Escaping the 'Gay Culture'

[Pope Joan]

Nailed said:
I hold the super-radical position that gay people, like anyone else, can act however the hell they like as long as they're not hurting anyone else, and that they are under absolutely no obligation to present themselves as less "stereotypically gay" in order to coddle homophobes.

Sure. But people are going to award style points anyway. It's how we roll these days/

[The Steel Magnolia]

BULLSHIT.

I refuse to accept that the only way I can achieve equality is by conforming to normative society.

Fuck. That.




In no place in the world do we have equal rights.




Just like if someone hates feminism for having 'fem' in the name, they are not worth convincing at all. They will either come to terms with it by themselves, or not at all.

So I'll wait. I'll live my life, in defiance of the norms of popular society and popular will. In defiance of homophobes, and everyone who thinks I should abandon my culture and my community on their say so.

I have no obligation, whatsoever, to live my life according to those whims.




Fantastic strawman.

The solution, though, is not to suddenly stop being gay, or moreover, to stop suddenly being queer. Sure, if we act just like everyone else maybe a tiny fraction of the violence would be reduced.

but it's not worth the price.




I want to live. I want to survive. i want to exist, and to say to all those homophobes and transphobes "Hi, I'll live my life, how I want. My people will live their lives, how they want. And even if we didn't act 'flamboyant', even if we didn't 'shove it in your faces', you might like us then? fuck it, you're still homophobes if the only reason you hate gays is because we dare to be prideful of our sexuality."

the solution to homophobia is not to go back in the closet.

Then do it on your own terms. Don't use us as human shields for fucks sake.
Stop calling it gay pride.
Don't throw another group into the crossfire along with you to end societies oppression of your subculture.

Too fucking bad.

I don't care if you're ashamed of your sexuality as you so blatantly are. Our culture is for queer people, for gay people, for lesbians for trans folks of all stripes. It's for everyone not hetero and not cis.

If you don't want to be a part of that that's your prerogative, and that's on you and you alone.

[Ostroeuropa]

Then do it on your own terms. Don't use us as human shields for fucks sake.
Stop calling it gay pride.
Don't throw another group into the crossfire along with you to end societies oppression of your subculture.

Too fucking bad.

I don't care if you're ashamed of your sexuality as you so blatantly are. Our culture is for queer people, for gay people, for lesbians for trans folks of all stripes. It's for everyone not hetero and not cis.

If you don't want to be a part of that that's your prerogative, and that's on you and you alone.

I'm not ashamed.
I just don't give a fuck.
And because I don't give a fuck, I don't want a bunch of people marching around making it a massive deal and meaning i'm statistically more likely to get fucking shot or something.
I'm perfectly happy being a bisexual in mainstream culture.

[Faolinn]

Multiple times though not too often. I know several people who are one shout of "flame on" from being the Human Torch's long lost gay children. However I cannot say that most that gay people that I know do. Funny thing though... Every time they get to talking about stuff like this, almost the exact same argument occurs real life that's going on here right now.

As i've mentioned previously, every homosexual and bisexual local whom I know in my town is firmly against the priders.

Huh. Opinions seem tot be more evenly divided around where I live then. Of course I'm not familiar with every last gay/bi/whatever person here so who knows? Both sides seem to have a valid argument in their own ways to me though. The priders argue that the other side is too concerned with what others think and that the experience of gay people in this society is fundamentally different from that of the heterosexual population and that the other is denying this. However, the other side has valid complaints about the damaging nature of stereotypes and how the priders seem to value image in a similar sense to what they accuse them of.

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

Ostroeuropa, stop. Trying. To. Lecture. People.

We do whatever we want. Who are you to judge, some sociologist?

[The Steel Magnolia]

Too fucking bad.

I don't care if you're ashamed of your sexuality as you so blatantly are. Our culture is for queer people, for gay people, for lesbians for trans folks of all stripes. It's for everyone not hetero and not cis.

If you don't want to be a part of that that's your prerogative, and that's on you and you alone.

I'm not ashamed.
I just don't give a fuck.
And because I don't give a fuck, I don't want a bunch of people marching around making it a massive deal and meaning i'm statistically more likely to get fucking shot or something.

If you're not a prider how will the homophobes possibly know.

[Ostroeuropa]

I'm not ashamed.
I just don't give a fuck.
And because I don't give a fuck, I don't want a bunch of people marching around making it a massive deal and meaning i'm statistically more likely to get fucking shot or something.

If you're not a prider how will the homophobes possibly know.

They'll know if i'm a bisexual.
What they'll then think is "he must be a prider." (Though obviously not in those words) and a big reason they think that is that your group goes around claiming to represent gay people.
It doesn't.

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

I'm perfectly happy being a bisexual in mainstream culture.

That is what I meant with you being straight.

Culturally, you are very distant to any queer discourse. I would know.

[Ostroeuropa]

I'm perfectly happy being a bisexual in mainstream culture.

That is what I meant with you being straight.

Culturally, you are very distant to any queer discourse. I would know.

So now we're saying straight and gay are cultural distinctions, not sexual ones?
Precisely the problem.
Cut that shit out. Your sexuality has nothing to do with your culture. I don't like the fact that you, and yes, the homophobes, are marching around telling people that the two things are connected.

[The Steel Magnolia]

As i've mentioned previously, every homosexual and bisexual local whom I know in my town is firmly against the priders.

Huh. Opinions seem tot be more evenly divided around where I live then. Of course I'm not familiar with every last gay/bi/whatever person here so who knows? Both sides seem to have a valid argument in their own ways to me though. The priders argue that the other side is too concerned with what others think and that the experience of gay people in this society is fundamentally different from that of the heterosexual population and that the other is denying this. However, the other side has valid complaints about the damaging nature of stereotypes and how the priders seem to value image in a similar sense to what they accuse them of.

here in toronto, every gay person I know is part of the queer community and proud of it.

See! I can make useless anecdotes too!

The problem comes in when people like Ostro seem to think they have the right to demand we stop having pride in our sexuality.

I don't care if you have a problem with it or not to be perfectly fucking honest.

I'm sure if you wanted to delve into the numbers the amount of people saved from fucking killing themselves is higher than the people murdered because of their sexuality because we dare to have pride in it.

[Ostroeuropa]

Huh. Opinions seem tot be more evenly divided around where I live then. Of course I'm not familiar with every last gay/bi/whatever person here so who knows? Both sides seem to have a valid argument in their own ways to me though. The priders argue that the other side is too concerned with what others think and that the experience of gay people in this society is fundamentally different from that of the heterosexual population and that the other is denying this. However, the other side has valid complaints about the damaging nature of stereotypes and how the priders seem to value image in a similar sense to what they accuse them of.

here in toronto, every gay person I know is part of the queer community and proud of it.

See! I can make useless anecdotes too!

The problem comes in when people like Ostro seem to think they have the right to demand we stop having pride in our sexuality.

I don't care if you have a problem with it or not to be perfectly fucking honest.

I'm sure if you wanted to delve into the numbers the amount of people saved from fucking killing themselves is higher than the people murdered because of their sexuality because we dare to have pride in it.

and that's just fine. knock yourselves out. Be proud of it all you like. Seems stupid to me, but whatever works for you.
Just don't bring us into it, and stop calling it gay culture, since thats bringing us into it.
By calling it gay culture, you're actively FORCING us to participate in some manner with your subculture, it's annoying.

[The Steel Magnolia]

That is what I meant with you being straight.

Culturally, you are very distant to any queer discourse. I would know.

So now we're saying straight and gay are cultural distinctions, not sexual ones?
Precisely the problem.
Cut that shit out. Your sexuality has nothing to do with your culture. I don't like the fact that you, and yes, the homophobes, are marching around telling people that the two things are connected.

Lies and bullshit on top of lies and bullshit.

The very existence gives lie to your words. Even if by some inescapable idiocy you think it shouldn't, sexuality and culture are incredibly intertwined.

[The Parkus Empire]

This is the problem, right here. It's like people who think "acting white" is what's "normal". Anyone who does not behave as an ideal, straight, cisgenedered white, is "abnormal".

I agree completely.
And matters aren't helped, AT ALL by taking people who don't act like that, and saying "This is (Demographic)'s culture."

You're right, it's ancient alien culture.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

Yes, how dare out-and-proud queer people show their unrelenting resolve to establish an identity or culture for themselves at the cost of the feelings of heteronormative bigots and transphobic morons! And how dare they not be entirely inclusive of every. single. gay. or. queer. person! And how dare they try to consider themselves normal people, when clearly they are an alien species who deserve no claim to an idea of queer culture! Good golly gosh, I am so sorry for your struggles, being a real person who doesn't fit into the stereotypes!
Only ignorant fucks think all gay men are effeminate transvestites and all lesbians are butch and have an extensive collections of strapons.
And what you are saying is actually quite homophobic, particularly the part where you mention how normal you are and how terribly, awfully, tragically unnormal all those stereotypical queer people are.
So they've created an identity they enjoy and can feel proud about, so what? With all that happens with the lives of the LGBT* community, they fucking need that culture. Maybe you fucking don't, but many, many of them feel comfort and safety by being part of that culture and you are demonizing them for having pride in their own personal identity and complaining that they aren't like you.
I don't fit into that fucking category. I'm a queer probably-cissexual woman who dresses and acts like a "normal" straight cissexual woman, and to top it off I'm Muslim and unabashed. I'm not a "bull dyke" and I don't dress in men's clothes or eat out a lot of women, but I still take pride in Gay Pride because it empowers me and creates an area of comfort where I can express "not normal" thoughts and feelings about my sexuality or gender and feel safe. The only issue I take with Gay Pride is that many of them that I have met are Islamophobic and don't want anything to do with me if I wear a headscarf or mention that I am a believer of Allah swt, despite my readily available reasoning for supporting the LGBT* movement, not to fucking mention that I am queer myself. But still, Gay Pride is something to be fucking proud of.

[The Steel Magnolia]

If you're not a prider how will the homophobes possibly know.

They'll know if i'm a bisexual.
What they'll then think is "he must be a prider." (Though obviously not in those words) and a big reason they think that is that your group goes around claiming to represent gay people.
It doesn't.

How will they know if you're a bisexual if you're not a 'prider'?

After all, you must be doing something to let them know, and isn't that the same fucking thing you're bitching at us for?

Also tell me again why we should work to appease homophobes?

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Then do it on your own terms. Don't use us as human shields for fucks sake.
Stop calling it gay pride.
Don't throw another group into the crossfire along with you to end societies oppression of your subculture.

But it is a part of gay pride. My thinking--and forgive me if I'm mistaken--was that gay pride was about expressing and taking pride in who you are as a gay person (or lesbian, or bisexual, or transgender, or questioning, or whatever else has been added to that by now). If this means dressing up like Lady Gaga, then dress up like Lady Gaga. If it means wearing tight leather, then wear tight leather. And if it means dressing in Dockers and a button-up shirt from Sears, then dress in Dockers and a button-up shirt from Sears.

I've been to Pride Parades, and yes, I've seen the go-go boys, the drag queens, and the shaved muscle men dressed in bikini bottoms. I've also seen openly gay City Council members dressed in business casual, the Gay Men's Chorus dressed in suits and ties, and various religious leaders dressed in collars, robes, or whatever else was called for. The people who act flamboyant have never come across to me as saying "How I'm acting is Gay Pride". Rather, it comes across to me as "Because of Gay Pride, I can act this way without shame". Now, not everyone is going to be comfortable with that, but I'm not aware of any oppressed group in history that got ahead by kowtowing to the bigots.

[The Parkus Empire]

Too fucking bad.

I don't care if you're ashamed of your sexuality as you so blatantly are. Our culture is for queer people, for gay people, for lesbians for trans folks of all stripes. It's for everyone not hetero and not cis.

If you don't want to be a part of that that's your prerogative, and that's on you and you alone.

I'm not ashamed.
I just don't give a fuck.
And because I don't give a fuck, I don't want a bunch of people marching around making it a massive deal and meaning i'm statistically more likely to get fucking shot or something.
I'm perfectly happy being a bisexual in mainstream culture.

If you think people knowing you are a bisexual puts you at risk of getting shot, then it's extremely bizarre that you're perfectly happy with that. Are you afraid to go around in public with your boyfriend?

[The Steel Magnolia]

Yes, how dare out-and-proud queer people show their unrelenting resolve to establish an identity or culture for themselves at the cost of the feelings of heteronormative bigots and transphobic morons! And how dare they not be entirely inclusive of every. single. gay. or. queer. person! And how dare they try to consider themselves normal people, when clearly they are an alien species who deserve no claim to an idea of queer culture! Good golly gosh, I am so sorry for your struggles, being a real person who doesn't fit into the stereotypes!
Only ignorant fucks think all gay men are effeminate transvestites and all lesbians are butch and have an extensive collections of strapons.
And what you are saying is actually quite homophobic, particularly the part where you mention how normal you are and how terribly, awfully, tragically unnormal all those stereotypical queer people are.
So they've created an identity they enjoy and can feel proud about, so what? With all that happens with the lives of the LGBT* community, they fucking need that culture. Maybe you fucking don't, but many, many of them feel comfort and safety by being part of that culture and you are demonizing them for having pride in their own personal identity and complaining that they aren't like you.
I don't fit into that fucking category. I'm a queer probably-cissexual woman who dresses and acts like a "normal" straight cissexual woman, and to top it off I'm Muslim and unabashed. I'm not a "bull dyke" and I don't dress in men's clothes or eat out a lot of women, but I still take pride in Gay Pride because it empowers me and creates an area of comfort where I can express "not normal" thoughts and feelings about my sexuality or gender and feel safe. The only issue I take with Gay Pride is that many of them that I have met are Islamophobic and don't want anything to do with me if I wear a headscarf or mention that I am a believer of Allah swt, despite my readily available reasoning for supporting the LGBT* movement, not to fucking mention that I am queer myself. But still, Gay Pride is something to be fucking proud of.

For reference, there was a big muslim part of the pride march in toronto this year, which was awesome.

Also ostro! listen to TS, listen to yum, listen to people much smarter and older than me who can phrase things better than i ever can!

Fucking answer them.

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

That is what I meant with you being straight.

Culturally, you are very distant to any queer discourse. I would know.

So now we're saying straight and gay are cultural distinctions, not sexual ones?
Precisely the problem.
Cut that shit out. Your sexuality has nothing to do with your culture. I don't like the fact that you, and yes, the homophobes, are marching around telling people that the two things are connected.

Pffffff you can't change the world the way it is. What silly idea.

I discussed it with Steel Magnolia before.

And yes, there is a cultural division between queer and straight. Straight is not synonymous with heterosexuality (though Steel Magnolia says that heterosexuality can't be queer), and queer is not synonymous with non-heterosexuality.

If you want, read the thread:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=252413

[Ostroeuropa]

They'll know if i'm a bisexual.
What they'll then think is "he must be a prider." (Though obviously not in those words) and a big reason they think that is that your group goes around claiming to represent gay people.
It doesn't.

How will they know if you're a bisexual if you're not a 'prider'?

After all, you must be doing something to let them know, and isn't that the same fucking thing you're bitching at us for?

Also tell me again why we should work to appease homophobes?

Because i'll tell them if it comes up.
It often does, sooner or later. I'm not going to hide it if it comes up naturally. I'm just not going to begin every conversation with a megaphone and HI IM BISEXUAL.

[The Steel Magnolia]

So now we're saying straight and gay are cultural distinctions, not sexual ones?
Precisely the problem.
Cut that shit out. Your sexuality has nothing to do with your culture. I don't like the fact that you, and yes, the homophobes, are marching around telling people that the two things are connected.

Pffffff you can't change the world the way it is. What silly idea.

I discussed it with Steel Magnolia before.

And yes, there is a cultural division between queer and straight. Straight is not synonymous with heterosexuality (though Steel Magnolia says that heterosexuality can't be queer), and queer is not synonymous with non-heterosexuality.

If you want, read the thread:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=252413

You never did reply to my latest posts there.

also as a clarification, i don't believe cis heterosexaulity is queer. straight trans folk are still queer.

[The Steel Magnolia]

How will they know if you're a bisexual if you're not a 'prider'?

After all, you must be doing something to let them know, and isn't that the same fucking thing you're bitching at us for?

Also tell me again why we should work to appease homophobes?

Because i'll tell them if it comes up.
It often does, sooner or later. I'm not going to hide it if it comes up naturally. I'm just not going to begin every conversation with a megaphone and HI IM BISEXUAL.

Funny, neither do I.

That doesn't mean I won't wear a shirt that says "I'm gay and proud!" on it.

Why do you want to take away my right to free expression?

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

and that's just fine. knock yourselves out. Be proud of it all you like. Seems stupid to me, but whatever works for you.
Just don't bring us into it, and stop calling it gay culture, since thats bringing us into it.
By calling it gay culture, you're actively FORCING us to participate in some manner with your subculture, it's annoying.

Gay, lesbian, bi, pan, fluid/curious/flexible, transgender (incl. third gender e.g. travesti, crossdresser, non-binary), transsex, they are all subcultures.

A person may be homosexual but not gay. All gay persons in the sense we purport are non-heterosexual though.

[Faolinn]

Wow. I'm just waiting to arguments related to economics to be brought into this thread of deja vous in which I recall every time any one of my LGBT friends gets into an argument about this sort of thing. Just about every opinion, fact, statistic, theory, and line of innquiry is being thrown into this kitchen sink of social discourse.

[RenoNevada]

Understand that the word "gay" also means happy or joy full so "gay culture" could be interpreted as a happy or perhaps upbeat form of culture. Just another way to look at it, not trying argue.