Australian Elections 2013

[Blouman Empire]

That could be due to a personal relationship with Abbott.

They've had a lot of opportunity to become friends/allies over the years. Both are sons of immigrants (Hockey Australian-born to parents from Lebanon and Armenia, Abbott born in England with one parent Australian and the other English). Both are avowed Catholics and educated at (private) Catholic schools on the North Shore of Sydney. Both attended Sydney University (Arts/Law for Hockey, Economics and Law dual degrees for Abbott) where they certainly would have met, with only 3 years age difference between them. Both were residents of St John's college at that university, and both were involved in student politics: in fact, at different times both were elected President of the Student's Represenatitive Council at that university.

Their paths would have diverged for a while, as Abbott took up the Rhodes scholarship at Oxford, then later entered a seminary for 3 years. Meanwhile Hocky worked as a lawyer, then as a staffer in the state parliament, but they came back together as members of Federal Parliament (Hocky elected '96, Abbot '94) then as ministers together and shadow ministers together.

I know all this because Big Joe spilled his life story to me after I saved his life from a malfunctioning hot-food vending machine. It's all from my usual source Wikipedia.

Yeah, so those two go back a long way, though that doesn't mean they're friends or they trust each other. Similarity of background and long association do sometimes take the form of bitter rivalry, and often well-hidden rivalry at that. You have to be careful around someone who knows your weaknesses and perhaps has some dirt on you from the past. Particularly if they're from your party, and you either appointed them Shadow Treasurer, or they appointed you. "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer".

My impression is that they're good friends but they don't talk much ... if that makes sense. If Tony calls up Joe and says "my count in the party room is looking bad, and Turnbull is an atheist commie ... do you want the job?" then Joe would be like "I would be honored Tony, thanks very much. Who can you get that I don't already have?" and that would be it. There would be an announcement, they'd call a vote for one week later ... some other moderate would run to split the Turnbull vote, and Hockey would win it fair and square.

A lot of speculation throughout that, is there anything that backs up the fact that they don't like each other?

[Blouman Empire]

the first time because he was a shit boss to work for.

Says who?

Says other politicians who were embittered by their sudden fall from grace, when the Gillard mob took over.

This is NSG. Give me a better source than a politician talking about another politician.

So you want a better source then the people that worked for him and with him? There was a reason why people are amazed Beattie has decided to be a potential person working for him back in the early 90's.

The NT tax favoritism proposal isn't bad per se. It would make sense as part of a wider program of tax favoritism, for regions with economic growth potential and huge latent unemployment. The NT has a big proportion of the population not even accounted in economic statistics, specifically Aborigines, and contrary to what's in the media, only a small proportion of them are on unemployment benefits, or getting any benefits (monetary or in-kind) at all. I don't see a problem with Aborigines living their traditional lifestyle on land they have title to live in, or even on crown land they don't have a title to established in court. Unless someone else is disputing title, there is no harm done to the State or to the Australian Commonwealth, or to anyone really. But. As a Territory the NT both allows and requires a greater Federal role than other areas called States. I think it is quite appropriate for the Federal government to take measures to lower official unemployment in the NT, to ensure that jobs are more readily available there, specifically so that Aborigines living the traditional lifestyle (or in the awkward position of being dependent on both, taking benefits or sharing benefits, not qualified for paid work but also not entirely accepted into the traditional communities which eschew benefits) can easily move into paid work if they so choose. I'm definitely not saying cut them off benefits, nor force them into work. I'm saying that a different tax regime, aimed at creating low registered unemployment or even a surplus of advertised job positions per applicant, would provide a paid employment alternative for aborigines if they chose to enter paid employment.

Lower taxes isn't my preferred solution of course. Lowering taxes has only a weak effect to provide jobs. Work subsidies are more effective, and job training is too. I'm saying the idea isn't bad per se, but if it really is a federal policy it should apply throughout Australia. WA to has a good proportion of the population living outside the money economy: if lower taxes to stimulate employment is a good idea in the NT, why not also in WA? Because they're a State, so they can deal with it all by themselves? Or Northern Queensland (which for sure, the population-heavy south of Queensland gives short shrift). Or inland NSW, or inland SA.

It's clumsy politics ... bad strategy ... by Rudd. If he's going to announce preferential tax treatment, he should do that in and for some place that has as significant number of voters. Every vote he might win in the NT by suggesting preferential tax treatment, is ten votes he will lose in WA where they've been bitching about their deprecated tax treatment for decades now.

It's clumsy, it's bad politics, but only a clumsy partisan hack would call it bad by intention. You need to distinguish bad strategy from bad intentions.

I wasn't calling the policy bad I was talking about the way he handled the announcement of it. Though it is interesting to now see the ALP candidates having to support a policy they said was terrible when Abbott floated the idea. Granted he was talking about more then just the NT but still.

If you were a television, I'd change the channel.

See, I think you might be interested in wanting to see what I am saying, similar to how a large number of Democrats watch Fox News.

[Blouman Empire]

I'd prefer Turnbull. That's a name with comedic potential ... all I can manage for Abbott is "the Ab-Bot" and that needs a sight gag to make it work.

It was better when Costello was also on the Liberal frontbench.....

I don't think Costello could have a top position in the shadow cabinet if Abbott is in power.

[Blouman Empire]

Ah yes that would make sense. So you don't think the other minor parties have a chance in that seat?

Any other State, and I'd be telling you to keep an eye on the Greens.

But the Greens and Queensland just don't get along....

Looks like Greens are going to lose their SA seat with Xenophon not wanting to preference them. Which is a bit odd to be honest.

[New Chalcedon]

It was better when Costello was also on the Liberal frontbench.....

I don't think Costello could have a top position in the shadow cabinet if Abbott is in power.

Surely Abbott wouldn't have wanted to deny the comedy gold!

Any other State, and I'd be telling you to keep an eye on the Greens.

But the Greens and Queensland just don't get along....

Looks like Greens are going to lose their SA seat with Xenophon not wanting to preference them. Which is a bit odd to be honest.

It would indeed - any source on Xenophon deciding to dump the Greens?

[Blouman Empire]

It would indeed - any source on Xenophon deciding to dump the Greens?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-16/x ... ns/4892174

http://www.nickxenophon.com.au/nicks-bl ... eferences/

And what is with the picture he has chosen for his website?

[Pagan Hungary]

not greens

[Forster Keys]

It would indeed - any source on Xenophon deciding to dump the Greens?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-16/x ... ns/4892174

http://www.nickxenophon.com.au/nicks-bl ... eferences/

And what is with the picture he has chosen for his website?

That pop up freaked me out. He kept wiggling at me.

[Blouman Empire]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-16/x ... ns/4892174

http://www.nickxenophon.com.au/nicks-bl ... eferences/

And what is with the picture he has chosen for his website?

That pop up freaked me out. He kept wiggling at me.

I must have pop ups disabled or something because I missed it.

Maybe he fancies you lol

[Forster Keys]

That pop up freaked me out. He kept wiggling at me.

I must have pop ups disabled or something because I missed it.

Maybe he fancies you lol

Well, how can I deny that face?

[Beta Test]

Did anyone see that Liberal candidate forced to step down after being connected to a website containing "hundreds" of inappropriate jokes about women?

[The Parkus Empire]

Did anyone see that Liberal candidate forced to step down after being connected to a website containing "hundreds" of inappropriate jokes about women?

No, and after seeing the video of Tony Abbott talking about Fiona Scott's "sex appeal", and still holding 50% support, I have a hard time buying it.

[Holyhex]

Did anyone see that Liberal candidate forced to step down after being connected to a website containing "hundreds" of inappropriate jokes about women?

No, and after seeing the video of Tony Abbott talking about Fiona Scott's "sex appeal", and still holding 50% support, I have a hard time buying it.

What the poll or the women having sex appeal?

[AiliailiA]

That could be due to a personal relationship with Abbott.

They've had a lot of opportunity to become friends/allies over the years. Both are sons of immigrants (Hockey Australian-born to parents from Lebanon and Armenia, Abbott born in England with one parent Australian and the other English). Both are avowed Catholics and educated at (private) Catholic schools on the North Shore of Sydney. Both attended Sydney University (Arts/Law for Hockey, Economics and Law dual degrees for Abbott) where they certainly would have met, with only 3 years age difference between them. Both were residents of St John's college at that university, and both were involved in student politics: in fact, at different times both were elected President of the Student's Represenatitive Council at that university.

Their paths would have diverged for a while, as Abbott took up the Rhodes scholarship at Oxford, then later entered a seminary for 3 years. Meanwhile Hocky worked as a lawyer, then as a staffer in the state parliament, but they came back together as members of Federal Parliament (Hocky elected '96, Abbot '94) then as ministers together and shadow ministers together.

I know all this because Big Joe spilled his life story to me after I saved his life from a malfunctioning hot-food vending machine. It's all from my usual source Wikipedia.

Yeah, so those two go back a long way, though that doesn't mean they're friends or they trust each other. Similarity of background and long association do sometimes take the form of bitter rivalry, and often well-hidden rivalry at that. You have to be careful around someone who knows your weaknesses and perhaps has some dirt on you from the past. Particularly if they're from your party, and you either appointed them Shadow Treasurer, or they appointed you. "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer".

My impression is that they're good friends but they don't talk much ... if that makes sense. If Tony calls up Joe and says "my count in the party room is looking bad, and Turnbull is an atheist commie ... do you want the job?" then Joe would be like "I would be honored Tony, thanks very much. Who can you get that I don't already have?" and that would be it. There would be an announcement, they'd call a vote for one week later ... some other moderate would run to split the Turnbull vote, and Hockey would win it fair and square.

A lot of speculation throughout that, is there anything that backs up the fact that they don't like each other?

I didn't say they don't like each other. I speculated, indeed, but not "throughout". They are old friends (or old rivals). Certainly in their policy pronouncements from Opposition it is clear they don't talk much to each other (as you would expect a leader and his shadow treasurer to do) and I speculated on why that may be.

Everything up to the strike out is taken from the Wikipedia pages for Abbott and Hockey respectively ... and don't mock Wikipedia: on matters like which school a public figure went to, what residential college they attended, what elected position they held at University, and their ministerial positions in Government and Opposition, Wikipedia is rock solid. If there was anything untrue about either of them there, be sure one of their staffers would have found it and had it corrected.

Do you dispute that they have known each other since University in the early 80's?

If you won't dispute that, then do not call my post "speculation throughout". Feel free to comment on the speculation, but just calling it speculation does not discredit it. Perhaps you'd like to try to refute it.

[Blouman Empire]

I didn't say they don't like each other. I speculated, indeed, but not "throughout". They are old friends (or old rivals). Certainly in their policy pronouncements from Opposition it is clear they don't talk much to each other (as you would expect a leader and his shadow treasurer to do) and I speculated on why that may be.

Everything up to the strike out is taken from the Wikipedia pages for Abbott and Hockey respectively ... and don't mock Wikipedia: on matters like which school a public figure went to, what residential college they attended, what elected position they held at University, and their ministerial positions in Government and Opposition, Wikipedia is rock solid. If there was anything untrue about either of them there, be sure one of their staffers would have found it and had it corrected.

Do you dispute that they have known each other since University in the early 80's?

If you won't dispute that, then do not call my post "speculation throughout". Feel free to comment on the speculation, but just calling it speculation does not discredit it. Perhaps you'd like to try to refute it.

You're asking me to refute a negative claim that there isn't rivalry between the two?

[Blouman Empire]

Update on the election odds.

The ALP have gone out even further over the past two weeks to $8.50

Pauline Hanson odds of not winning have gotten better but only slight moving from $1.01-$1.05

http://centrebet.com/#Sports/2062830

[The Parkus Empire]

No, and after seeing the video of Tony Abbott talking about Fiona Scott's "sex appeal", and still holding 50% support, I have a hard time buying it.

What the poll or the women having sex appeal?

The two being congruent.

[New Rogernomics]

If Abbot wins I will lose all faith in humanity, or the humans in Australia at least. Rudd isn't much better, so if I could vote (which I can't because I am not Australian) then I would vote Green.

[AiliailiA]

I didn't say they don't like each other. I speculated, indeed, but not "throughout". They are old friends (or old rivals). Certainly in their policy pronouncements from Opposition it is clear they don't talk much to each other (as you would expect a leader and his shadow treasurer to do) and I speculated on why that may be.

Everything up to the strike out is taken from the Wikipedia pages for Abbott and Hockey respectively ... and don't mock Wikipedia: on matters like which school a public figure went to, what residential college they attended, what elected position they held at University, and their ministerial positions in Government and Opposition, Wikipedia is rock solid. If there was anything untrue about either of them there, be sure one of their staffers would have found it and had it corrected.

Do you dispute that they have known each other since University in the early 80's?

If you won't dispute that, then do not call my post "speculation throughout". Feel free to comment on the speculation, but just calling it speculation does not discredit it. Perhaps you'd like to try to refute it.

You're asking me to refute a negative claim that there isn't rivalry between the two?

You're inventing a negative claim which I supposedly am asking you to defend. Screw that.

YOU replied to ME. I was replying to Beta Test.

You called my post "speculation throughout" ... without making any claim of your own, without disputing one word of my post, simply deprecating the whole thing.

I replied that the first half (up to the strike out, which save your soul if you can't find some humor in) was factual, and after that was speculative. I admitted that the second half was speculation, but you're not satisfied with that. You come with some sophistry about negative claims.

I directly asked you if you dispute any of the first half.

Here, again, is the only question I asked you:

Do you dispute that they have known each other since University in the early 80's?

Here is the first half of my post, up to the strike-out, and including the struck-out sentence to make clear that it isn't some snide claim but only a harmless joke, which very clearly marks where I move from the factual to the speculative:

That could be due to a personal relationship with Abbott.

They've had a lot of opportunity to become friends/allies over the years. Both are sons of immigrants (Hockey Australian-born to parents from Lebanon and Armenia, Abbott born in England with one parent Australian and the other English). Both are avowed Catholics and educated at (private) Catholic schools on the North Shore of Sydney. Both attended Sydney University (Arts/Law for Hockey, Economics and Law dual degrees for Abbott) where they certainly would have met, with only 3 years age difference between them. Both were residents of St John's college at that university, and both were involved in student politics: in fact, at different times both were elected President of the Student's Represenatitive Council at that university.

Their paths would have diverged for a while, as Abbott took up the Rhodes scholarship at Oxford, then later entered a seminary for 3 years. Meanwhile Hocky worked as a lawyer, then as a staffer in the state parliament, but they came back together as members of Federal Parliament (Hocky elected '96, Abbot '94) then as ministers together and shadow ministers together.

I know all this because Big Joe spilled his life story to me after I saved his life from a malfunctioning hot-food vending machine. It's all from my usual source Wikipedia.

Do you dispute any of this? Is it "speculation"?

If not, then concede that my post was not "speculation throughout".

The only point you have tried to make in this particular exchange, beginning when you replied to something I wrote to Beta Test ... is wrong. My post was not "speculation throughout". Concede that, or just sit there being wrong.

[Yaltabaoth]

If Abbot wins I will lose all faith in humanity, or the humans in Australia at least. Rudd isn't much better, so if I could vote (which I can't because I am not Australian) then I would vote Green.

Pff, the only "humans" in Australia are the Kiwis
Though as you point out, we can't vote. Which I think explains the dismalness of Australian politics.

On that note, did y'all know that an Australian living and working in NZ, and paying taxes to the NZ Govt, for one year is eligible to enrol for, and vote in, NZ elections, but a Kiwi living and working in Australia, for any period, and paying taxes to the Aus Govt, has to acquire a permanent visa to get voting rights?

(First half of post is not serious. Second half is.)

[Jinwoy]

I scanned General for an election thread.
When none appeared, I proceeded to make my own.
After I had finished, I decided to google "Australian election Nationstates" and this was the first result.

DAMN YOU, UCA!

Well. I like labour. Here is my two cents.
If you haven't pieced it together yet, Australia votes for "Parties" as our representatives to government, instead of a 'president'. You'd think it'd be more efficient at doing things for the people and improve the country further, but really it just makes our capitol a lot more noisier.

During this election, it'll be Rudd v. Abbott.
To summarize the two...
Imagine Kevin Rudd as an allegory of Steve Jobs, just infused with more politics. Rudd was kicked out and replaced by Prime Minister Gillard, who was kicked out and replaced with Rudd again right before the announcement of the date of the federal elections and as Gillard was growing dangerously unpopular which risked the possibility of labour getting elected again during the elections. As you can imagine, the switch back to Rudd was a popular move throughout the country and deeply angered Tony Abbott. I myself thought it was a shady move by labour, and I'm a supporter!

Imagine Tony Abbott as that one shady character who stands in the shadows of a tree, only ever emerging to start a conversation with you, and when you reply, he slaps you with a wad of money and empty promises that cannot seriously be true, because its simply unfeasible... at least for long periods of time.

No, I don't hate mothers who get maternity leave, I think that you shouldn't try to fix something that isn't broke.

[Jinwoy]

If Abbot wins I will lose all faith in humanity, or the humans in Australia at least. Rudd isn't much better, so if I could vote (which I can't because I am not Australian) then I would vote Green.

Pff, the only "humans" in Australia are the Kiwis
Though as you point out, we can't vote. Which I think explains the dismalness of Australian politics.

On that note, did y'all know that an Australian living and working in NZ, and paying taxes to the NZ Govt, for one year is eligible to enrol for, and vote in, NZ elections, but a Kiwi living and working in Australia, for any period, and paying taxes to the Aus Govt, has to acquire a permanent visa to get voting rights?

(First half of post is not serious. Second half is.)

There's a lot of things that Kiwi's can't do in Australia that Australians can do in New Zealand.
Are you seriously just figuring this out? <3
It's like... we playfully hate them, when they really hate our guts.

[New Rogernomics]

If Abbot wins I will lose all faith in humanity, or the humans in Australia at least. Rudd isn't much better, so if I could vote (which I can't because I am not Australian) then I would vote Green.

Pff, the only "humans" in Australia are the Kiwis
Though as you point out, we can't vote. Which I think explains the dismalness of Australian politics.

On that note, did y'all know that an Australian living and working in NZ, and paying taxes to the NZ Govt, for one year is eligible to enrol for, and vote in, NZ elections, but a Kiwi living and working in Australia, for any period, and paying taxes to the Aus Govt, has to acquire a permanent visa to get voting rights?

(First half of post is not serious. Second half is.)

They are rubbing in the fact that New Zealanders are moving to Australia in large numbers, and using the hard economic times in New Zealand as an excuse to tighten the borders. If I wanted to live in Australia and obtain citizenship, and voting rights, then I would be better off on my US passport than on my New Zealand. I could pass the Australian citizenship test easily, and it would only mean living a year or so more in Australia. But the question is, do I really want to be Australian, and the answer really is 'probably not'.

[Blouman Empire]

You're inventing a negative claim which I supposedly am asking you to defend. Screw that.

YOU replied to ME. I was replying to Beta Test.

So? I was engaging your response hoping you might be able to point to something that shows that their relationship isn't as cosy as they make out to be.

You called my post "speculation throughout" ... without making any claim of your own, without disputing one word of my post, simply deprecating the whole thing.

You're making a claim that they may have a distaste for each other and aren't exactly friends. I am yet to see anything apart from speculation that, that is the case.

I directly asked you if you dispute any of the first half.

Here, again, is the only question I asked you:

The only point you have tried to make in this particular exchange, beginning when you replied to something I wrote to Beta Test ... is wrong. My post was not "speculation throughout". Concede that, or just sit there being wrong.

You admit yourself that there was speculation within your post (under the striked out part), even in your post you don't state with certainty that they did meet during the uni days, maybe they did maybe they didn't the other facts are there and trust me if I thought any were wrong I would've pointed them out to you. In fact the reason why ignored your question is because it is plainly obvious that their background are just facts. Your speculation is that they are hiding a not so good relationship between each other from the public. This is what I brought up and questioned you on, not because I thought you were wrong but because I wanted to see if you had anything more concrete that has been reported on in the past and not that they weren't best friends during uni. We don't need this diversionary tactic saying your facts are right.


In the meantime this issue has allowed Kiwis and Seppos to overtake this thread and I'd much rather be living in Australia and an Australian citizen under an ALP or Liberal PM then in the US or an American.

[AiliailiA]

Well. I like labour. Here is my two cents.

If you haven't pieced it together yet, Australia votes for "Parties" as our representatives to government, instead of a 'president'. You'd think it'd be more efficient at doing things for the people and improve the country further, but really it just makes our capitol a lot more noisier.

During this election, it'll be Rudd v. Abbott.
To summarize the two...
Imagine Kevin Rudd as an allegory of Steve Jobs, just infused with more politics. Rudd was kicked out and replaced by Prime Minister Gillard, who was kicked out and replaced with Rudd again right before the announcement of the date of the federal elections and as Gillard was growing dangerously unpopular which risked the possibility of labour getting elected again during the elections. As you can imagine, the switch back to Rudd was a popular move throughout the country and deeply angered Tony Abbott. I myself thought it was a shady move by labour, and I'm a supporter!

Imagine Tony Abbott as that one shady character who stands in the shadows of a tree, only ever emerging to start a conversation with you, and when you reply, he slaps you with a wad of money and empty promises that cannot seriously be true, because its simply unfeasible... at least for long periods of time.

No, I don't hate mothers who get maternity leave, I think that you shouldn't try to fix something that isn't broke.

It's the Australian Labor Party, or just Labor. Early last century they were inspired by US spelling reform to rename themselves without the 'u'.

It's sort of good actually, because if they represented only the interests of the working class (and specifically the Unionized working class) they wouldn't stand a chance of getting elected.