Escaping the 'Gay Culture'

[The Steel Magnolia]

I think that you're making a distinction is interesting.

I don't. That's exactly what steel magnolia wants, for people to be thought of as GAY people rather than just PEOPLE.

No. I want for people to have the ability to be thought of as GAY people rather than just people.

Because until heteronormativity and patriarchy are eradicated, PEOPLE means white and straight and cis.

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

Ostroeuropa, how old are you?

Seriously, I am curious. You can answer in the telegram, and I assure you I'm probably one of the least ageist people here.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Because by now, it is. That's been the case for centuries. The problem is when folks see it as the entirety of gay culture, but I don't think that any flamboyant gay people are trying to say that, anyway. The way to address this may not be to say "That's not gay culture!", but, rather, to say "Yes, that's gay culture, but it's simply not part of it that I identify with."

Can you explain to me why it's gay culture, and not just a subculture that contains gay people.

Because the term "Gay culture" is a social construct that's been built around it, and is generally accepted as such by the populace, both gay and straight. Much like African-American culture doesn't necessarily appeal to all black people, Gay Culture is not going to appeal to all gay people. But that doesn't change the fact that it's called that by gays and straights, that it's seen as that by the populace at large, or that it's likely to continue to be defined as such for the foreseeable future.

Seriously, Clarence Thomas isn't represented by African-American culture, but that doesn't mean that African-American culture lacks value for not including him. Similarly, not all gay people are represented by Gay culture, but that doesn't make it Gay culture any less.

[Ostroeuropa]

I don't. That's exactly what steel magnolia wants, for people to be thought of as GAY people rather than just PEOPLE.

No. I want for people to have the ability to be thought of as GAY people rather than just people.

Because until heteronormativity and patriarchy are eradicated, PEOPLE means white and straight and cis.

That's partially because anyone who isn't white straight and cis and insists they are just a person and not a GAY person gets drowned out by all of you.

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

No. I want for people to have the ability to be thought of as GAY people rather than just people.

Because until heteronormativity and patriarchy are eradicated, PEOPLE means white and straight and cis.

That's partially because anyone who isn't white straight and cis and insists they are just a person and not a GAY person gets drowned out by all of you.

PUTA QUE PARIU, CARALHO A QUATRO.

I didn't read that.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

As a straight man, perhaps I don't get it, but I'm not exactly sure why it's up to gay people to tone things down in case the hetero folk feel uncomfortable. I don't especially mind (and I've learned to deeply appreciate certain aspects of queer culture from my own perspective), and frankly, attempts to make everyone assimilate seem from this outsider's perspective just as fruitless as attempts to make everyone dress in drag would be. This culture and method of personal expression has developed in the face of oppression over the course of centuries. It's symbolized and signaled safety and acceptance to the oppressed and the marginalized. It's even been the source of entire code languages.

And now some gay people want to escape it because it makes them feel less "normal"? Fine. That's your business. It's going to be far easier for you to assimilate into heteronormative culture in the West than at any time in modern history, so have at it. But don't put down those who still find joy in the society that was built by those who came before, and only grew stronger in the face of police raids, gay-bashing, mockery, discrimination in employment and housing, and neared extinction in the face of neglect by the government once HIV hit. It's a wonderful, radiant, and--if you'll forgive the term--fabulous culture, and I celebrate those who celebrate it.

On the one hand this, while also opposing stereotypes of gay people, and reinforcing those stereotypes by referring to "acting straight" which is offensive in itself.

But this thread is mostly people talking past each other.

I don't believe that I used the term "acting straight", which appears to me to be just as silly as the term "acting white". Or was that more of a general statement?

[Asuiop]

One thing I have noticed is that homosexual men tend to have higher voices, and tend to be on Bravo or E! TV.

[Ostroeuropa]

Can you explain to me why it's gay culture, and not just a subculture that contains gay people.

Because the term "Gay culture" is a social construct that's been built around it, and is generally accepted as such by the populace, both gay and straight. Much like African-American culture doesn't necessarily appeal to all black people, Gay Culture is not going to appeal to all gay people. But that doesn't change the fact that it's called that by gays and straights, that it's seen as that by the populace at large, or that it's likely to continue to be defined as such for the foreseeable future.

Seriously, Clarence Thomas isn't represented by African-American culture, but that doesn't mean that African-American culture lacks value for not including him. Similarly, not all gay people are represented by Gay culture, but that doesn't make it Gay culture any less.

I accept that that is in fact an answer to my question, and I can only apologize for having phrased it as Why.
You've given the why as in "how did it happen?" not a why as in "Can it be justified?".
If a culture does not define gay people, does not include all of them, then how can it be justifiably called gay culture. Conversely, look at Emo culture.
All emos are, definitively, part of emo culture. All emos are included in emo culture.
All punks are punks.
etc.

[Poopookakapeepeeshire]

I wouldn't care if you did.
I'd only care if you turned around and said it was something you and I have in common.

*HEAVY SIGH*
If someone claims that, omg ur queer/gay/lesbian/bi so omg u must b lyke da ppl in pride parAIDS,
then you clearly need to just tell them they are an ignorant fuck and not talk to them.
Because NO ONE IN THE LGBT MOVEMENT IS CLAIMING EVERY LGBT PERSON IS LIKE THE FLAMBOYANT ONES. So stop getting fucking mad at the LGBT movement for establishing a safety zone and culture of acceptance!

i agree although ive found some of the more flamboyant ones to be annoying im sure there nice people but i dont think its necessary to act like that it does seem to discredit the other gays much like hoodlums discredit blacks

[Vazdania]

If you want to escape Gay Culture move to Texas or Idaho.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

One thing I have noticed is that homosexual men tend to have higher voices, and tend to be on Bravo or E! TV.

Yes. All gay men on Earth are on Bravo and E!. That's exactly how this works.

[Asuiop]

One thing I have noticed is that homosexual men tend to have higher voices, and tend to be on Bravo or E! TV.

Yes. All gay men on Earth are on Bravo and E!. That's exactly how this works.

Of course it is, now go and play with your friends.

[The Parkus Empire]

One thing I have noticed is that homosexual men tend to have higher voices, and tend to be on Bravo or E! TV.

So..your understanding of gay people and culture comes from TV?

[The Steel Magnolia]

Because the term "Gay culture" is a social construct that's been built around it, and is generally accepted as such by the populace, both gay and straight. Much like African-American culture doesn't necessarily appeal to all black people, Gay Culture is not going to appeal to all gay people. But that doesn't change the fact that it's called that by gays and straights, that it's seen as that by the populace at large, or that it's likely to continue to be defined as such for the foreseeable future.

Seriously, Clarence Thomas isn't represented by African-American culture, but that doesn't mean that African-American culture lacks value for not including him. Similarly, not all gay people are represented by Gay culture, but that doesn't make it Gay culture any less.

I accept that that is in fact an answer to my question, and I can only apologize for having phrased it as Why.
You've given the why as in "how did it happen?" not a why as in "Can it be justified?".
If a culture does not define gay people, does not include all of them, then how can it be justifiably called gay culture. Conversely, look at Emo culture.
All emos are, definitively, part of emo culture. All emos are included in emo culture.
All punks are punks.
etc.

so basically what you're saying is there's no such thing as culture.

[Des-Bal]

She wants being gay and expressing it, not to be thought of as abnormal. Expressing gayness as an aspect of oneself is not any worse than expressing any other aspect, even if folks like you want to make it shameful.

People express themselves all the time, they still want to be thought of as PEOPLE.

[Forsakia]

On the one hand this, while also opposing stereotypes of gay people, and reinforcing those stereotypes by referring to "acting straight" which is offensive in itself.

But this thread is mostly people talking past each other.

I don't believe that I used the term "acting straight", which appears to me to be just as silly as the term "acting white". Or was that more of a general statement?

That was general rather than aimed at anyone in particular.

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

One thing I have noticed is that homosexual men tend to have higher voices, and tend to be on Bravo or E! TV.

My mother says only recently my voice started to sound like that of a male 13-year-old. And I'm 18.

When I was 16 it was higher, what is weird... I wonder if my voice sounded like 16, people rather would rate me even older than 28. O_O

[Ostroeuropa]

I accept that that is in fact an answer to my question, and I can only apologize for having phrased it as Why.
You've given the why as in "how did it happen?" not a why as in "Can it be justified?".
If a culture does not define gay people, does not include all of them, then how can it be justifiably called gay culture. Conversely, look at Emo culture.
All emos are, definitively, part of emo culture. All emos are included in emo culture.
All punks are punks.
etc.

so basically what you're saying is there's no such thing as culture.

Not at all. I'm saying that it should be labelled appropriately, and in a manner that doesn't contribute to misunderstandings.

[Des-Bal]

No. I want for people to have the ability to be thought of as GAY people rather than just people.

Because until heteronormativity and patriarchy are eradicated, PEOPLE means white and straight and cis.

No, no it doesn't.

[LiamHerndon]

One thing I have noticed is that homosexual men tend to have higher voices, and tend to be on Bravo or E! TV.

You've got to be kidding me. Are you really that ignorant about homosexuals?

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

*HEAVY SIGH*
If someone claims that, omg ur queer/gay/lesbian/bi so omg u must b lyke da ppl in pride parAIDS,
then you clearly need to just tell them they are an ignorant fuck and not talk to them.
Because NO ONE IN THE LGBT MOVEMENT IS CLAIMING EVERY LGBT PERSON IS LIKE THE FLAMBOYANT ONES. So stop getting fucking mad at the LGBT movement for establishing a safety zone and culture of acceptance!

i agree although ive found some of the more flamboyant ones to be annoying im sure there nice people but i dont think its necessary to act like that it does seem to discredit the other gays much like hoodlums discredit blacks

So you find a personality type annoying, big deal? At least you aren't sitting here implying they don't deserve a culture of inclusiveness and safety in which they aren't harassed for their sexuality, sex, gender, or saying they should just conform to heteronormative social standards to "make life easier" for "normal" LGBT people.

[Asuiop]

One thing I have noticed is that homosexual men tend to have higher voices, and tend to be on Bravo or E! TV.

So..your understanding of gay people and culture comes from TV?

No, there's just a large amount of gays in Bravo and E!
Maybe they have a gay-beacon
Or gay hormone spray.

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

Because the term "Gay culture" is a social construct that's been built around it, and is generally accepted as such by the populace, both gay and straight. Much like African-American culture doesn't necessarily appeal to all black people, Gay Culture is not going to appeal to all gay people. But that doesn't change the fact that it's called that by gays and straights, that it's seen as that by the populace at large, or that it's likely to continue to be defined as such for the foreseeable future.

Seriously, Clarence Thomas isn't represented by African-American culture, but that doesn't mean that African-American culture lacks value for not including him. Similarly, not all gay people are represented by Gay culture, but that doesn't make it Gay culture any less.

I accept that that is in fact an answer to my question, and I can only apologize for having phrased it as Why.
You've given the why as in "how did it happen?" not a why as in "Can it be justified?".
If a culture does not define gay people, does not include all of them, then how can it be justifiably called gay culture. Conversely, look at Emo culture.
All emos are, definitively, part of emo culture. All emos are included in emo culture.
All punks are punks.
etc.

There were never such thing as emos. There is emo music, media promoting wannabe bands as emo, scene kids being poseurs, and scene kids who educate themselves enough to know what emo music truly is. But most often the people who like true emo bands the most aren't scene kids.

[Vazdania]

One thing I have noticed is that homosexual men tend to have higher voices, and tend to be on Bravo or E! TV.

Yes. All gay men on Earth are on Bravo and E!. That's exactly how this works.

They did say tend

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

No. I want for people to have the ability to be thought of as GAY people rather than just people.

Because until heteronormativity and patriarchy are eradicated, PEOPLE means white and straight and cis.

No, no it doesn't.

Yes it does.