Escaping the 'Gay Culture'

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

Yes, how dare out-and-proud queer people show their unrelenting resolve to establish an identity or culture for themselves at the cost of the feelings of heteronormative bigots and transphobic morons! And how dare they not be entirely inclusive of every. single. gay. or. queer. person! And how dare they try to consider themselves normal people, when clearly they are an alien species who deserve no claim to an idea of queer culture! Good golly gosh, I am so sorry for your struggles, being a real person who doesn't fit into the stereotypes!
Only ignorant fucks think all gay men are effeminate transvestites and all lesbians are butch and have an extensive collections of strapons.
And what you are saying is actually quite homophobic, particularly the part where you mention how normal you are and how terribly, awfully, tragically unnormal all those stereotypical queer people are.
So they've created an identity they enjoy and can feel proud about, so what? With all that happens with the lives of the LGBT* community, they fucking need that culture. Maybe you fucking don't, but many, many of them feel comfort and safety by being part of that culture and you are demonizing them for having pride in their own personal identity and complaining that they aren't like you.
I don't fit into that fucking category. I'm a queer probably-cissexual woman who dresses and acts like a "normal" straight cissexual woman, and to top it off I'm Muslim and unabashed. I'm not a "bull dyke" and I don't dress in men's clothes or eat out a lot of women, but I still take pride in Gay Pride because it empowers me and creates an area of comfort where I can express "not normal" thoughts and feelings about my sexuality or gender and feel safe. The only issue I take with Gay Pride is that many of them that I have met are Islamophobic and don't want anything to do with me if I wear a headscarf or mention that I am a believer of Allah swt, despite my readily available reasoning for supporting the LGBT* movement, not to fucking mention that I am queer myself. But still, Gay Pride is something to be fucking proud of.

For reference, there was a big muslim part of the pride march in toronto this year, which was awesome.

Also ostro! listen to TS, listen to yum, listen to people much smarter and older than me who can phrase things better than i ever can!

Fucking answer them.

Need to move to Canada... Is Canada big on nuclear power and research? Because that's the field I'm going into.

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

Pffffff you can't change the world the way it is. What silly idea.

I discussed it with Steel Magnolia before.

And yes, there is a cultural division between queer and straight. Straight is not synonymous with heterosexuality (though Steel Magnolia says that heterosexuality can't be queer), and queer is not synonymous with non-heterosexuality.

If you want, read the thread:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=252413

You never did reply to my latest posts there.

also as a clarification, i don't believe cis heterosexaulity is queer. straight trans folk are still queer.

There is a guy that replied to me in the same time and is waiting response for more than a week.

I am too lazy to answer all your points now. You are too smart. D:

[Ostroeuropa]

Then do it on your own terms. Don't use us as human shields for fucks sake.
Stop calling it gay pride.
Don't throw another group into the crossfire along with you to end societies oppression of your subculture.

But it is a part of gay pride. My thinking--and forgive me if I'm mistaken--was that gay pride was about expressing and taking pride in who you are as a gay person (or lesbian, or bisexual, or transgender, or questioning, or whatever else has been added to that by now). If this means dressing up like Lady Gaga, then dress up like Lady Gaga. If it means wearing tight leather, then wear tight leather. And if it means dressing in Dockers and a button-up shirt from Sears, then dress in Dockers and a button-up shirt from Sears.

I've been to Pride Parades, and yes, I've seen the go-go boys, the drag queens, and the shaved muscle men dressed in bikini bottoms. I've also seen openly gay City Council members dressed in business casual, the Gay Men's Chorus dressed in suits and ties, and various religious leaders dressed in collars, robes, or whatever else was called for. The people who act flamboyant have never come across to me as saying "How I'm acting is Gay Pride". Rather, it comes across to me as "Because of Gay Pride, I can act this way without shame". Now, not everyone is going to be comfortable with that, but I'm not aware of any oppressed group in history that got ahead by kowtowing to the bigots.

I'm not saying kowtow to them. Quite the opposite. I'd advocate that we simply up and married people and waited for them to come arrest us in our sunday best.
I'd advocate openly that the registry offices, if they have someone sympathetic to the cause, forge paperwork if necessary to get it done, or clog the system with thousands of improperly filled out paperwork.
Call for massive, peaceful, and respectful non-cooperation on the gay marriage laws that exist.
Thats just one issue, but it was one where we could have really broken the back of the anti-gays.

[The Steel Magnolia]

But it is a part of gay pride. My thinking--and forgive me if I'm mistaken--was that gay pride was about expressing and taking pride in who you are as a gay person (or lesbian, or bisexual, or transgender, or questioning, or whatever else has been added to that by now). If this means dressing up like Lady Gaga, then dress up like Lady Gaga. If it means wearing tight leather, then wear tight leather. And if it means dressing in Dockers and a button-up shirt from Sears, then dress in Dockers and a button-up shirt from Sears.

I've been to Pride Parades, and yes, I've seen the go-go boys, the drag queens, and the shaved muscle men dressed in bikini bottoms. I've also seen openly gay City Council members dressed in business casual, the Gay Men's Chorus dressed in suits and ties, and various religious leaders dressed in collars, robes, or whatever else was called for. The people who act flamboyant have never come across to me as saying "How I'm acting is Gay Pride". Rather, it comes across to me as "Because of Gay Pride, I can act this way without shame". Now, not everyone is going to be comfortable with that, but I'm not aware of any oppressed group in history that got ahead by kowtowing to the bigots.

I'm not saying kowtow to them. Quite the opposite. I'd advocate that we simply up and married people and waited for them to come arrest us in our sunday best.
I'd advocate openly that the registry offices, if they have someone sympathetic to the cause, forge paperwork if necessary to get it done, or clog the system with thousands of improperly filled out paperwork.
Call for massive, peaceful, and respectful non-cooperation on the gay marriage laws that exist.

then do that.

but i'll be damned if i stand by and wait for them to come for me in the night without fighting back.

[Poopookakapeepeeshire]

that and one of their leaders is a lesbian

[The Steel Magnolia]

For reference, there was a big muslim part of the pride march in toronto this year, which was awesome.

Also ostro! listen to TS, listen to yum, listen to people much smarter and older than me who can phrase things better than i ever can!

Fucking answer them.

Need to move to Canada... Is Canada big on nuclear power and research? Because that's the field I'm going into.

IIRC, i think we're one of the top five exporters of nuclear isotopes in the world, chalk river etc.

There's that annoying anti-nuclear movement still present here but it's not too bad.

There was also this woman who was holding up signs saying islam is a religion of evil, support israel, blah blah blah but everyone went awkwardly silent around her.

There was also a big jewish presence in the parade, which annoyingly was mixed with the pro-israel people (I make a conscious effort to stay out of that mess), but it's very islam friendly.

[Ostroeuropa]

I'm not saying kowtow to them. Quite the opposite. I'd advocate that we simply up and married people and waited for them to come arrest us in our sunday best.
I'd advocate openly that the registry offices, if they have someone sympathetic to the cause, forge paperwork if necessary to get it done, or clog the system with thousands of improperly filled out paperwork.
Call for massive, peaceful, and respectful non-cooperation on the gay marriage laws that exist.

then do that.

but i'll be damned if i stand by and wait for them to come for me in the night without fighting back.

And then what gets on the news?
Violent gay riot after they broke marriage laws.
Good job. Made the whole thing pointless.
It's incredibly hard to demonize someone who is acting exactly like you are, but just happens to have one thing about them thats different.

[The Parkus Empire]

I'm not ashamed.
I just don't give a fuck.
And because I don't give a fuck, I don't want a bunch of people marching around making it a massive deal and meaning i'm statistically more likely to get fucking shot or something.
I'm perfectly happy being a bisexual in mainstream culture.

If you think people knowing you are a bisexual puts you at risk of getting shot, then it's extremely bizarre that you're perfectly happy with that. Are you afraid to go around in public with your boyfriend?

What about publicly displaying affection with him?

[Ostroeuropa]

If you think people knowing you are a bisexual puts you at risk of getting shot, then it's extremely bizarre that you're perfectly happy with that. Are you afraid to go around in public with your boyfriend?

What about publicly displaying affection with him?

Not big on it myself, but don't care if others do.

[The Steel Magnolia]

then do that.

but i'll be damned if i stand by and wait for them to come for me in the night without fighting back.

And then what gets on the news?
Violent gay riot after they broke marriage laws.
Good job. Made the whole thing pointless.
It's incredibly hard to demonize someone who is acting exactly like you are, but just happens to have one thing about them thats different.

I don't believe that for a second.

MLK would never have been successful without Malcolm X.

[The Parkus Empire]

What about publicly displaying affection with him?

Not big on it myself, but don't care if others do.

I'm asking if you're scared to.

[Ostroeuropa]

Not big on it myself, but don't care if others do.

I'm asking if you're scared to.

Not in my town.
In the city, yes. Probably.

[LiamHerndon]

Gay culture is different than gay stereotyping. Parts of your complaints appear to be the culture that some homosexuals partake in, which shouldn't be a problem. After all, shouldn't they have a right to identity? I agree with you, though, on the stereotypes, themselves.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

But it is a part of gay pride. My thinking--and forgive me if I'm mistaken--was that gay pride was about expressing and taking pride in who you are as a gay person (or lesbian, or bisexual, or transgender, or questioning, or whatever else has been added to that by now). If this means dressing up like Lady Gaga, then dress up like Lady Gaga. If it means wearing tight leather, then wear tight leather. And if it means dressing in Dockers and a button-up shirt from Sears, then dress in Dockers and a button-up shirt from Sears.

I've been to Pride Parades, and yes, I've seen the go-go boys, the drag queens, and the shaved muscle men dressed in bikini bottoms. I've also seen openly gay City Council members dressed in business casual, the Gay Men's Chorus dressed in suits and ties, and various religious leaders dressed in collars, robes, or whatever else was called for. The people who act flamboyant have never come across to me as saying "How I'm acting is Gay Pride". Rather, it comes across to me as "Because of Gay Pride, I can act this way without shame". Now, not everyone is going to be comfortable with that, but I'm not aware of any oppressed group in history that got ahead by kowtowing to the bigots.

I'm not saying kowtow to them. Quite the opposite. I'd advocate that we simply up and married people and waited for them to come arrest us in our sunday best.
I'd advocate openly that the registry offices, if they have someone sympathetic to the cause, forge paperwork if necessary to get it done, or clog the system with thousands of improperly filled out paperwork.
Call for massive, peaceful, and respectful non-cooperation on the gay marriage laws that exist.
Thats just one issue, but it was one where we could have really broken the back of the anti-gays.

And you can do all of that without alienating those who find joy in more flamboyant methods of expression, or denigrating their very real contributions through the centuries.

This is the exact same argument that African-Americans have been having since the end of slavery, an argument that peaked in the 60s and 70s, though it continues to this day. But most African-Americans nowadays seem to have found a balance between the two extremes. Hell, President Obama hangs out with Jay-Z. It takes Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. It takes Cesar Chavez and La Raza. It takes Harvey Milk and ACT UP. The Gay Community (and what an odd word to use for such a diverse group) is not, from what I can see, an either-or proposition so much as it is an "All Of The Above".

[The Steel Magnolia]

Not big on it myself, but don't care if others do.

I'm asking if you're scared to.

I honestly think Ostro just wants all of us to blend in. to keep our gayness to the bedroom. to not challenge popular society at all in any way shape or form in our actions.

[Blekksprutia]

that and one of their leaders is a lesbian

Your name is real mature. Real mature...

[The Parkus Empire]

And then what gets on the news?
Violent gay riot after they broke marriage laws.
Good job. Made the whole thing pointless.
It's incredibly hard to demonize someone who is acting exactly like you are, but just happens to have one thing about them thats different.

I don't believe that for a second.

MLK would never have been successful without Malcolm X.

This a hundred times. It's hard to imagine gay rights being where they are now without the Stonewall Riots.

[Des-Bal]

I honestly think Ostro just wants all of us to blend in. to keep our gayness to the bedroom. to not challenge popular society at all in any way shape or form in our actions.

How terrible it is to blend in. To be thought of as a person instead of a gay person.

[Ostroeuropa]

I honestly think Ostro just wants all of us to blend in. to keep our gayness to the bedroom. to not challenge popular society at all in any way shape or form in our actions.

How terrible it is to blend in. To be thought of as a person instead of a gay person.

Pretty much this.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

Need to move to Canada... Is Canada big on nuclear power and research? Because that's the field I'm going into.

IIRC, i think we're one of the top five exporters of nuclear isotopes in the world, chalk river etc.

There's that annoying anti-nuclear movement still present here but it's not too bad.

There was also this woman who was holding up signs saying islam is a religion of evil, support israel, blah blah blah but everyone went awkwardly silent around her.

There was also a big jewish presence in the parade, which annoyingly was mixed with the pro-israel people (I make a conscious effort to stay out of that mess), but it's very islam friendly.

Yessss.
But fuck that woman.
But yesss.

Also, tru storee, my bff is Jewish and Pro-Israel. I'm Muslim and Pro-Palestine. We are still besties because we're civil huuuuummmaaaaaans.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

then do that.

but i'll be damned if i stand by and wait for them to come for me in the night without fighting back.

And then what gets on the news?
Violent gay riot after they broke marriage laws.
Good job. Made the whole thing pointless.
It's incredibly hard to demonize someone who is acting exactly like you are, but just happens to have one thing about them thats different.

Violent gay riots aren't always a bad thing.

[Lengleland]

I really don't give a flying one about your life :-)

[The Parkus Empire]

Not in my town.

And you don't like displaying public affection with a girlfriend, either? This is peculiar.

In the city, yes. Probably.

That's understandable--perfectly understandable. But don't fault those who have to the courage to be utterly and "inexcusably" gay for the world to see. Don't tell them to "tone it down" because you're scared of bigots.

[The Steel Magnolia]

I honestly think Ostro just wants all of us to blend in. to keep our gayness to the bedroom. to not challenge popular society at all in any way shape or form in our actions.

How terrible it is to blend in. To be thought of as a person instead of a gay person.

Yes, it absolutely is.

Because that erases my sexuality.

When heterosexuality is no longer considered the default, then you'll have a point. Not util then.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

I honestly think Ostro just wants all of us to blend in. to keep our gayness to the bedroom. to not challenge popular society at all in any way shape or form in our actions.

How terrible it is to blend in. To be thought of as a person instead of a gay person.

And why the fuck should we bend to heteronormative ideals, especially if that's not who we fucking are?
If YOU want to exist in a heteronormative world, go fucking at it. I don't. I want everyone who feels like it to brutally slaughter every thread of heteronormative society and make a world that is inclusive of everyone regardless of gender, sexuality, expression, or attraction.