Discussion on Libertarianism

[The Realm of God]

What's Section 8 Housing? If its terrible, improve it and I would suppose whatever it may be It's better than living on the street.

Section 8 is government subsidized housing for the poor.

It's terrible and provides disincentives for the people to improve their situations.

Perhaps, but until the Private Sector designs low cost housing, in a safe area, that can be bought via a reasonable mortgage affordable by someone on the minimum wage, then I guess the government option is all that is available.

[Dalmacie]

Not when there's no profit motive no.

And there is not profit to be made from improving people's lives, obviously.

Uhm...Yes.It's good that we see eye to eye.

If there was a profit to it, then why did we even have all these government programs?

Then why, back in the Industrial Revolution, when misery was the norm, did nobody capitalize on the amazing idea of helping people, since you know...It's so profitable.

Interesting.

Yeah cos freedom sucks.

Relation between libertarianism and freedom is...What?

I am all for freedom. But I guess that's just a libertarian thing.

I must be a closeted totalitarian.

[Bottle]

And the private sector is not capable of doing this?

Not when there's no profit motive no.

Ehhhhh...not entirely accurate.

The private sector is more than capable of it. It's just that the private sector will only do so insofar as it is profitable.

It's like how multiple analyses have proven that the MBTA is simply not a profitable business venture, and if one's goal is to turn a profit then the best business decision for a private owner would be to simply shut down the T. Now, the CITY would lose out, the PEOPLE would lose out, but the OWNER would win in that situation.

Same goes for many for-profit ventures. What is in the best interests of the shareholders is frequently not what is in the best interests of the population at large.

[Trezchoix]

Yet all of you im debating with are consistently saying that I said socialism is bad its not I don't know im on the fence about it. Your also putting words in my mouth because of your failed debates due to the fact im not a extreme libertarian. and if you would look back on another post I made I condemn extremism. Im a moderate libertarian that uses common sense and will compromise on issues if you can show there positive and negative sides so long as the negatives (A) don't infringe rights (b) Accumulated large sums of debt (C) will work. In the US they're have ass attempt at socialism is appalling if you want socialism and a socialist society. Study the socialist countries the ones that work and the ones that don't meet with financial advisers and make a plan (A)that will pay for its self
(B) not infringe rights (C) not hurt the private market (D) never accumulate debt it can pay off.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Uhm...Yes.It's good that we see eye to eye.

If there was a profit to it, then why did we even have all these government programs?

Then why, back in the Industrial Revolution, when misery was the norm, did nobody capitalize on the amazing idea of helping people, since you know...It's so profitable.

...
...
They did.

[Death Metal]

Libertarianism is stupid.

Yeah cos freedom sucks.

"Four legs good, two legs bad".

[Dalmacie]

Uhm...Yes.It's good that we see eye to eye.

If there was a profit to it, then why did we even have all these government programs?

Then why, back in the Industrial Revolution, when misery was the norm, did nobody capitalize on the amazing idea of helping people, since you know...It's so profitable.

...
...
They did.

Through charity.

Programs that are as successful as today?

Hell no.

There were no programs like today, not as successful, not as wide-reaching, not as helpful.

Their charity only did so much.

As evidenced by the living standard of the working class.

Which was shit.

[Uieurnthlaal]

What's Section 8 Housing? If its terrible, improve it and I would suppose whatever it may be It's better than living on the street.

Section 8 is government subsidized housing for the poor.

It's terrible and provides disincentives for the people to improve their situations.

"Incentives" alone do not create housing with no money. Why on earth would the private sector build a house for someone so poor that they can't afford a house no matter how hard they work?
The private exists to make money, not to help people. The government exists to help people, not to make money. Always, remember that.

[Galloism]

And the private sector is not capable of doing this?

Generally speaking, it's unprofitable.

Private industry and its antics regarding profitability sometimes makes me sick.

Give you a good example right now. I broke the plastic eyelet on my shifter cable on one end. It's about a ten cent part, if that. It's a piece of plastic, maybe 3/4 on an inch across, with a certain hole pattern.

That is, it would be ten cents, if you could buy it. See, Chrysler doesn't sell the eyelet alone. They only sell it in conjunction with the $270 shifter cable. No one else can make it because its a proprietary eyelet of a certain design, which is patented. Any other design won't fit unless you change the entire fucking shifter mechanism, which costs about $500 plus labor, for those keeping score.

Efficiency my ass. Profit is more important than efficiency always.

[Uieurnthlaal]

Generally speaking, it's unprofitable.

Private industry and its antics regarding profitability sometimes makes me sick.

Give you a good example right now. I broke the plastic eyelet on my shifter cable on one end. It's about a ten cent part, if that. It's a piece of plastic, maybe 3/4 on an inch across, with a certain hole pattern.

That is, it would be ten cents, if you could buy it. See, Chrysler doesn't sell the eyelet alone. They only sell it in conjunction with the $270 shifter cable. No one else can make it because its a proprietary eyelet of a certain design, which is patented. Any other design won't fit unless you change the entire fucking shifter mechanism, which costs about $500 plus labor, for those keeping score.

Efficiency my ass. Profit is more important than efficiency always.

Hopefully, those sort of problems will start to go away with the proliferation of 3D printers.

[Dalmacie]

Hopefully, those sort of problems will start to go away with the proliferation of 3D printers.

And 3-D printed guns. *nods*

[Bottle]

Generally speaking, it's unprofitable.

Private industry and its antics regarding profitability sometimes makes me sick.

Give you a good example right now. I broke the plastic eyelet on my shifter cable on one end. It's about a ten cent part, if that. It's a piece of plastic, maybe 3/4 on an inch across, with a certain hole pattern.

That is, it would be ten cents, if you could buy it. See, Chrysler doesn't sell the eyelet alone. They only sell it in conjunction with the $270 shifter cable. No one else can make it because its a proprietary eyelet of a certain design, which is patented. Any other design won't fit unless you change the entire fucking shifter mechanism, which costs about $500 plus labor, for those keeping score.

Efficiency my ass. Profit is more important than efficiency always.

And what annoys the shit out of me is that if you point this out, you'll have free-marketers screaming, "WHAT, SO THE COMPANY IS EVIL BECAUSE THEY WANT TO MAKE MONEY???"

No, they're not evil, their drive to make profit is entirely sensible. Just like a lion's desire to hunt down a gazelle is entirely reasonable and not at all evil. But the gazelle is likewise reasonable for not wanting to get eaten. And consumers are reasonable for not wanting to be squeezed for every last penny the company can get.

Which is how capitalism IS SUPPOSED TO FUCKING WORK. The whole point is that the company is pushing for higher prices, and consumers are pushing for lower prices. Why the fuck people claim to support capitalism when they really only support the first half of that statement is beyond me.

[The Realm of God]

Section 8 is government subsidized housing for the poor.

It's terrible and provides disincentives for the people to improve their situations.

"Incentives" alone do not create housing with no money. Why on earth would the private sector build a house for someone so poor that they can't afford a house no matter how hard they work?
The private exists to make money, not to help people. The government exists to help people, not to make money. Always, remember that.

Philanthropy in the private sector does exist for some, though you need to be very lucky to get noticed by someone who wants to help and even luckier to get help that doesn't have strings attached.

[Sibirsky]

Section 8 is government subsidized housing for the poor.

It's terrible and provides disincentives for the people to improve their situations.

Perhaps, but until the Private Sector designs low cost housing, in a safe area, that can be bought via a reasonable mortgage affordable by someone on the minimum wage, then I guess the government option is all that is available.

It can, if it was allowed to.

Section 8 is rent only.

[Death Metal]

Private industry and its antics regarding profitability sometimes makes me sick.

Give you a good example right now. I broke the plastic eyelet on my shifter cable on one end. It's about a ten cent part, if that. It's a piece of plastic, maybe 3/4 on an inch across, with a certain hole pattern.

That is, it would be ten cents, if you could buy it. See, Chrysler doesn't sell the eyelet alone. They only sell it in conjunction with the $270 shifter cable. No one else can make it because its a proprietary eyelet of a certain design, which is patented. Any other design won't fit unless you change the entire fucking shifter mechanism, which costs about $500 plus labor, for those keeping score.

Efficiency my ass. Profit is more important than efficiency always.

Hopefully, those sort of problems will start to go away with the proliferation of 3D printers.

Hopefully before the religious right realizes that 3D printers can be used to make dildos and have a shitfest.

[Galloism]

Private industry and its antics regarding profitability sometimes makes me sick.

Give you a good example right now. I broke the plastic eyelet on my shifter cable on one end. It's about a ten cent part, if that. It's a piece of plastic, maybe 3/4 on an inch across, with a certain hole pattern.

That is, it would be ten cents, if you could buy it. See, Chrysler doesn't sell the eyelet alone. They only sell it in conjunction with the $270 shifter cable. No one else can make it because its a proprietary eyelet of a certain design, which is patented. Any other design won't fit unless you change the entire fucking shifter mechanism, which costs about $500 plus labor, for those keeping score.

Efficiency my ass. Profit is more important than efficiency always.

Hopefully, those sort of problems will start to go away with the proliferation of 3D printers.

You'd still have to craft it yourself and give your mechanic plausible deniability. A mechanic who created the part and sold it would be guilty of copyright infringement unless such laws were changed.

[Uieurnthlaal]

"Incentives" alone do not create housing with no money. Why on earth would the private sector build a house for someone so poor that they can't afford a house no matter how hard they work?
The private exists to make money, not to help people. The government exists to help people, not to make money. Always, remember that.

Philanthropy in the private sector does exist for some, though you need to be very lucky to get noticed by someone who wants to help and even luckier to get help that doesn't have strings attached.

Philanthropy? Bah, humbug. It's just a publicity stunt, to make even more money.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Private industry and its antics regarding profitability sometimes makes me sick.

Give you a good example right now. I broke the plastic eyelet on my shifter cable on one end. It's about a ten cent part, if that. It's a piece of plastic, maybe 3/4 on an inch across, with a certain hole pattern.

That is, it would be ten cents, if you could buy it. See, Chrysler doesn't sell the eyelet alone. They only sell it in conjunction with the $270 shifter cable. No one else can make it because its a proprietary eyelet of a certain design, which is patented. Any other design won't fit unless you change the entire fucking shifter mechanism, which costs about $500 plus labor, for those keeping score.

Efficiency my ass. Profit is more important than efficiency always.

And what annoys the shit out of me is that if you point this out, you'll have free-marketers screaming, "WHAT, SO THE COMPANY IS EVIL BECAUSE THEY WANT TO MAKE MONEY???"
....

Actually, in many cases they'll scream in the same way others would.

Proprietary designs and patents aren't very popular with 'free-marketers' (or, as you should address as henceforth, 'free marketeers' )

[Sibirsky]

And there is not profit to be made from improving people's lives, obviously.

Uhm...Yes.It's good that we see eye to eye.

If there was a profit to it, then why did we even have all these government programs?

Because the government is already doing it?

Then why, back in the Industrial Revolution, when misery was the norm, did nobody capitalize on the amazing idea of helping people, since you know...It's so profitable.

Misery was the norm prior to the Industrial Revolution as well. It takes time.

[Death Metal]

"Incentives" alone do not create housing with no money. Why on earth would the private sector build a house for someone so poor that they can't afford a house no matter how hard they work?
The private exists to make money, not to help people. The government exists to help people, not to make money. Always, remember that.

Philanthropy in the private sector does exist for some, though you need to be very lucky to get noticed by someone who wants to help and even luckier to get help that doesn't have strings attached.

And then there's "charities" who spend most of their money on brand awareness or in the case of Susan G Komen suing other charities for copyright infringement.

[Sibirsky]

...
...
They did.

Through charity.

Programs that are as successful as today?

Hell no.

There were no programs like today, not as successful, not as wide-reaching, not as helpful.

Their charity only did so much.

As evidenced by the living standard of the working class.

Which was shit.

Successful? Poverty was declining. Until the government started its War on Poverty,

Ever notice that we get more of, whatever it is we declare war on?

[The Realm of God]

Private industry and its antics regarding profitability sometimes makes me sick.

Give you a good example right now. I broke the plastic eyelet on my shifter cable on one end. It's about a ten cent part, if that. It's a piece of plastic, maybe 3/4 on an inch across, with a certain hole pattern.

That is, it would be ten cents, if you could buy it. See, Chrysler doesn't sell the eyelet alone. They only sell it in conjunction with the $270 shifter cable. No one else can make it because its a proprietary eyelet of a certain design, which is patented. Any other design won't fit unless you change the entire fucking shifter mechanism, which costs about $500 plus labor, for those keeping score.

Efficiency my ass. Profit is more important than efficiency always.

And what annoys the shit out of me is that if you point this out, you'll have free-marketers screaming, "WHAT, SO THE COMPANY IS EVIL BECAUSE THEY WANT TO MAKE MONEY???"

No, they're not evil, their drive to make profit is entirely sensible. Just like a lion's desire to hunt down a gazelle is entirely reasonable and not at all evil. But the gazelle is likewise reasonable for not wanting to get eaten. And consumers are reasonable for not wanting to be squeezed for every last penny the company can get.

Which is how capitalism IS SUPPOSED TO FUCKING WORK. The whole point is that the company is pushing for higher prices, and consumers are pushing for lower prices. Why the fuck people claim to support capitalism when they really only support the first half of that statement is beyond me.

Which is why the average Libertarian is about, oh I don't know...14 years old. Capitalists mostly move on from the position after taking their first basic economics classes. Not to say that there aren't intelligent libertarians but you can almost certainly rule out the 'taxation is theft, and go read Atlas Shrugged' crowd as having never taken an economics course.

[Uieurnthlaal]

Hopefully, those sort of problems will start to go away with the proliferation of 3D printers.

You'd still have to craft it yourself and give your mechanic plausible deniability. A mechanic who created the part and sold it would be guilty of copyright infringement unless such laws were changed.

Those sort of copyright laws are practically unenforceable anyway. All I'm saying is that, hopefully the proliferation of 3d printers will be able to counteract those terrible money-making scams, and shift large corporations' policies to a more logical standpoint.

[Dalmacie]

Uhm...Yes.It's good that we see eye to eye.

If there was a profit to it, then why did we even have all these government programs?

Because the government is already doing it?

No, no, my question is: Since the Private Sector can do all of this, without the incentive for profit, so in an affordable manner, why did the government have to do it instead?

Perhaps it's because the private sector can't?

Because it wants profit?

And there's no way to make profit off of giving a house to someone with no income?

[Lerodan Chinamerica]

Yeah cos freedom sucks.

How very black and white.

I'm not a full libertarian. Total freedom (i.e. no government, fully legal drugs) isn't cool.