Escaping the 'Gay Culture'

[Ostroeuropa]

i agree although ive found some of the more flamboyant ones to be annoying im sure there nice people but i dont think its necessary to act like that it does seem to discredit the other gays much like hoodlums discredit blacks

So you find a personality type annoying, big deal? At least you aren't sitting here implying they don't deserve a culture of inclusiveness and safety in which they aren't harassed for their sexuality, sex, gender, or saying they should just conform to heteronormative social standards to "make life easier" for "normal" LGBT people.

I'm not arguing that either. I'm arguing they should stop implying it's all of us to make life easier for the rest of us who aren't involved. It costs them literally nothing to do so.

[The Steel Magnolia]

so basically what you're saying is there's no such thing as culture.

Not at all. I'm saying that it should be labelled appropriately, and in a manner that doesn't contribute to misunderstandings.

No culture includes all the people in it. Like you said, emo culture doesn't include all emos. Punk culture doesn't include all punks.

So you can't really call it emo culture or punk culture then can you?

[The Steel Magnolia]

So you find a personality type annoying, big deal? At least you aren't sitting here implying they don't deserve a culture of inclusiveness and safety in which they aren't harassed for their sexuality, sex, gender, or saying they should just conform to heteronormative social standards to "make life easier" for "normal" LGBT people.

I'm not arguing that either. I'm arguing they should stop implying it's all of us to make life easier for the rest of us who aren't involved. It costs them literally nothing to do so.

No one is.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

So you find a personality type annoying, big deal? At least you aren't sitting here implying they don't deserve a culture of inclusiveness and safety in which they aren't harassed for their sexuality, sex, gender, or saying they should just conform to heteronormative social standards to "make life easier" for "normal" LGBT people.

I'm not arguing that either. I'm arguing they should stop implying it's all of us.

No one except ignorant homo-and transphobic people are implying that.

[Des-Bal]

There were never such thing as emos. There is emo music, media promoting wannabe bands as emo, scene kids being poseurs, and scene kids who educate themselves enough to know what emo music truly is. But most often the people who like true emo bands the most aren't scene kids.

You're either trying to make a subtle point or obsessing over trite minutiae and I'm favoring the latter.

[Ostroeuropa]

Not at all. I'm saying that it should be labelled appropriately, and in a manner that doesn't contribute to misunderstandings.

No culture includes all the people in it. Like you said, emo culture doesn't include all emos. Punk culture doesn't include all punks.

So you can't really call it emo culture or punk culture then can you?

It ... actually does.
How can someone be Emo, but not in Emo culture?
same for punks.

[The Parkus Empire]

And you don't like displaying public affection with a girlfriend, either? This is peculiar.


That's understandable--perfectly understandable. But don't fault those who have to the courage to be utterly and "inexcusably" gay for the world to see. Don't tell them to "tone it down" because you're scared of bigots.

I don't like public affection with a girlfriend either really.
It's complicated. I have issues that i'm aware of. I wouldn't really consider myself a decent person to ask this line of questioning to, to be honest.
They can do it all they like. that's fine. But why do they insist on saying it's gay culture to do so?

It comes from saying "fuck you" to oppression. You didn't grow up when being gay or bi meant being arrested, when it took tremendous guts to do it, even more than it does now. You see it as being obnoxious, when in fact it's a celebration of one's sexuality and the heroes of the movement. People are out there, risking their lives (as you say) to make gays recognized, and you poo-poo them as making you look bad. If it weren't for this culture that you hate being associated with so much, you'd probably still be classified as a criminal for being bisexual.

[Ostroeuropa]

I'm not arguing that either. I'm arguing they should stop implying it's all of us.

No one except ignorant homo-and transphobic people are implying that.

No, they're taking the implication and running with it.
It's you guys calling it gay pride and stuff.
or gay culture.

[Elwher]

Is there even such a thing as THE 'gay culture'? It would seem to me that there is just as wide a range in the gay community as in the straight, and you don't hear anyone talking about the 'straight culture'.

[Des-Bal]

It comes from saying "fuck you" to oppression. You didn't grow up when being gay or bi meant being arrested, when it took tremendous guts to do it, even more than it does now. You see it as being obnoxious, when in fact it's a celebration of one's sexuality and the heroes of the movement. People are out there, risking their lives (as you say) to make gays recognized, and you poo-poo them as making you look bad. If it weren't for this culture that you hate being associated with so much, you'd probably still be classified as a criminal for being bisexual.

If someone does you a favor are they entitled to piss on your shoes? No. Obnoxious behavior is obnoxious.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

No one except ignorant homo-and transphobic people are implying that.

No, they're taking the implication and running with it.
It's you guys calling it gay pride and stuff.
or gay culture.

*big sigh*
Try again.

[The Parkus Empire]

It comes from saying "fuck you" to oppression. You didn't grow up when being gay or bi meant being arrested, when it took tremendous guts to do it, even more than it does now. You see it as being obnoxious, when in fact it's a celebration of one's sexuality and the heroes of the movement. People are out there, risking their lives (as you say) to make gays recognized, and you poo-poo them as making you look bad. If it weren't for this culture that you hate being associated with so much, you'd probably still be classified as a criminal for being bisexual.

If someone does you a favor are they entitled to piss on your shoes? No. Obnoxious behavior is obnoxious.

It's that "obnoxious behavior" (I'm sorry you're forced at gunpoint to attend parades) that is the favor.

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

There were never such thing as emos. There is emo music, media promoting wannabe bands as emo, scene kids being poseurs, and scene kids who educate themselves enough to know what emo music truly is. But most often the people who like true emo bands the most aren't scene kids.

You're either trying to make a subtle point or obsessing over trite minutiae and I'm favoring the latter.

I'm Brazilian. Emo in Brazil was huge, really huge. I know what I'm talking about.

Just read the Wikipedia article if you doubt. Scene kid bands are very distant from what was emo in the 1990s.

Anyway, the scene kids were useful at promoting freedom for your own sexual experimentation and expression as much as you like it, and I thankful for them to have accepted my sexual orientation fully within less than 3 months.

[Greater Beggnig]

I'm a homosexual, and I'm proud of it. My friends and family know it.

What bothers me is 'gayness'. Gay is a word that straight bigots conjured up that's now entered the mainstream. But I'd like to talk more specifically about 'gay culture': the incredibly offensive stereotype that associates men like me with the effeminate, pink-loving, women's underwear-donning attention seekers that are ruining the LGBT movement and turning away moderates!

In most TV shows and movies, 'gays' aren't shown as normal human beings, but as ridiculously flamboyant weaklings who are either obsessed with fashion or hair. This shallow interpretation of what homosexuals are like is incredibly offensive and bigoted! I can't help but facepalm whenever I see some fool say something like 'Gay marriage in Costa Rica? FABULOUS!'

I consider myself a normal homosexual who acts like anyone else. I'm not effeminate. I go to the gym and work out. I care little about my appearance. I don't say 'oh my god you look FABULOUS darling!' and similar dialect all the time. And my boyfriend isn't like that either, who shares a similar view on the culture that is in reality a total mockery of homosexuals.

Discuss, NationStates. What do you think of what I've said?

I don't support the movement, and I've never met any gays.

There's your problem. Once you realise that they are people, you might accept them.

[Des-Bal]

It's that "obnoxious behavior" (I'm sorry you're forced at gunpoint to attend parades) that is the favor.

Then the shoe pissing is occurring at the same time as the favor. There are plenty of ways to fight for equality, associating the group your fighting for with stereotypes is not one of the better ones.

[Forsakia]

I accept that that is in fact an answer to my question, and I can only apologize for having phrased it as Why.
You've given the why as in "how did it happen?" not a why as in "Can it be justified?".
If a culture does not define gay people, does not include all of them, then how can it be justifiably called gay culture. Conversely, look at Emo culture.
All emos are, definitively, part of emo culture. All emos are included in emo culture.
All punks are punks.
etc.

so basically what you're saying is there's no such thing as culture.

TSM, I believe what Ostroeuropa is saying is if you're going to refer to a particular sub-culture you shouldn't use a word that refers to a wider demographic group because it implies "all these are this". Not least because doing so reinforces particular stereotype, but also it by implication excludes those who don't belong to that sub-culture and suggests they are somehow less gay or acting straight etc.

African-american culture encompasses all african-americans, and it is offensive to suggest that because of their behaviour they are not part of said culture. See Rob Parker's firing from espn over comments about Robert Griffin III. Likewise for gay people, however they behave they are gay people and part of gay culture.

There is of course also hip-hop culture that many black people are part of (among various others) and analogous cultures that gay people are part of (priders or whatever you like to call it).

But I rather strongly disagree with you telling gay people that because of the way they act they are not part of "gay culture".

(If he isn't saying this then I don't agree with him but agree with what I'm saying here).

[Poopookakapeepeeshire]

I accept that that is in fact an answer to my question, and I can only apologize for having phrased it as Why.
You've given the why as in "how did it happen?" not a why as in "Can it be justified?".
If a culture does not define gay people, does not include all of them, then how can it be justifiably called gay culture. Conversely, look at Emo culture.
All emos are, definitively, part of emo culture. All emos are included in emo culture.
All punks are punks.
etc.

There were never such thing as emos. There is emo music, media promoting wannabe bands as emo, scene kids being poseurs, and scene kids who educate themselves enough to know what emo music truly is. But most often the people who like true emo bands the most aren't scene kids.

actually emos are real there just not what many think they are emo is actually short for emotional which typically refers to a person that been tormented abused and believe there life sucks the style just came from how they dress and how they dress is supposed to reflect how they feel much like anyone else does people just took it from them and abused it and from that other people thought it was just a style for example scenes look and are idiots for taking something sad and making it worse theres nothing fun about being emo many dont even choose that they just end up like that

[Des-Bal]

I'm Brazilian. Emo in Brazil was huge, really huge. I know what I'm talking about.

Just read the Wikipedia article if you doubt. Scene kid bands are very distant from what was emo in the 1990s.

Anyway, the scene kids were useful at promoting freedom for your own sexual experimentation and expression as much as you like it, and I thankful for them to have accepted my sexual orientation fully within less than 3 months.

So I was right, you're obsessing over minutiae. Emos were an example not relevant in any way to the discussion.

[The Steel Magnolia]

No culture includes all the people in it. Like you said, emo culture doesn't include all emos. Punk culture doesn't include all punks.

So you can't really call it emo culture or punk culture then can you?

It ... actually does.
How can someone be Emo, but not in Emo culture?
same for punks.

Quite easily. They wear the clothing, don't hold the attitudes.

[Aequalitia]

Is there even such a thing as THE 'gay culture'? It would seem to me that there is just as wide a range in the gay community as in the straight, and you don't hear anyone talking about the 'straight culture'.

Well, I become tired people clam there is something like a 'gay culture'. I never serious seen any good hard proofs that there is a culture based on sexuality. But this topic goes now not really more about the 'culture', but more about other things in the group of sexuality.

Sadly that we need still topics like this to discussing about sexuality, and not just accept people by just who there are.

[Des-Bal]

Quite easily. They wear the clothing, don't hold the attitudes.

So gay culture has nothing to do with actually being gay.

[Ostroeuropa]

It ... actually does.
How can someone be Emo, but not in Emo culture?
same for punks.

Quite easily. They wear the clothing, don't hold the attitudes.

The attitude isn't relevant to the culture. If you're an emo, you're part of emo culture.

[The Steel Magnolia]

so basically what you're saying is there's no such thing as culture.

TSM, I believe what Ostroeuropa is saying is if you're going to refer to a particular sub-culture you shouldn't use a word that refers to a wider demographic group because it implies "all these are this". Not least because doing so reinforces particular stereotype, but also it by implication excludes those who don't belong to that sub-culture and suggests they are somehow less gay or acting straight etc.

African-american culture encompasses all african-americans, and it is offensive to suggest that because of their behaviour they are not part of said culture. See Rob Parker's firing from espn over comments about Robert Griffin III. Likewise for gay people, however they behave they are gay people and part of gay culture.

There is of course also hip-hop culture that many black people are part of (among various others) and analogous cultures that gay people are part of (priders or whatever you like to call it).

But I rather strongly disagree with you telling gay people that because of the way they act they are not part of "gay culture".

(If he isn't saying this then I don't agree with him but agree with what I'm saying here).

Oh I know precisely what he means. He's still wrong.

He doesn't want to be a part of gay culture. I see no reason to force him to be part of it, that's the only reason I'm saying he's not.

I just don't want him to force me to not be part of my culture either.

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

I have developed a kind of allergy due to this emo issue.

The boy I was in love in 2007 and early 2008 was one of those scene kids saying they are emo, so I put a lot of effort in my research to end with the ignorance of those saying shit about him or the fact that we were close.

It took me long to not react badly over blatant ignorance over the issue, about only in 2012.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Quite easily. They wear the clothing, don't hold the attitudes.

So gay culture has nothing to do with actually being gay.

How you got that from my post is beyond me.

The point I was making, both of you, is that no subculture represents everyone who could be part of that subculture if they so desired.