 am

Basically this is to prevent American police officers and Canadian police officers from getting into trouble if they don't fully understand the other country's laws. Canadian law and American Law are pretty much the same when it comes to police conduct, but this would protect officers in fringe cases where their understanding of the differences is not clear.

The title of the thread is misleading. The entire thing would be reciprocal and would prevent officers on both sides from having to take special legal classes just to work with their counterparts on the other side of the border. It is to better allow cooperation, not to force American ideals on Canada.
Last edited by Nullarni on Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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