Should Animal Bloodsports be Legal?

[New Frenco Empire]

You said anyone who hunts recreationally is a psychopath.

My god, how much straw did it take to build that?
I specifically said signs of psychopathic disorders. That does not mean that 100% of all people who hunt or kill animals for amusement are psychopaths.
I've displayed how killing for amusement is a sign of psychopathic disorders. Hunting is usually lethal, but depending on your definition of "recreational", it could be for something other than amusement. Thus meaning my argument and logic would not apply to it.

And keeping your house clean can be a sign of OCD. Doesn't mean everyone who does it has OCD.

I don't understand what you're trying to get at.

[Des-Bal]

Can we finally get back to the topic of animal bloodsports? Also, you don't have the right to make anyone leave the thread.

Absolutely.

I'm not making him leave the thread he said he was done, I was assuring him it was okay.

[Meryuma]

And that's somehow better because...?

Because people kill animals. I don't see why doing it front of a bunch of cheering people is any different. Forcing two animals to fight is fucked up, forcing one animal to fight a person who enters the situation willingly is cool.

Only if you eat and wear the bull afterwards, which I seriously doubt they do.

What the fuck. No seriously, what the fuck?

Not a fan of hunting?

Hunting with high-tech guns for amusement and then letting your kill go to waste is fundamentally sick and spits in the face of actual subsistence hunting.

The only cockfighting I support involves steamy man-on-man romance.

Now that should be legal.

I don't hunt, but I occasionally like fishing. Fish really aren't as sentient as deer.

Do you eat your catch or let it go to waste? Do you take care to fish in an ecologically neutral or beneficial context or just go "fuck it, I got mine"?

Also, sentience isn't a qualifier for cruelty.

Are you sure you're not thinking of sapience?

AFL bias.

Animal Front Liberation?

[New Frenco Empire]

I don't hunt, but I occasionally like fishing. Fish really aren't as sentient as deer.

Do you eat your catch or let it go to waste? Do you take care to fish in an ecologically neutral or beneficial context or just go "fuck it, I got mine"?

No. I usually just throw it back after seeing what it is. I just doubt I'm a psychopath for enjoying casual fishing from time to time.

[Des-Bal]

Only if you eat and wear the bull afterwards, which I seriously doubt they do.



Hunting with high-tech guns for amusement and then letting your kill go to waste is fundamentally sick and spits in the face of actual subsistence hunting.

I''m pretty sure they eat it.

I don't care about subsistence hunting it is no more special than any other form of food acquisition. There is nothing fundamentally sick about killing an animal.

[Des-Bal]

No. I usually just throw it back after seeing what it is. I just doubt I'm a psychopath for enjoying casual fishing from time to time.

I catch and release 99% of the fish, if I get a nice one at a convenient time I have it for lunch.

[The Four Corners Commonwealth]

Let me explain this to you; find me a source that says recreational fishing and hunting are signs of psychopathy. I do not respect your credentials on the matter.

I found a source that says harming animals for amusement is linked to a future of violence, hence a psychological problem.

You're right, it IS linked, but its not clear wether it is causal or not. Ie. Does it CAUSE future violence, or are violent individuals already predisposed to harming animals? A classic "correlation is not causation" is the fact that drowning is correlated with ice cream sales. Naturally, people don't drown in ice cream. A third factor is at play, the fact that it is summer.This can be found in any intro-psychology book (I'm a psychology major). Multiple studies using statistical tests (I believe they were solomon 4-square tests to be specific) have looked at videogames and future violence, and did not find meaningful results).

You're argument has another flaw in it, intent. In general, people who fish are not intending to harm the animal. It's not necessarily even something that occurs to the individual. Partly this is due to the thousands of years of ingrained culture that says fishing is fundamentally ok, so long as you follow local laws, etc. TRUE psychopaths KNOWINGLY and DELIBERATELY cause the suffering they do. Hunters, fishers, etc. take great care NOT to harm the animal in the process, and laws specifically exist to prevent unnecessary pain for the animal. In large part that's one reason crossbows and bows are sometimes looked down upon in hunting, because if you hurt the animal it's stuck with a bolt or arrow in its side until it either falls out or until the animal dies from infection unless you can track it and finish it off. Though that stereotype isn't necessarily true, it shows how even the hunting community is very aware of the suffering that can be caused by improper technique or lack of care. Much of the basis of ALF and PETA is that all animals are equal, by whatever virtue, and all should have equal protection. Culturally however some animals are "lesser" than others, with some animals being "companions" and others being "food". Cows are food, dogs are companions, etc. This is subject to individual cultural values, with some societies eating horse, while USA typically does not.

I am NOT however pro-animal death fighting. The treatment of those animals is usually painful and barbaric. However, again, I'm not going to oppose the spanish bull fighting as it is a cultural affair, one that is fading away. This matter for them seems to be solved internally, which is much better than someone else telling them what to do.

[Nazi Flower Power]

...No. No it shouldn't. I can't believe there are people who actually claim otherwise. I know NSG is a breeding ground of people with terrible, evil ideas, but this is certainly a new low.

Dude, we've had pro-paedophilia posters on here before. This is in no way a new low.

^This. I don't see why people get so worked up about cockfighting or whatever. It doesn't appeal to me personally, but I don't think it's a huge outrage either.

I honestly do not care whether it's legal or not. The cruelty to animals is something of a turn-off, but my inner libertarian says people have a right to do what they want for entertainment. And I've never been able to make up my mind which is more important: the animals' right not to be exploited or killed, or the owners' right to do what they want with their animals.

[Luveria]

Dude, we've had pro-paedophilia posters on here before. This is in no way a new low.

^This. I don't see why people get so worked up about cockfighting or whatever. It doesn't appeal to me personally, but I don't think it's a huge outrage either.

I honestly do not care whether it's legal or not. The cruelty to animals is something of a turn-off, but my inner libertarian says people have a right to do what they want for entertainment. And I've never been able to make up my mind which is more important: the animals' right not to be exploited or killed, or the owners' right to do what they want with their animals.

Wouldn't your Libertarian ideals equally apply to slavery, were it legal?

[Des-Bal]

^This. I don't see why people get so worked up about cockfighting or whatever. It doesn't appeal to me personally, but I don't think it's a huge outrage either.

I honestly do not care whether it's legal or not. The cruelty to animals is something of a turn-off, but my inner libertarian says people have a right to do what they want for entertainment. And I've never been able to make up my mind which is more important: the animals' right not to be exploited or killed, or the owners' right to do what they want with their animals.

I'm in the same place. I've currently decided that while a person killing an animal (bullfighting) is acceptable an animal killing an animal isn't. Ultimately I can't feel strongly one way or another so I ultimately would want cockfighting and such to be penalized fairly lightly.

[The Four Corners Commonwealth]

^This. I don't see why people get so worked up about cockfighting or whatever. It doesn't appeal to me personally, but I don't think it's a huge outrage either.

I honestly do not care whether it's legal or not. The cruelty to animals is something of a turn-off, but my inner libertarian says people have a right to do what they want for entertainment. And I've never been able to make up my mind which is more important: the animals' right not to be exploited or killed, or the owners' right to do what they want with their animals.

Wouldn't your Libertarian ideals equally apply to slavery, were it legal?

Not necessarily, because libertarian ideals mean that everyone has the same inherent freedom both from oppression and interference by a higher power (which can be interpreted as a type of oppression).
Slavery is inherently oppressive, with the individuals life being interfered with by a higher power (slave holder) with the intent of harming/taking advantage of them. That is not within libertarian ideals.

[Arkandros]

We already have bloodsports. It's called war.

[German-Spanish Empire]

^This. I don't see why people get so worked up about cockfighting or whatever. It doesn't appeal to me personally, but I don't think it's a huge outrage either.

I honestly do not care whether it's legal or not. The cruelty to animals is something of a turn-off, but my inner libertarian says people have a right to do what they want for entertainment. And I've never been able to make up my mind which is more important: the animals' right not to be exploited or killed, or the owners' right to do what they want with their animals.

I'm in the same place. I've currently decided that while a person killing an animal (bullfighting) is acceptable an animal killing an animal isn't. Ultimately I can't feel strongly one way or another so I ultimately would want cockfighting and such to be penalized fairly lightly.

I think cockfighting should be a misdemeanor or a fine at least. People do muli-year sentences in jail! That's ridiculous.

[Pagan Hungary]

Not too keen on animals being bred and forced to fight; I'd much rather eat the animal while watching boxing. Animals don't really have too many defined rights but they're above being kept and provoked just to fight other animals to the death.

[Nazi Flower Power]

^This. I don't see why people get so worked up about cockfighting or whatever. It doesn't appeal to me personally, but I don't think it's a huge outrage either.

I honestly do not care whether it's legal or not. The cruelty to animals is something of a turn-off, but my inner libertarian says people have a right to do what they want for entertainment. And I've never been able to make up my mind which is more important: the animals' right not to be exploited or killed, or the owners' right to do what they want with their animals.

Wouldn't your Libertarian ideals equally apply to slavery, were it legal?

Slavery is different because there you're balancing the rights of two people instead of a person and an animal.

[United Marxist Nations]

No. It's sick to force animals to fight for your own gain.

Humans force humans to fight for their own gain all the time!

[Des-Bal]

We already have bloodsports. It's called war.

That's asinine and off topic.

[Nazi Flower Power]

^This. I don't see why people get so worked up about cockfighting or whatever. It doesn't appeal to me personally, but I don't think it's a huge outrage either.

I honestly do not care whether it's legal or not. The cruelty to animals is something of a turn-off, but my inner libertarian says people have a right to do what they want for entertainment. And I've never been able to make up my mind which is more important: the animals' right not to be exploited or killed, or the owners' right to do what they want with their animals.

I'm in the same place. I've currently decided that while a person killing an animal (bullfighting) is acceptable an animal killing an animal isn't. Ultimately I can't feel strongly one way or another so I ultimately would want cockfighting and such to be penalized fairly lightly.

I don't see why it matters if it's a person or another animal that does the killing. I doubt the animals care.

[German-Spanish Empire]

No. It's sick to force animals to fight for your own gain.

Humans force humans to fight for their own gain all the time!

Exactly! Have you heard off MMA or Boxing? Humans watch it like neanderthals! People bleed and this causes lifetime mental illnesses which can result in death.

[Des-Bal]

I don't see why it matters if it's a person or another animal that does the killing. I doubt the animals care.

Animals are inherently nonconsenting parties and I believe people do have a responsibility of care for animals they own.

[United Marxist Nations]

Humans force humans to fight for their own gain all the time!

Exactly! Have you heard off MMA or Boxing? Humans watch it like neanderthals! People bleed and this causes lifetime mental illnesses which can result in death.

Actually, I was referring more to warfare.

[German-Spanish Empire]

Exactly! Have you heard off MMA or Boxing? Humans watch it like neanderthals! People bleed and this causes lifetime mental illnesses which can result in death.

Actually, I was referring more to warfare.

Oh...well...there goes my point...

[Nazi Flower Power]

I don't see why it matters if it's a person or another animal that does the killing. I doubt the animals care.

Animals are inherently nonconsenting parties and I believe people do have a responsibility of care for animals they own.

Then why is bullfighting OK? The bull didn't consent.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Humans force humans to fight for their own gain all the time!

Exactly! Have you heard off MMA or Boxing? Humans watch it like neanderthals! People bleed and this causes lifetime mental illnesses which can result in death.

Humans also consent to participating in such.
Animals...kind of lack that capability.

[German-Spanish Empire]

Animals are inherently nonconsenting parties and I believe people do have a responsibility of care for animals they own.

Then why is bullfighting OK? The bull didn't consent.

Don't they put hot metal to the bulls testicles? Yeah,real consenting.