Escaping the 'Gay Culture'

[Jello Biafra]

In general, if you do not tell the majority of people that you're gay, they will assume otherwise.

So mention you are gay.
Thats fine.

It's not really fine, though. Lots of people will have a problem with it. (For reasons other than flamboyance or over-excitedness.)

[The Steel Magnolia]

Except it's not about queer pride, it's about being queer.

if you don't want to be a part of that, fine. You're not queer, you're just gay.

Can someone be queer and heterosexual cisgendered?

Of course not.

Although I do think MLK's death was a turning point in the Civil Rights Movement, I find it laughable that you think there was a sudden drop-out in the amount of racists. I need evidence.

I don't have evidence for that specific event, but I have for a parallel event:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_March

(Specifically, notes 2 and 3.)

The campaign had a significant effect on changing world and British attitude towards Indian independence

The use of violence on people who are not actually doing anything wrong has the effect of getting the sympathy of the majority.
If society, as a whole, views "gay culture" as wrong, you're winning exactly no arguments by running around and displaying gay culture.
If however, you're acting totally normally, and it becomes obvious that the ONLY reason you are being oppressed is that you are gay, people tend to disapprove.
Have you listened to homophobes and racists actual arguments for why they are homophobes and racists?
It's never "I just hate black people." because they know that shit doesn't fly. Fuck, I doubt even THEY believe that. They come up with a reason, something black people DO or something, to justify their position.

Why should I care what homophobes and racists think?

A victory on their terms is no victory at all.

[The Parkus Empire]

In general, if you do not tell the majority of people that you're gay, they will assume otherwise.

So mention you are gay.
Thats fine.

Pride makes gayness something normal, something common and out in the open, something not to be ashamed of. It helps discount the idea of heterosexual being the default.

[Ostroeuropa]

So mention you are gay.
Thats fine.

Pride makes gayness something normal, something common and out in the open, something not to be ashamed of. It helps discount the idea of heterosexual being the default.

Not so.
It makes people think that gays must be like the priders.
It means that a stereotype is enforced that if you act normally, you must be straight.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Pride makes gayness something normal, something common and out in the open, something not to be ashamed of. It helps discount the idea of heterosexual being the default.

Not so.
It makes people think that gays must be like the priders.
It means that a stereotype is enforced that if you act normally, you must be straight.

sauuuuuuuce.

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

"This fag doesn't represent me!"

In the last days, we talked a lot about Human Rights. It was very easy to curse all them speaking it up on twitter, saying that the boy (Evangelical priest Marco Feliciano elected to President of the Commission for Human Rights and Minorities of the Brazilian government, trying to legalize regulated psychologists pathologizing homosexuality and offering conversion therapy) with designed eyebrows and iron-straightened hair does not represent us, and with this showing how politicized we are. Even too much easy, at the speed of a Facebook like click. But there is another kind of person that, even though is not in any Presidency of Chamber Commission, also provocates screams of protests among gays, who claim to not be represented by them: the sissies.

Part of the series on "GIVING A CLUE (about your true self and identity): Allow yourself. Be free. Be fabulous."

I chose a Serginho Orgastic's photo (a flamboyant gay guy who appeared in the 10th edition of Big Brother Brasil), to illustrate this column. Reason? Whenever I see any news about him, there is an influx of nasty comments, mocking him, referring to him by female pronouns (as if that was something inferior) and always stressing that "he does not represent us" or worse "it is this kind gay that does not get society's respect and impairs our movement". I will not even speak about internalized homophobia, not to get boring ... people with such tone are just damn barefaced shameless!

You TOTALLY are all represented by ONLY that stereotype of white, clean, manly, hunky, short-haired gay using iPhone and Lacost, huh? If nowadays we talk about Gay Rights, it is precisely because of effeminate and marginalized homosexuals, who gave their faces to society slap, to claim pride on something that back in the day would lead you arrested. If nowadays we can "give the clue" of ourselves with Hollister pants, giving goodbye to your coolish friends at "The Week"'s sidewalk, it is because of those [effeminate] gays too, who are still a reason of mockery in humour TV shows, and even worse, inside our own community. What do you guys think while reproducing the sexism that victimizates us? To what place do you believe it will lead us?

*continues*

[Ostroeuropa]

Can someone be queer and heterosexual cisgendered?

Of course not.

I don't have evidence for that specific event, but I have for a parallel event:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_March

(Specifically, notes 2 and 3.)



The use of violence on people who are not actually doing anything wrong has the effect of getting the sympathy of the majority.
If society, as a whole, views "gay culture" as wrong, you're winning exactly no arguments by running around and displaying gay culture.
If however, you're acting totally normally, and it becomes obvious that the ONLY reason you are being oppressed is that you are gay, people tend to disapprove.
Have you listened to homophobes and racists actual arguments for why they are homophobes and racists?
It's never "I just hate black people." because they know that shit doesn't fly. Fuck, I doubt even THEY believe that. They come up with a reason, something black people DO or something, to justify their position.

Why should I care what homophobes and racists think?

A victory on their terms is no victory at all.

There is no victory except on their terms for fucks sake.
In many places you still have equal rights.
What do you keep complaining about?
But theres still homophobes!
Well, no shit.
Because we havn't changed their minds.
What the fuck are you even arguing for if not to change their minds?
Jesus christ.

"Look how many gays are murdered!"
Yep.
It's awful. And they are often arrested for the murder.

"but they are murdered for being gay!"
Sure. But apparently, since we're ok with just letting people be homophobes and not convincing them to cut it out, thats fine with you.


Just look at all these people, being mean to gays.
Well, what do you want us to do about it, if not change their minds?
What you just said was so profoundly ignorant I have no idea how to even BEGIN addressing it, though i've tried.

[Temujinn]

I'm a homosexual, and I'm proud of it. My friends and family know it.

What bothers me is 'gayness'. Gay is a word that straight bigots conjured up that's now entered the mainstream. But I'd like to talk more specifically about 'gay culture': the incredibly offensive stereotype that associates men like me with the effeminate, pink-loving, women's underwear-donning attention seekers that are ruining the LGBT movement and turning away moderates!

In most TV shows and movies, 'gays' aren't shown as normal human beings, but as ridiculously flamboyant weaklings who are either obsessed with fashion or hair. This shallow interpretation of what homosexuals are like is incredibly offensive and bigoted! I can't help but facepalm whenever I see some fool say something like 'Gay marriage in Costa Rica? FABULOUS!'

I consider myself a normal homosexual who acts like anyone else. I'm not effeminate. I go to the gym and work out. I care little about my appearance. I don't say 'oh my god you look FABULOUS darling!' and similar dialect all the time. And my boyfriend isn't like that either, who shares a similar view on the culture that is in reality a total mockery of homosexuals.

Discuss, NationStates. What do you think of what I've said?

In other words you wont define your entire "Self" by what you fuck, you wont submit to the pigeonhold that has been placed on homosexuals by a vocal group who have determined that is how you must act, if you are a "real" and "unashamed" homosexual. Good luck with that, I suspect the twinks will give you much hate for not knuckling to the prescribed role the Gay "Community" has deemed you must assume. Still, good on you for calling bullshit on the whole thing.

[Ostroeuropa]

Not so.
It makes people think that gays must be like the priders.
It means that a stereotype is enforced that if you act normally, you must be straight.

sauuuuuuuce.

Numerous people in this thread.

[Faolinn]

Well this argument went just about as I expected it. The sad truth is that some people live up to stereotypes and those people get all the attention and some times that's reinforced by societal stigma. Society regarded gays as "unmanly" so they hit them with the stereotype which a number thereof probably internalized or adopted in an attempt to in a grand twist of irony claim for their own and forge an identity separate from the community that exiled them. I'd reckon that a fair number also decided to fight the stereotype by being anything but. Apparently the op seems to be coming from this second camp of thought.

It's a majority, almost certainly.
10% of the population are gay remember.
1/10 people you see on the street.
Now how many times have you met an honest to god Prider?

Multiple times though not too often. I know several people who are one shout of "flame on" from being the Human Torch's long lost gay children. However I cannot say that most that gay people that I know do. Funny thing though... Every time they get to talking about stuff like this, almost the exact same argument occurs in real life that's going on here right now.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

As a straight man, perhaps I don't get it, but I'm not exactly sure why it's up to gay people to tone things down in case the hetero folk feel uncomfortable. I don't especially mind (and I've learned to deeply appreciate certain aspects of queer culture from my own perspective), and frankly, attempts to make everyone assimilate seem from this outsider's perspective just as fruitless as attempts to make everyone dress in drag would be. This culture and method of personal expression has developed in the face of oppression over the course of centuries. It's symbolized and signaled safety and acceptance to the oppressed and the marginalized. It's even been the source of entire code languages.

And now some gay people want to escape it because it makes them feel less "normal"? Fine. That's your business. It's going to be far easier for you to assimilate into heteronormative culture in the West than at any time in modern history, so have at it. But don't put down those who still find joy in the society that was built by those who came before, and only grew stronger in the face of police raids, gay-bashing, mockery, discrimination in employment and housing, and neared extinction in the face of neglect by the government once HIV hit. It's a wonderful, radiant, and--if you'll forgive the term--fabulous culture, and I celebrate those who celebrate it.

[Ostroeuropa]

It's a majority, almost certainly.
10% of the population are gay remember.
1/10 people you see on the street.
Now how many times have you met an honest to god Prider?

Multiple times though not too often. I know several people who are one shout of "flame on" from being the Human Torch's long lost gay children. However I cannot say that most that gay people that I know do. Funny thing though... Every time they get to talking about stuff like this, almost the exact same argument occurs real life that's going on here right now.

As i've mentioned previously, every homosexual and bisexual local whom I know in my town is firmly against the priders.

[The Steel Magnolia]

There is no victory except on their terms for fucks sake.

BULLSHIT.

I refuse to accept that the only way I can achieve equality is by conforming to normative society.

Fuck. That.

In many places you still have equal rights.

In no place in the world do we have equal rights.

What do you keep complaining about?
But theres still homophobes!
Well, no shit.
Because we havn't changed their minds.
What the fuck are you even arguing for if not to change their minds?
Jesus christ.

Just like if someone hates feminism for having 'fem' in the name, they are not worth convincing at all. They will either come to terms with it by themselves, or not at all.

So I'll wait. I'll live my life, in defiance of the norms of popular society and popular will. In defiance of homophobes, and everyone who thinks I should abandon my culture and my community on their say so.

I have no obligation, whatsoever, to live my life according to those whims.

"Look how many gays are murdered!"
Yep.
It's awful. And they are often arrested for the murder.

"but they are murdered for being gay!"
Sure. But apparently, since we're ok with just letting people be homophobes and not convincing them to cut it out, thats fine with you.

Fantastic strawman.

The solution, though, is not to suddenly stop being gay, or moreover, to stop suddenly being queer. Sure, if we act just like everyone else maybe a tiny fraction of the violence would be reduced.

but it's not worth the price.

Just look at all these people, being mean to gays.
Well, what do you want us to do about it, if not change their minds?
What you just said was so profoundly ignorant I have no idea how to even BEGIN addressing it, though i've tried.

I want to live. I want to survive. i want to exist, and to say to all those homophobes and transphobes "Hi, I'll live my life, how I want. My people will live their lives, how they want. And even if we didn't act 'flamboyant', even if we didn't 'shove it in your faces', you might like us then? fuck it, you're still homophobes if the only reason you hate gays is because we dare to be prideful of our sexuality."

the solution to homophobia is not to go back in the closet.

[The Steel Magnolia]

As a straight man, perhaps I don't get it, but I'm not exactly sure why it's up to gay people to tone things down in case the hetero folk feel uncomfortable. I don't especially mind (and I've learned to deeply appreciate certain aspects of queer culture from my own perspective), and frankly, attempts to make everyone assimilate seem from this outsider's perspective just as fruitless as attempts to make everyone dress in drag would be. This culture and method of personal expression has developed in the face of oppression over the course of centuries. It's symbolized and signaled safety and acceptance to the oppressed and the marginalized. It's even been the source of entire code languages.

And now some gay people want to escape it because it makes them feel less "normal"? Fine. That's your business. It's going to be far easier for you to assimilate into heteronormative culture in the West than at any time in modern history, so have at it. But don't put down those who still find joy in the society that was built by those who came before, and only grew stronger in the face of police raids, gay-bashing, mockery, discrimination in employment and housing, and neared extinction in the face of neglect by the government once HIV hit. It's a wonderful, radiant, and--if you'll forgive the term--fabulous culture, and I celebrate those who celebrate it.

thank you.

fucking preach. motherfucking preach.

[The Steel Magnolia]

sauuuuuuuce.

Numerous people in this thread.

and i care what they think, why?

[The Parkus Empire]

if you act normally, you must be straight.

This is the problem, right here. It's like people who think "acting white" is what's "normal". Anyone who does not behave as an ideal, straight, cisgenedered white, is "abnormal".

[Nailed to the Perch]

As a straight man, perhaps I don't get it, but I'm not exactly sure why it's up to gay people to tone things down in case the hetero folk feel uncomfortable. I don't especially mind (and I've learned to deeply appreciate certain aspects of queer culture from my own perspective), and frankly, attempts to make everyone assimilate seem from this outsider's perspective just as fruitless as attempts to make everyone dress in drag would be. This culture and method of personal expression has developed in the face of oppression over the course of centuries. It's symbolized and signaled safety and acceptance to the oppressed and the marginalized. It's even been the source of entire code languages.

And now some gay people want to escape it because it makes them feel less "normal"? Fine. That's your business. It's going to be far easier for you to assimilate into heteronormative culture in the West than at any time in modern history, so have at it. But don't put down those who still find joy in the society that was built by those who came before, and only grew stronger in the face of police raids, gay-bashing, mockery, discrimination in employment and housing, and neared extinction in the face of neglect by the government once HIV hit. It's a wonderful, radiant, and--if you'll forgive the term--fabulous culture, and I celebrate those who celebrate it.

This is one of those posts that really should end the thread.

[Poopookakapeepeeshire]

gay lesbian straight bi transgender it matters not well poop on everyone ... its only fair

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

I don't know Serginho and here we don't have at issue him as a person. Whether he is nice or not, or if he is honest, if beautiful, or if ugly ... but what if he wants to use some purse, makeup or take a picture idolizing Paris Hilton? Because of that he should be shamed for being one of us? Because of that he (and many others who act just like him) are responsible for the defeats that the gay community has been suffering in the social sphere? I mean, so, is it only worth to keep posting Instagram photos of we pretending we are really macho straight-like guys, everybody wearing polo shirts, making thumbs up to the camera? Oh, PLEASE! No one is forced to kiss the fag in the lips or wear things purposed at the female market just because of what we like in bed, but we have to understand that some people feel good being that way. Not only are them in their own right, but they are also taking a much more political and brave stand than trying to "infiltrate" in the "normal" world by trying to impose heteronormativity as their own lifestyle.

Going back to recent events, it is very easy to protest and say that fundamentalist preachers do not represent us. Everyone knows they are all really sick and even the religious folk are already revolting against certain kinds of deeply prejudiced speech. But we have to be careful, because it is also easy to point to that sissy faggot (always bearing in mind that the other fingers always are all directed at you  ) and end up repeating the same old talk that our enemies direct at us: "nobody is born that way so it is a sick lifestyle can be cured, such behavior is disrespectful against the rules of nature and society, blablabla".

More than ever, if you are gay and cares about other people's rights, allow yourself. Be free. Be fabulous.

[Ostroeuropa]

if you act normally, you must be straight.

This is the problem, right here. It's like people who think "acting white" is what's "normal". Anyone who does not behave as an ideal, straight, cisgenedered white, is "abnormal".

I agree completely.
And matters aren't helped, AT ALL by taking people who don't act like that, and saying "This is (Demographic)'s culture."

[The Parkus Empire]

As a straight man, perhaps I don't get it, but I'm not exactly sure why it's up to gay people to tone things down in case the hetero folk feel uncomfortable. I don't especially mind (and I've learned to deeply appreciate certain aspects of queer culture from my own perspective), and frankly, attempts to make everyone assimilate seem from this outsider's perspective just as fruitless as attempts to make everyone dress in drag would be. This culture and method of personal expression has developed in the face of oppression over the course of centuries. It's symbolized and signaled safety and acceptance to the oppressed and the marginalized. It's even been the source of entire code languages.

And now some gay people want to escape it because it makes them feel less "normal"? Fine. That's your business. It's going to be far easier for you to assimilate into heteronormative culture in the West than at any time in modern history, so have at it. But don't put down those who still find joy in the society that was built by those who came before, and only grew stronger in the face of police raids, gay-bashing, mockery, discrimination in employment and housing, and neared extinction in the face of neglect by the government once HIV hit. It's a wonderful, radiant, and--if you'll forgive the term--fabulous culture, and I celebrate those who celebrate it.

I think this is the least refutable post I've ever seen.

[Las Tierras Verdes]

I'm a homosexual, and I'm proud of it. My friends and family know it.

What bothers me is 'gayness'. Gay is a word that straight bigots conjured up that's now entered the mainstream. But I'd like to talk more specifically about 'gay culture': the incredibly offensive stereotype that associates men like me with the effeminate, pink-loving, women's underwear-donning attention seekers that are ruining the LGBT movement and turning away moderates!

In most TV shows and movies, 'gays' aren't shown as normal human beings, but as ridiculously flamboyant weaklings who are either obsessed with fashion or hair. This shallow interpretation of what homosexuals are like is incredibly offensive and bigoted! I can't help but facepalm whenever I see some fool say something like 'Gay marriage in Costa Rica? FABULOUS!'

I consider myself a normal homosexual who acts like anyone else. I'm not effeminate. I go to the gym and work out. I care little about my appearance. I don't say 'oh my god you look FABULOUS darling!' and similar dialect all the time. And my boyfriend isn't like that either, who shares a similar view on the culture that is in reality a total mockery of homosexuals.

Discuss, NationStates. What do you think of what I've said?

You're offended by stereotypes?

That's not news, anyone with a brain knows that most homosexuals are normal people, and everyone can get offended by the tinniest little thing. It's like a Jewish Kazakh being offended after watching 'Borat', despite the fact that they weren't trying to offend people, they were simply trying to make a movie so stupid and stereotypical, it was funny.

People will always be offended by stereotypes, but just because someone stereotypes someone, doesn't mean they're trying to offend someone. Now maybe in some examples, they intend to, but this isn't usually the case in comedy shows or movies, comedy is never meant to be offensive(atleast not real comedy).

[Ostroeuropa]

There is no victory except on their terms for fucks sake.

BULLSHIT.

I refuse to accept that the only way I can achieve equality is by conforming to normative society.

Fuck. That.

In many places you still have equal rights.

In no place in the world do we have equal rights.

What do you keep complaining about?
But theres still homophobes!
Well, no shit.
Because we havn't changed their minds.
What the fuck are you even arguing for if not to change their minds?
Jesus christ.

Just like if someone hates feminism for having 'fem' in the name, they are not worth convincing at all. They will either come to terms with it by themselves, or not at all.

So I'll wait. I'll live my life, in defiance of the norms of popular society and popular will. In defiance of homophobes, and everyone who thinks I should abandon my culture and my community on their say so.

I have no obligation, whatsoever, to live my life according to those whims.

"Look how many gays are murdered!"
Yep.
It's awful. And they are often arrested for the murder.

"but they are murdered for being gay!"
Sure. But apparently, since we're ok with just letting people be homophobes and not convincing them to cut it out, thats fine with you.

Fantastic strawman.

The solution, though, is not to suddenly stop being gay, or moreover, to stop suddenly being queer. Sure, if we act just like everyone else maybe a tiny fraction of the violence would be reduced.

but it's not worth the price.

Just look at all these people, being mean to gays.
Well, what do you want us to do about it, if not change their minds?
What you just said was so profoundly ignorant I have no idea how to even BEGIN addressing it, though i've tried.

I want to live. I want to survive. i want to exist, and to say to all those homophobes and transphobes "Hi, I'll live my life, how I want. My people will live their lives, how they want. And even if we didn't act 'flamboyant', even if we didn't 'shove it in your faces', you might like us then? fuck it, you're still homophobes if the only reason you hate gays is because we dare to be prideful of our sexuality."

the solution to homophobia is not to go back in the closet.

Then do it on your own terms. Don't use us as human shields for fucks sake.
Stop calling it gay pride.
Don't throw another group into the crossfire along with you to end societies oppression of your subculture.

[Cill Airne]

I'm a homosexual, and I'm proud of it. My friends and family know it.

What bothers me is 'gayness'. Gay is a word that straight bigots conjured up that's now entered the mainstream. But I'd like to talk more specifically about 'gay culture': the incredibly offensive stereotype that associates men like me with the effeminate, pink-loving, women's underwear-donning attention seekers that are ruining the LGBT movement and turning away moderates!

In most TV shows and movies, 'gays' aren't shown as normal human beings, but as ridiculously flamboyant weaklings who are either obsessed with fashion or hair. This shallow interpretation of what homosexuals are like is incredibly offensive and bigoted! I can't help but facepalm whenever I see some fool say something like 'Gay marriage in Costa Rica? FABULOUS!'

I consider myself a normal homosexual who acts like anyone else. I'm not effeminate. I go to the gym and work out. I care little about my appearance. I don't say 'oh my god you look FABULOUS darling!' and similar dialect all the time. And my boyfriend isn't like that either, who shares a similar view on the culture that is in reality a total mockery of homosexuals.

Discuss, NationStates. What do you think of what I've said?

It really bothers me when people say "are you really gay? You act so straight/you don't seem like you're gay/you're to guyish to be gay" - which has happened a lot! And, while some gays really are that effeminate, really do say things like "fabulous" I just wish people were able to understand that not all gay guys are like that, not all gay guys are the same.

[Poopookakapeepeeshire]

ive heard that the giu has a "fuck what you want" thing going on and it seems to being working just fine